Should he be unanimous.. yes but he won't. Some guy won't vote for him because he's a reliever and not a starter or true pitcher. Just like guys won't vote for players who DH some people won't vote for him.
OT: Mariano Rivera
- Thread starter miker183
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Should he be unanimous.. yes but he won't. Some guy won't vote for him because he's a reliever and not a starter or true pitcher. Just like guys won't vote for players who DH some people won't vote for him.
Somebody made the argument that if a guy clearly qualifies, why would anybody vote against him other than to avoid it being unanimous? And I think that is a good argument. In recent years, Ken Griffey, Jr. is the most obvious choice for unanimous. In the next four or five years, I don't see any superstar guys coming up (but I might be missing somebody). Rivera is the clearest choice since Griffey and for the next four or five years.
My guess is that if he gets a big push in the media, he might make it. But if he doesn't, he won't be as close as Griffey. I'd vote for him since I agree with the "if you deserve it, you deserve it" argument. But to me, he simply isn't one of the all time great players in baseball, and to be the first unanimous HOF.... Tough call.
When I first read this, I thought, "Why would Billy Williams even be in this discussion? I mean, he was good and all, but...."
Definitely time for a nap.
DiMaggio did not make the Hall until his third year of eligibility.
Shows how flawed the voting can be.
The first line is correct...if a guy is a no brainer HOF, it makes no sense that anyone that follows baseball should vote against them. There should be a lot of unanimous HOF's already. The thing with Griffey vs MR...Post Seatle, Griffey had a lot of down years and hung on for a long time in Cincy. Mariano - retired at the very top of his game. And I just looked at Hoffman's career- yes, they had close to the same amount of saves but TH has more than a half a run more in ERA...WTF says they are remotely the same...they aren't
A closer is all about the big moments and having the confidence and swagger to get those final outs and win the game. That's why, especially for closers, that taking into account the post season (the biggest moments in the sport) is critical for seeing the true worth of a player. MR is the greatest post season pitcher of all-time. That's why he is the best by a wide margin and deserves to be voted in unanimously.
Should have added that the Bosox's Dominic DiMaggio (the "little perfessor") was also a great fielder. That was fortunate for the Sox, because Ted Williams was playing next to him, and Williams couldn't field to save his life.
Lol, Mariano has literally DOUBLE of Hoffman's WAR. It's not close no matter how many times we tell you that saves in a vacuum are a poor metric.
Not more HALF A RUN!? Goodness gracious! Fact is that their save percentage is almost identical. What do you have a closer for? Oh yeah, getting saves. How close were they in saves and save/opportunities? Very close. Especially the save percentage.
How far apart are they on save percentage? 2 saves apart. 2 more saves by Hoffman, and they are identical. Over 20 years.
Oh yeah, they aren't remotely the same!
Well, then, how about saves divided by save opportunities? What could be a fairer metric than that? That puts this completely in context. Sure, Rivera had more save opportunities; he played for a better team. But I think we can admit that both pitchers had long careers, and that they were one of the best closers in their league year in year out for almost exactly the same amount of time. (Interesting that Rivera only led the league in saves three times.)
On save percentage, they are 2 saves from being identical over the course of 18/19 year careers.
Wanna talk WAR? Then lets do so. Rivera's WAR is 77th among pitchers and 227th all time. Why on earth would that qualify you for being the first unanimous HOF selectee? It kind of makes him marginal for even being selected at all! Why? Because WAR is a stupid index for closers. They don't play enough innings to get a decent WAR.
Why not stick with looking at what closers are supposed to do? Close. If you do so, Rivera and Hoffman are incredibly similar, with the notable exception of post season. For the umpteenth time, Rivera is the best ever closer, no question. But Hoffman was a close second.
Are you senile or just not educated on baseball? Not sure. It's okay to admit you are wrong.
Name something that isn't true or pertinent in my quote.
T's argument today: Well, he's a Yankee.
T's argument last year: Aaron Judge is the next Babe Ruth.
T's argument 8 years ago: There is no global warming.
T's argument 12 years ago: Chris Christie is going to be President because he's so great.
The hits just keep on coming.
The voting is meant to stir up interest.No other sport could have fans debating the merits of inductees or potential inductees as has baseball.This interest would not exist were there to be statistical standards for automatic inclusion.
For me,Bobby Grich not being enshrined makes the place a joke.Maybe they'll wait until he's dead as they did with Ron Santo,rated by Retrosheet as the game's top player in the late 60's.
For me,Bobby Grich not being enshrined makes the place a joke.Maybe they'll wait until he's dead as they did with Ron Santo,rated by Retrosheet as the game's top player in the late 60's.
If your going there, how the hell is Jeff Kent not in the HOF... the man has almost 1600 Rib steaks and 377 homeruns
Always liked Kent and hated it when he left the Mets. I heard that he wasn't much of a positive clubhouse guy. You ever hear anything like that?
Zap,Kent does belong.Retrosheet rates his career batting and fielding wins at 37.7,a mark that surpasses dozens of HOF'ers.It's just that Grich's ranking is 50.6,far and away the highest ranking non-HOF'er.
That's another topic.For example,catchers don't have high ratings as compared to outfielders,so they must be compared vs other catchers.
Are you drinking?
1 - Proof that I said this
2 - Yet to be determined
3 - Bad day to talk about global warming
4 - I don't think I knew who Christie was 12 years old
Got anything else old man?
Mo is the clear GOAT. That said, it won’t be unanimous because there are some voters that fundamentally have a problem voting in closers.
WAR may not prove that Mariano is on par with many starting pitchers, but it definitely shows how much better he was than Hoffman. Not all saves are equal and Mariano's WAR CLEARLY shows that. It wasn't close. Only an idiot, or a loser Mets/Red Sox fan would think otherwise. Hoffman is more known for being 2nd to Mariano in his era, than for being Trevor Hoffman.
I haven't even TOUCHED the postseason, where again, it's a blood bath in Mo's favor. That's where legends are truly made.
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For the record,Rivera is credited with 62 pitching wins,the highest by far for any reliever.
Does it matter that 42 had many more opportunities to even be in the post season?
Like I said earlier...who creates the save opportunity to begin with?
I'm not talking about just save accumulation. I'm talking ERA, wins, holds, WHIP and WAR. For averages the sample size actually helps Mariano's case.
This is great!! Say what you want about the sport but in no other do you get these heated HOF arguments.
Oh by the way we play Michigan State this week.
Oh by the way we play Michigan State this week.
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Belle should have been a 1st ballot HOF'er with 98%+ of the vote.
Same way. Support from the other guys on the field and the batters box. You don’t do it by yourself. Even though some would say this year’s NL Cy Young winner almost did.
For the Closer, all the work/heavy lifting has been done. He is “closing” the door that has been unlocked and opened by others.