If Ken Griffey Jr. was unanimous no will be, but Mariano certainly is a no brainer.
OT: Mariano Rivera
- Thread starter miker183
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Looks like MR is 50 saves ahead and gave up 40 less runs in 100+ more innings. They both avg 39 saves per 162 games played but That is the only number that is equal and I always loved Hoffman they just aren not equal in any way.
Read your own post! What do closers do? Close games. What were their career averages on closing games? Identical. And you conclude that they are not equal in any way? They are equal in the only thing that matters.
Oh good. Personal attacks. Nice touch.
WAR is a weak measure of quality overall. Yogi's was only 59 and Sandy Koufax was 49, whereas the legendary Scott Rolen and Rick Reuschel were both about 70. Tell you what. You can have Rolen and Reuschel; I'll take Yogi and Sandy, who are arguably the best at their positions ever. WAR. Good grief.
Again (and again and again), when you look at what they were supposed to do: close games, they are nearly identical in saves per opportunity. Everything else is window dressing. BUT, I will give you the postseason, no questions. Mo shined in the postseason. And he fully, fully deserves to be in the HOF. Does he deserve an honor that no one has ever gotten before? Not even close.
Statistics are obviously pretty complicated for you, since you only seem to understand what saves are. WAR is best used for comparisons when the players play the same position as defense is taken into account. As a matter of fact WAR is calculated completely differently for pitchers.Yogi's was is fifth all time amongst catchers. Try and keep up, will you? At least Google some of the BS that you're spewing first.
I’m sorry but 39 saves 2.21 is a ton better than 39 saves 2.71
But one of the things I hate...having to use this comparison. Hoffman was great too. Just not in the same breath as Mariano...and follow all my other baseball posts, I am a Mets fan.
Yeah, I have a lot of trouble with statistics! I'm sure you're much better at them than I am.
You seriously are bringing up that WAR is calculated differently for pitchers? Such insight! The problem is that it is not calculated differently for closers than it is for starters. Which is why Rivera's WAR is so feeble compared to tons of starting pitchers. Which is just one reason why WAR is a weak statistic. Not awful, but with flaws, as is the case with almost any summary statistic. WAR's particular weakness, in my opinion, is that it does not take the context of the game into account. If a player singles in two runs in the bottom of the tenth with two outs for a come from behind win in extra innings, that counts no more than a single hit in the top of the ninth with nobody on and a 10 run difference between the two teams. WAR for pitchers was developed for starters and applied to closers. It shouldn't be. Plus, WAR is a cumulative statistic, not averaged out for years, or games in the case of closers, played. And of course, there actually is not a single thing called WAR; there are a whole bunch of different versions of it.
The way this plays out for closers as being bogus is that if a team is up by three runs in the ninth and the closer gives up three singles and two earned runs, but still wins the game, he is penalized for the three singles and the earned runs a certain amount. If, on another occasion, he comes in with his team up one run, and he gives up three singles and two earned runs and loses the game, it's all counted the same. But in one situation, he merely gave up two meaningless runs; in the other situation, he blew the save. WAR doesn't care. It thinks the two situations are identical. Apparently you do, too. I don't.
When I bring in my closer, I want him to successfully close the game. Apparently you just want to tally singles and the like. That's why you believe in WAR instead of saves. Go right ahead. I'll take the closer who closes.
I'm a Mets fan, too. And I think Mariano was great and better than Hoffman. Just not a whole lot. And he wasn't. They each averaged 39 saves a year over long careers. But Rivera has a more impressive post season record. Best closer ever. Not one of the very best baseball players ever.
As a long time Padre fan I love Hoffman. I know the whole Enter Sandman thing but being in Petco and have him come into Hell's Bells was a thrilling experience.He was the dominant closer in the NL for a decade. He had some great performances that only a Padre fan would know about.
Example: 1996 the Padres trail the Dodgers by 1 game going into a season ending three game set in LA. Padres sweep the series with Hoffman slamming the door in all three games to give them the NL West flag.
All that being said Rivera was the GREATEST closer of all time and a classy human being. I say that without the least bit of hesitation.
Example: 1996 the Padres trail the Dodgers by 1 game going into a season ending three game set in LA. Padres sweep the series with Hoffman slamming the door in all three games to give them the NL West flag.
All that being said Rivera was the GREATEST closer of all time and a classy human being. I say that without the least bit of hesitation.
[roll]
You know, saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. But keep trying!
You mean like your little rolling heads, or the folks who want to talk about secondary statistics to closers actually closing games.
It's like the '69 Cubs. Immensely better than the '69 Mets on paper. They just didn't win. And winning is kind of what the game is about. But keep those rolling heads rolling T. It's about all you got.
Stop it. That's insulting. You don't have to tear someone else down to elevate your guy. Hoffman was a GREAT closer. Mariano was the GREATEST.
I’m not getting in this argument.
Lee Smith was the best I ever faced.
And Colbert, John DiAquisto brought some serious gas.
Lee Smith was the best I ever faced.
And Colbert, John DiAquisto brought some serious gas.
I always thought that Lee Smith had that little bit of craziness about him like he maybe couldn't really control that fastball and you better be on your toes.
Any reality to that?
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Agree with that assessment completely. I also think Petco was the perfect park for Hoffman as well. Incredibly different pitchers as closers.
But here's the problem with WAR, which is being touted so highly. According to the WAR statistic, if the Yankees had had just an average American League closer instead of Rivera all those years, they would only have won 3 more games per season. Cannot imagine that anybody actually believes that. As I've always told my students: "If the data don't make sense, don't believe them."
I remember D'Acquisto with that little pornstache.
Zap, Did you ever face J.R. Richard?? He must have been frightening!
I don't think giving up runs is secondary...That seems about as strange of a statement as I have ever heard.
I mean come-on- Happ and Porcello had a ton more wins then deGrom. Don't think anyone is trading them straight up...
JR he is the single player that you really have to wonder how great he would have been if not for losing him so young.
I'm not even talking about Mo's chances at a unanimous vote. My point is Hoffman ain't touching him.
You're pretty slow. Both WAR and saves, and every other pitching metric that exists shows that Mariano is in a league of his own. You can't hang on to 1 statistic when so many variables are at play.
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It's rough, but it sums up the difference between the two players. In their biggest moments, one buckled under the pressure (like many do) and the other raised his game to legendary status and became the greatest post season pitcher in the history of the sport.
#unanimous
Every time? Or did he give up a bit to Luis Gonzalez to lose a WS? Yes, he was great. He wasn't perfect.
Nobody is ever perfect in baseball (which is why his PS ERA is 0.70 and not 0.00). But he is still the greatest post season pitcher in history, even if an "excuse me" hit happens to fall in the right place.
No disrespect for your opinion.
Minimizing the roll of the world class closer is a place you don’t want to go.
Their presence is mind and game altering, ask Stanton on the Yankees how excited he is to hit off the Redsox bullpen next year.
He not minimizing anything, I think he’s saying he doesn’t see how the specialist gets the unanimous honor.
Best ever at his position? No brainer.
HoFer? No brainer.
1st Ballot? No brainer.
Possible highest ever election %? Wouldn’t surprise any of us.
Unanimous? We’ll see.
e5fdny got the idea. I am not one who is all soup nazi about the HoF.. but in terms of the scope of baseball, "the closer" is a relatively new "position". And since no one playing a full time regular position has gotten a unanimous ballot.. to have the first be a specialist who throws a fraction of the innings of a starter or even a middle reliever (that middle reliever line is probably wrong.. see below)
Goose Gossage once threw 130 innings... in 3 different seasons. Gossage averaged 118 IP. Rivera averaged 78 innings pitched, only once going over 100 in his 2nd year. Tom Seaver averaged 250 innings pitched. Randy Johnson averaged 230 IP. Pedro Martinez 217 IP.
Gossage once said this about Rivera.. "Don't tell me [Rivera's] the best relief pitcher of all-time until he can do the same job I did. He may be the best modern closer, but you have to compare apples to apples. Do what we did".
So.. if I had a vote I would not give him a 1st ballot unanimous selection. With the use of so many pitchers per game, I wonder how hard it will be for starters to make the HoF in the future.
Goose Gossage once threw 130 innings... in 3 different seasons. Gossage averaged 118 IP. Rivera averaged 78 innings pitched, only once going over 100 in his 2nd year. Tom Seaver averaged 250 innings pitched. Randy Johnson averaged 230 IP. Pedro Martinez 217 IP.
Gossage once said this about Rivera.. "Don't tell me [Rivera's] the best relief pitcher of all-time until he can do the same job I did. He may be the best modern closer, but you have to compare apples to apples. Do what we did".
So.. if I had a vote I would not give him a 1st ballot unanimous selection. With the use of so many pitchers per game, I wonder how hard it will be for starters to make the HoF in the future.
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Had the closer roll not evolved and the Yankees asked MR to do what Goose did in the 70s.
He would have performed those duties at a higher level than Goose did... he was better than Goose.
A now sober Goose (God Bless Him) has softened has stance greatly on that with his brain in tact again.
Mariano is the best closer of all time bar none. A closer should not be the first unanimous HOFer as their value on the game pales in comparison to SP and positional players. Since none of them were first then Mariano should not be.
Pales?
100% disagree.
I’d of traded every Yankee starter and position player other than Jeter before I traded Mariano
That's a strawman and not the argument. The question is should Mariano be the first unanimous player into the HOF. I am saying that no closer should be unanimous over a HOF caliber SP or positional player.
on the first ballot... but what if everyone had that reaction.. that he deserves it more than any other "closer".. maybe more than any relief pitcher.. but when looking at the history of 1st Ballots.. he does not deserve a unanimous 1st ballot.. if many voters had that same thought he might not get in... but that's not gonna happen.
Only 34 players have garnered more than 90% of the first ballot votes.
Mariano will join them. But no one should get 100% because there is already a "club" inside the HoF for those who got in on the 1st ballot. We don't need a new club to be formed.. those who got 100% vote on the first ballot.
Rivera already has the Reliever of the Year Award named after him. He'll be fine getting in with 99%.
I disagree.
The roll of the dominant closer is equal to and every bit as important and valuable as any SP or position player.
IMO
If I had a vote the last thought I’d have was to preserve unanimous status.
I vote for greatness and that’s it
That's fine. Mariano Rivera while important is not nearly as important as Willie Mays or Tom Seaver though.
Two questions:
1. What player that isn't in the HOF do you believe most deserves to be in?
2. What player that is in the HOF do you believe is least deserving to be in (i.e., who shouldn't be in the HOF)? Fill free to skip this one if it's too controversial!
