Please stop. I don’t want you to lose whatever credibility you’re still clinging to. Let’s call it a night shall we. This thread needs you to at least appear halfway sane.
The New Lounge
- Thread starter hpnole
- Start date
I'm not worried and I'm not embarrassed.
Really not feeling like sharing or listening to anything personal or vulnerable with you any time soon.
You suggested I had a long running history of denigrating teachers. 9 times out of 10 you said. I apologized for the only post that I can recall making that might be construed that way. Just a few days ago I believe. Several of my relatives were teachers, one in a day school, two in public. I’m not sure where this is coming from I spent years and years in school, other than doctors maybe I didn’t hold anyone in higher esteem than teachers.
But of course if a certain teacher starts saying bat **** crazy stuff I would make a mental note but not hold the profession at large responsible.
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I advised you to “ keep it civil” and you interpret that as a hint at doxxing? Not a request for civility’s sake? You think I’m going to hire a goon to take out your kneecaps with a baseball bat?
“ Coming at you” over your job? You’ve frequently used your job over the years to assert moral privilege, to insult those who run small businesses, to convey the notion that you’re some sort of societal insider while the rest of us are hopeless Mayberry rubes because we’ve chosen different career paths. So if you don’t actually hold the job you’ve been pretending to in order to better preen from a more virtuous perch, I feel it’s relevant.
I hope you don't have too much invested in my opinion here. I know you don't on any other topic.
"Moral privilege"? Never heard of it, but it's encouraging that you recognize any type of privilege.
Yeah, after questioning how I use my time at work and opining that NC residents may have concerns about their tax dollars, to tell me "I would advise from here on out, you try to keep this civil," sounds pretty menacing.
I've worked in public education my entire professional life. I'm a certified teacher. What my exact position is in public schools is not something I care to divulge, have ever divulged contemporaneously here, and will not, for reasons I've stated. Maybe I'm a year-round elementary school teacher who was, in fact, goofing off on the job like you said. Maybe I'm a principal who delegates from a desk and has a DevilsIllustrated tab open. Maybe classes don't start until next week. Maybe I'm recovering from surgery and laid up in bed for the next 2 weeks. Maybe I have a downtown support position with a flexible schedule. You don't know and you won't know.
Any time you want to talk about an actual issue, feel free to refocus.
I’m surprised you’re not familiar with the concept of moral privilege for several reasons, not the least of which I defined it a month or two ago. When someone seeks to accrue benefits belonging to a certain group without actually being a full member of said group, one who garners the positive aspects of membership with none of the baggage. A Black person who white passes lecturing others about racism and white privilege might be an example.
Yes, no Muslims. I feel like I've been vewy, vewy clear with you Datt, so not sure why you keep asking me. You think you got one of your "Citizen Arrests" (Gotcha) moments. I know nothing about the other Muslims in office, but Ellison and Omar are useless. Yes, I know that is very common for most of DC. But when you take a Muslim and add in Socialists? Well, It's a No times two.
Maybe there's one out there, but I'm not seeing too good a track record for me to get behind a Muslim as a politician. Sorry, but not sorry.
Ah. I don't remember your previously mentioning it. Your explanation redirects where I might have gone with sussing out its meaning. Thank you. Is it sort of like virtue signaling?
This seems related... while I'm obviously pretty tenacious in my support of transpeople, once their existence is 'safe,' I am open to exploring certain gray areas. There are legit concerns about women who went through male puberty playing women's sports. It's also fair for cis women to have reservations about recently transitioned women who had male privilege all their lives, like Caitlyn Jenner, who may then want to insert themselves into women's safe spaces too quickly, without having 'earned it,' however that may be defined.
Well, a couple times ago you tried to claim it was "convenient" for me to leave out the socialism [sic] part, so I wanted to distinguish between them.
Your stance is anti-American, anti-Christian, and bigoted. That's not my opinion. That assessment is in line with the dictionary, the Constitution, and the Bible, among other things.
Recent converts to Judaism or Islam who quickly take to lecturing others about anti semitism or Islamaphobia would seem to fit the bill as well.
I'm not against Muslims. It's just the way I feel when it comes to politics. It is proven right with the few we have in office. I know an argument can also be made that the bar in DC is very low, but just think we have to draw a line somewhere. David Duke may have had a 'right' to run for office years ago, but I don't think he should have been able to. Does that make me a bigot too?
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You can say you're not "against" them all you want. You are against them holding political office because of their religion. That is being against them. As I mentioned before, it's like saying you have no problem with X. Y, or Z group of people... as long as they know "their place."
You have explained yourself thoroughly and have said you are not sorry for it. Saying it again is not going to undo the fact that it is a bigoted, anti-American, anti-Christian stance. If you're unapologetic, accept the consequences.
Ah... there's a great line in Things Fall Apart, by Chinua Achebe, describing a recent convert to the new religion who seemed more fervent about Christianity than the missionary: "...the outsider who wept louder than the bereaved."
I do. And I think my stance of being more than skeptical are correct.
Opinions are neither correct nor incorrect. Yours is factually bigoted, anti-American, and anti-Christian.
Yes, Muslims have the right to run for office. I don't like the idea, but don't run around screaming it. I think we've gotten too soft with what we tolerate, and people like Mamdani, Omar, and Ellison? I feel they have an agenda that is un American. If that makes me bigoted, anti American, and anti Christian, then so be it.
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We've gotten too... soft... with what we... tolerate... like Muslims.
That is indeed bigoted, anti-American, and anti-Christian.
As Christians, do you think we’re supposed to accept Islam?
Christians are supposed to accept Muslims, trans, whatever, without any complaints.
We are in the dunking booth, and everyone not a Christian is allowed to try to dunk us.
At what point have we accepted too much? Yes we are supposed to love everyone, but that doesn't mean we have to accept everything.
Define what you mean by accept.
I mean, you said "accept." I repeated your language. What do you mean by "accept"? It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask but now perhaps you meant something different.
I thought I've been clear. I don't dislike someone just because they're Muslim. I can accept that they're Muslim, but not like their beliefs. I'm not going to shout at them for being one either. Do I believe they should be hold powerful positions like Politicians? No. I think their beliefs eventually show through, and won't match the overall good of our country.
I still say so much that's going on today is because our tolerance has grown, which muddies up the waters on right vs wrong.
Now, without spinning it, please define what YOU mean by accept.
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You realize the contradiction in telling me to define a word based on what * I * mean while also telling me not to spin it, right? I don't trust that I can say anything without your receiving it in bad faith.
I really don't think I meant anything other than what the word is known to mean... If I have to elaborate, I would start by saying I don't necessarily mean embrace and welcome on a personal level, but it does mean to honor their rights and be willing to speak up on behalf of their rights. Just like the Constitution and the Bible say. It strikes me as a very shallow, worthless form of acceptance if all you mean is being nice to their faces while you advocate against their rights.
The NCGA has put 4 fear-mongering ragebait amendments on the ballot for this November. If they were to put a 5th on the ballot where we could vote on whether Muslims are allowed to hold elected office in NC (yes) or not (no), how would you vote? Everything you've said here leads me to believe you would welcome that opportunity and be more than willing to deny them the right to run for office if you could. Everything you've said here leads me to believe you would go beyond just refusing to vote for Muslims yourself, but that you would also keep them off the ballot through laws/amendments banning them.
And where does it end for you? We've been focused on Muslims in elected positions, but you just added "powerful positions like" politics to it. What else? If it was up to you, would they be allowed to work for the USPS? a county clerk's office? for the DOT? for the town parks & rec dept? Would you approve of them getting a government job of any kind? Or approve on the condition that they can't get promoted above a certain level?
How about as host/hostess or server at your favorite restaurant? I'm sure you'd welcome their money at your tire shop, but would you ever frequent a shop a Muslim owned? Would you hire a Muslim?
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Datt, I swear you spin more than a washing machine. YES, I have a problem with Muslims being Politicians. Thats called a position of power. Did I say they shouldn’t be allowed to work? Your diversion tactics are second to none. My opinion isn’t popular, but with the Muslims that do hold positions of power? They shouldn’t be there. They are dangerous people.
A hostess at a restaurant, really? You hit the turbo spin cycle here. As far as hiring a Muslim, I doubt it. I own my business, and want to be comfortable with who I have working for me. Just keeping it real with you.
Would you work for someone that’s a staunch conservative?
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We can love our neighbors and not love their actions. I think that’s what Mac probably believes. Not accepting everything doesn’t mean you’re not behaving like a Christian.
WHAT are you accusing me of spinning? Going into detail to explain or understand nuance is NOT spin.
Instead of assuming and jumping to conclusions, I'm asking clarifying questions and you're critical of that. Would you rather I leap to conclusions? It probably comes down to which you'd rather criticize me for, because that seems to be a foregone conclusion no matter what I say.
I didn't ask if Muslims should be allowed to work at all. That's your spin. I asked about several specific jobs to understand where the line is for you. And I explained why I was asking: you literally said, "positions of power like politicians." Those are your exact words. No spin at all. I want to know what qualifies as "like" politicians.
Does "like politicians" include government appointments, as well as elected positions? Does it include high-level supervisory roles in govt? Even the sequence of jobs I asked about was in a precise, thoughtful order, going from a federal job w/ USPS to local in a county clerk's office to the DOT (state -- I probably should have put this BEFORE county), to town parks & rec.
And then I moved to questions about private industry that would have a more personal connection for you: would you be cool with your favorite restaurant having a Muslim hostess or Muslim server greeting you, seeing you to your table, taking your order? Or would you request a different table? Or stop going there? Would you patronize a shop owned by Muslims just like you would accept their patronage at yours when it was making you money?
Not sure about the exact details of federal law as it relates to employment and blatant textbook bigotry, but you might be on the hook for a lawsuit or even federal prosecution if you refused to hire a qualified person because of their religion. That's a protected category w/ govt; not sure how it applies to private industry.
What if an existing employee converted to Islam and asked for an additional break per shift to pray? Would you accommodate it? Or fire them? Or would you start bringing in pork products every day and taunting the Muslim with them until he quit?
We've hyperfocused on Muslims to this point. You've also slipped in similarly alarming things about women and LGBTQIAMQW+. Would you hire a qualified woman anywhere but secretarial/receptionist roles? Would you hire a qualified gay person? Keep on an existing employee who came out as gay?
If the work itself was something I was comfortable with ethically, I would accept a job working for a staunch conservative. I would not last long if that translated to a climate that was not conducive to my values. Say the word 'banana' in your reply if you've made it this far. I doubt you will. There was a little country store near this place I used to vacation. The owner lived right next door and had signs for every conservative candidate at the time in his yard. He often talked loudly about FoxNews & "libtards" and I stopped shopping there. The signs in his yard would have given me pause but ultimately would not have stopped me from applying for a job there, if necessary. His conversation topics and tone would have led me to quit or get fired for arguing.
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If you're voting against their rights, what difference does claiming to love them make? We know people through their actions more so than their words.
Any employer should be able to hire as they please. The person does have to fit my place. I'm the boss. I'm the one with everything invested, know my community, and what I feel that needs to be done to be successful. I have a lot of qualified people that have put in applications, but after talking to them, I didn't hire them. That's the way of the world. It is not discrimination. I've turned away white people, black people... and have hired a black man and a young lady. I felt they both would fit. The lady did not after a short while. I tried talking to her, but I'm not going to keep talking. The black man worked for me for about 1 year. We parted on good terms. I use an online site for potential hires now, and have had one young black guy that came in to interview for a job opening a while back. Until I meet them, I don't know their race. His auto knowledge was limited, but I also didn't feel the connection was there. Again, it's my business. I hire who I think will fit. I haven't always been right, but they must fit my core beliefs, not me fit theirs.
My favorite restaurant having a Muslim hostess, or server? Wouldn't bother me a bit. Yes, I patron other businesses that Muslims own. Not trying to be funny here, but in today's world, you can't help but to. They own many restaurants and gas stations.
I've been more than clear. I don't think they should be in POLITICAL positions of Power. The key word? POLITICAL.
Haven’t read the case with a fine tooth comb, but generally hiring and firing based on religion falls under Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act.
This case is considered landmark, but not necessarily reflective of most disc. cases due to the fact that the defendant explicitly mentioned the plaintiff’s hijab repeatedly as a dress code violation. Disc. cases are notoriously difficult to prove if the employer doesnt leave a trail of bread crumbs for lawyers to pick up later. Employers arent even allowed to ask about religion on applications and at interviews. I can’t recall the name of the case, but there was another suit siding in favor of the plaintiff when a Muslim woman was fired after wearing a hijab to work. The employer claimed that she didn’t wear one to the job interview, he had been deceived.
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