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OT: Mariano Rivera

T

T2Kplus10

Heisman
Feb 24, 2010
28,180
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SkilletHead2 said:
Hi Camden,
Yeah, I was replying to the increasingly tiresome T. I then remembered that I said I wasn't going to engage him anymore, but I forgot.

My argument is simple. Rivera was the best closer ever and an exceptionally good baseball player who deserves first ballot HOF. He was exceptionally good in the postseason. But during the regular season, his record is incredibly close to Trevor Hoffman playing in the same era. And, he only led the league in saves three times. So I kind of have him as great, but not one of the greatest. Maybe about the 15-20th best player of his era.

So if some of the alltime greats weren't even first ballot HOFers, and since nobody has ever been a unanimous choice, I don't see the argument for starting with Rivera. I would not however, say that to his face if I were standing in the batter's box!

T mostly wants to make age jokes, repeat my shots at him, and lie what about what has occurred on the thread. In real life, he isn't a bad guy, but he's terrible at board banter.
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You can't resist replying, no matter how much you object. Funny thing is, I never even read the majority of your posts. HA!

Age jokes = great comedy
Right? :)
 
T

T2Kplus10

Heisman
Feb 24, 2010
28,180
17,566
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RU848789 said:
Spot on. Close the thread. And T is as clueless about baseball as he is about everything else, lol...
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And you are as clueless about baseball as you are with weather threads. Mo is well deserving as the first unanimous HOF selection. Just like the data proves.
 
T

T2Kplus10

Heisman
Feb 24, 2010
28,180
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RU848789 said:
Data are plural and you're a moron. But it's nice that you follow my posts so closely.
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Data isn't alway plural my angry liberal friend. It depends on whether you are discussing a particular set or type of data or multiple sets or types. D'uh. If you disagree, go whine to Dr. C who taught his students this.
 
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R

RU848789

Heisman
Jul 27, 2001
65,360
44,405
113
T2Kplus10 said:
Data isn't alway plural my angry liberal friend. It depends on whether you are discussing a particular set or type of data or multiple sets or types. D'uh. If you disagree, go whine to Dr. C who taught his students this.
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Dr. C was friggin' Greek - great guy (who just passed away, sadly), but you really think he understood the English language that well? In every science journal you'll ever read, the word "data" is considered plural. Yes, some sources allow the "collective" sense of "data" to be considered singular, but not all (and I can't stand that some allow it), but that's not true for scientific writing and given your chem eng'g degree, I thought you'd know better.
 
G

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
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colbert17 said:
A little perspective here.
These guys received 94.68% (Mays) and 88.22% (Mantle).

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Just thought of something. There were fewer teams back then.. likely fewer voters.. and probably a very provincial group of sportswriters... bigoted against race, ethnicity and heroes of other cities, states and regions.

Today, with ready access to video highlights of all the games and stats daily and fantasy sports.. I'd guess many sportswriters have more of a nationwide perspective as it elevates their self-image to being a national sportswriter rather than some local fanboy writer.

I think we might see Rivera get that 100%... unless Rivera once hurt the ego of some writer who is a voter.
 
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C

Colbert17!

Heisman
Aug 30, 2014
17,422
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113
GoodOl'Rutgers said:
Just thought of something. There were fewer teams back then.. likely fewer voters.. and probably a very provincial group of sportswriters... bigoted against race, ethnicity and heroes of other cities, states and regions.

Today, with ready access to video highlights of all the games and stats daily and fantasy sports.. I'd guess many sportswriters have more of a nationwide perspective as it elevates their self-image to being a national sportswriter rather than some local fanboy writer.

I think we might see Rivera get that 100%... unless Rivera once hurt the ego of some writer who is a voter.
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Some good points
 
T

T2Kplus10

Heisman
Feb 24, 2010
28,180
17,566
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RU848789 said:
Yes, some sources allow the "collective" sense of "data" to be considered singular, but not all (and I can't stand that some allow it).
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Thank you for admitting you were wrong, very appreciated! God Bless Dr. C, didn't know he passed away. Great professor, my classmates and I remember him fondly.
 
W

willisneverrana43

All-American
Jul 26, 2001
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miker183 said:
Joe Torre suggested he be the first unanimous player inducted; I would agree.

Regardless of what team you root for, no closer has been that dominant for that kind of time frame. Smith, Eckersley were both great, but for about 2-4 years. Rivera was a different breed.

Thoughts?
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Many better pitchers who pitched many, many, many more innings. But he should go in.
 
Y

yesrutgers01

Heisman
Nov 9, 2008
122,578
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willisneverrana43 said:
Many better pitchers who pitched many, many, many more innings. But he should go in.
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Hard to say better but it is true that 1115 innings is a small number of innings compared to many HOF pitchers. So, it got me looking and I could only find two pitchers who had a 1000-1200 inning stretch in their career that was better than Mo's. And keep in mind that with closers, every inning is a stressful inning. Those two pitchers were Kofax and Martinez.
Rarefied Air my friend.
 
T

T2Kplus10

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Feb 24, 2010
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yesrutgers01 said:
Hard to say better but it is true that 1115 innings is a small number of innings compared to many HOF pitchers. So, it got me looking and I could only find two pitchers who had a 1000-1200 inning stretch in their career that was better than Mo's. And keep in mind that with closers, every inning is a stressful inning. Those two pitchers were Kofax and Martinez.
Rarefied Air my friend.
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Also:
All-Time Post Season Earned Run Average (Career)
Rank. Player
1. Mariano Rivera .70 141.0 IP
2. Harry Brecheen .83 32.2 IP
3. Jeremy Affeldt .86 31.1 IP
4. Babe Ruth .87 31.0 IP
5. Sherry Smith .89 30.1 IP
6. Sandy Koufax .95 57.0 IP
7. Christy Mathewson .97 101.2 IP
8. Monte Pearson 1.01 35.2 IP
9. Andrew Miller 1.09 33.0 IP
10. Blue Moon Odom 1.13 39.2 IP
 
W

willisneverrana43

All-American
Jul 26, 2001
11,015
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yesrutgers01 said:
Hard to say better but it is true that 1115 innings is a small number of innings compared to many HOF pitchers. So, it got me looking and I could only find two pitchers who had a 1000-1200 inning stretch in their career that was better than Mo's. And keep in mind that with closers, every inning is a stressful inning. Those two pitchers were Kofax and Martinez.
Rarefied Air my friend.
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Kind of. But they then went on to pitch way more innings.
 
e5fdny

e5fdny

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Nov 11, 2002
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T2Kplus10 said:
Also:
All-Time Post Season Earned Run Average (Career)
Rank. Player
1. Mariano Rivera .70 141.0 IP
2. Harry Brecheen .83 32.2 IP
3. Jeremy Affeldt .86 31.1 IP
4. Babe Ruth .87 31.0 IP
5. Sherry Smith .89 30.1 IP
6. Sandy Koufax .95 57.0 IP
7. Christy Mathewson .97 101.2 IP
8. Monte Pearson 1.01 35.2 IP
9. Andrew Miller 1.09 33.0 IP
10. Blue Moon Odom 1.13 39.2 IP
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The opportunity to get to the post season that often was provided to him by the success of others on the field, at bat and on the bench. I mean how often did he come in when the Yankees were losing?

And no one is arguing he isn’t the best relief pitcher. Just as no one is arguing he is the best pitcher.

Also @yesrutgers01, those rarified air guys did have to face the guys they were pitching to.
 
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T

T2Kplus10

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Feb 24, 2010
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e5fdny said:
The opportunity to get to the post season that often was provided to him by the success of others on the field, at bat and on the bench. I mean how often did he come in when the Yankees were losing?

And no one is arguing he isn’t the best relief pitcher. Just as no one is arguing he is the best pitcher.

Also @yesrutgers01, those rarified air guys did have to face the guys they were pitching to.
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Mo is the greatest post season pitcher of all-time.
 
G

GoodOl'Rutgers

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yesrutgers01 said:
...keep in mind that with closers, every inning is a stressful inning.
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what about 9th inning with a 3 run lead and you get the whole inning to pitch.. you do not inherit any runners on base? Is that more stressful than a starter faces with a tied game 0-0 for the first batter?

BTW.. Rivera was 82-60 in win/loss record. 19-10 before he was moved to closer specialization. Not sure what that means.. just found it interesting.
 
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yesrutgers01

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Nov 9, 2008
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Again...the whole argument is stupid. Forget unanimous, there just should be no one that even has a clue about baseball who wouldn’t vote him in on the first ballot. And just like those before him, Seaver, Gibson, Mays, Aaron- some dickhead just won’t do it. ******* stupid.
 
e5fdny

e5fdny

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Nov 11, 2002
114,794
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yesrutgers01 said:
Again...the whole argument is stupid. Forget unanimous, there just should be no one that even has a clue about baseball who wouldn’t vote him in on the first ballot. And just like those before him, Seaver, Gibson, Mays, Aaron- some dickhead just won’t do it. ****ing stupid.
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Nobody in the whole thread is arguing he shouldn’t be a 1st Ballot guy with probably the highest % ever. Nobody.
 
T

T2Kplus10

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Feb 24, 2010
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e5fdny said:
Because...he got to the post season more than anybody else based on on the performance of those who got him there.

And you’re right.
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And the greatest starter with 25 wins still needs others to win another 65 to even get a shot at the playoffs.
 
Y

yesrutgers01

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Nov 9, 2008
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e5fdny said:
Nobody in the whole thread is arguing he shouldn’t be a 1st Ballot guy with probably the highest % ever. Nobody.
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Exactly my point- same could be said for 20 others. Mo never should be in a discussion of the first ever unanimous. There should have been so many before him. And even though we have a handful of guys debating it, at the end of the day, they would vote him in.
Would love to know who didn’t vote for Aaron or Mays
 
J

jordkap

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Jul 11, 2016
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He will definitely not be the 1st unanimous hall of Famer. Jeter has a better shot, but doubt it also.
 
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Rhuarc

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Jul 25, 2001
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Tango Two said:
Therefore not unanimous

Biggest game in his career he choked
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There is no perfect career in baseball. Nobody has ever had one.

The question comes down to: Do you think Mariano Rivera belongs in the HoF? If he does, there is no reason not to vote him in the first year. His stats/career doesn't improve over time.

I find it hard to believe that any intelligent and true baseball fan believes he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.
 
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Barnaby&Neill

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Dec 10, 2010
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Babe Ruth only had 2 hits in the ‘22 World Series loss; he probably shouldn’t have been a first ballot guy.
 
Tango Two

Tango Two

Heisman
Aug 21, 2001
58,903
37,734
78
Rhuarc said:
There is no perfect career in baseball. Nobody has ever had one.

The question comes down to: Do you think Mariano Rivera belongs in the HoF? If he does, there is no reason not to vote him in the first year. His stats/career doesn't improve over time.

I find it hard to believe that any intelligent and true baseball fan believes he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.
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I’m not saying he doesn’t belong, just saying not unanimous or even close to it.
 
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