ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE LOSS
- Thread starter WI#1Dukie22
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So he's lost 5 straight ACC road games, over 2 seasons mind you. But in the mean time won an ACCT title, preseason tournament, and other multiple big games. Yeah let's move on.
Btw, the Bowden and Paterno examples don't quite fit. Thos guys fell off in every way, including recruiting. K seems to be hipper now than he was in the kids eyes. But it can be his fault I suppose. He's not as demanding, especially defensively, but I see that him adjusting to these millennials.
IDK if any of you coach youngsters, but come to my school and start old school coaching them...you will get nowhere.
Btw, the Bowden and Paterno examples don't quite fit. Thos guys fell off in every way, including recruiting. K seems to be hipper now than he was in the kids eyes. But it can be his fault I suppose. He's not as demanding, especially defensively, but I see that him adjusting to these millennials.
IDK if any of you coach youngsters, but come to my school and start old school coaching them...you will get nowhere.
It’s not coaching “old school” per say....it’s having standards defensively as a collective...Duke hasn’t had that standard for a very very long time...Until K starts holding players accountable....benching starters...and putting in some guys who will play heart,hustle,and some defensive discipline...
This may mean the best players talent wise sit for a bit...it may mean some losses..it could mean a lot of things...but defensively the Duke program has no standard other than lip service...and K doesn’t do them any good with all his excuses....we are to young....we haven’t practiced enough....we haven’t played enough...we are not deep enough....blah blah blah...K is the problem....he full of to many excuses for the poor showings....
The teams identity is obvious. They try to outscore everyone and do not play good defense. They are horrible in the pick-and-roll, and it is absolutely destroying them on the defensive end. There are two months left before the tournaments start, but I am not optimistic in any way that this team gets better on the defensive end. And the problem is, as good as they are offensively, teams like BC and NC State will show up in the NCAA tournament. This is a recipe for disaster. On the offensive end, GA must drive to the hole more, and Duval needs to slow down at times. The most frustrating thing I can imagine for this team is having lack of depth on the bench. There are other prominent teams in college basketball that actually use their bench and use it effectively. If Coach K wants to win with 7 guys, it's going to be a short season. If we want to see them get better on the defensive end, it's going to take a lot out of them from game to game. So you have to have quality depth in order to compete for national championship.
Absolutely spot on JWill. The bigs have to get touches!!! OFC
Gotcha. But we can both agree that those two teams were Tourney teams and had talent. Not the two we have loses to this season. I will say state executed their game plan and played to their strength. It’s time for a wake up call.
I know some don't like people cricizing Grayson, and he wasn't the only problem, but about halfway through the second half I actually kind of forgot that Grayson was playing last night. He was totally invisible. And I totally agree with jwill. I have no idea why they stop going inside to our two beasts. They have proven to be pretty much unstoppable.
ND made the elite 8This was from 2015. The thread is littered with defensive problems, etc. This was after the Notre Dame loss in the ACC semis. We went on to win the Natty. Just sayin..
I think it’s because when this team gets into its “ must score mode” the team and game strategy becomes more one on one ball. Not to mention both Carter and Bagley were getting called for travels and your right. Abu And Yets. Should have fouled out way earlier had we kept throwing the ball in the post.
Time to start Jordan Robinson, Jordan Goldmire, Jordan Davidson, Miguel Buckwire, and Steve Avery! We don't know what they can do unless we see them do it! Duh!
Love Duke and K but I generally refrain from listening to the presser because I know it will piss me off. Defense needs to get better and he needs to trust the bench. Oh yea...Marvin Bagley is as good as advertised and plays hard.. and Grayson is going to have to lead this young team...needs to channel his inner Quinn Cook!
We got Bagley, we know what they will do. Stand around and watch him do his thing. The other four starters do.
I might be in the minority but how is it the States, Virginia’s and all the other blue bloods get their three and four stars to play hard and get minutes to help their starters out. Even Kentucky. Duke will turn it around I’m sure but K’s comments are alarming.
I understand that Carter and Bagley can't take every shot but the offense should run through the post.
Maybe if we gave more game balls to Carter and Grayson and Vrank they'd feel better and play better, but noooooooo. Everyone wants to give it to Bagley every time just b/c he is the best play in every game. Look at how Luke May plays: Maybe Jordan Tucker would have saved us yesterday, but he never got the chance! Duh!
In crunch time, the offense should run through the post EVERY SINGLE POSSESION. Very similar to 2015 actually, except this years team has 2 horses rather than just 1.
I don’t buy this. These guys don’t just discover basketball. They’ve played now for 15-16 years by the time they get to Duke. K isn’t reinventing some weird defense no one has ever seen before. There’s only a few principles to adhere to on defense to make it successful and pretty much any high school coach in America is teaching those principles.
The big sell for defense if you’re playing man to man is pairing the right matchups and teaching proper pick and roll. From there, it’s on the kids to do what they know they need to do. Defense is a mutual investment between the coach and the players. These guys either can’t sustain the energy level needed to play good defense, or they won’t.
So to me, the problem isn’t that freshmen don’t know how to play defense, it’s that their bodies just can’t keep the level needed up, or they just won’t. They sure as hell know how to shoot. And offense becomes much more precise and complicated the higher the level of play than defense does.
Defense is 90% effort, you have to WANT to defend and not be afraid of messing up or getting scored on. Until we put forth effort to defend, every game will be a race to 100. These kids have never had to play defense in their lives.
Defense is about heart and effort. Let's also be real here. It's also about accountability. It's time for K to hold all of them accountable. None of the starters, and I mean none, are playing good d. Virginia plays lock down d, and yes they don't get one and done kids, so he has veterans. But each one of those kids know defense is demanded of them by Bennett. They get after it, and I'm sure they know if they don't bring it, they won't play. This season isn't lost, but it's on K to turn this around. Three games into conference and teams are scoring about 92 a game. Isn't defense what K used to build teams off of? Other than one weekend last season and 6 games in 2015, we haven't been good defensively in quite a while.
I’ve stated before and will again. AAU and other organizations that display high school hoops thrive only on offensive highlights and play. These organizations could give a rats *** about Defense. These OAD players don’t know how to play D when they get to college. You will never have a defensive juggernaut team with Freshmen. That comes with playing in college for more than a season. That is the poison with high level OADs. Pick your medicine. I’ve been around AAU and defense isn’t taught, period and it shows
I haven't read over all the posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but as bad as the defense was, we were out rebounded for only the 2nd time this season...and that was in the other loss to BC. This team depends on winning the rebound battle. Also a ton of turnovers, including 8 by Trevon (and 5 by Bags).
It was just a miserable game overall by Duke, not just on the defensive side of the ball. I'm hopeful our guys will bounce back. Next.
OFC
It was just a miserable game overall by Duke, not just on the defensive side of the ball. I'm hopeful our guys will bounce back. Next.
OFC
Along with a lot of guys on here I think it has to do with the AAU, one-on-one, no defense just try to score type of basketball that they grow up playing in the summers. Fundamentals, especially defensively, are ignored in AAU basketball. Now that's not to say they don't work on defense, but their coaches don't seem to prioritize it.
Here we are with 4 high school superstars, only one was considered a good defender (Trent Jr). Now even if they don't know exactly where to be or what to do defensively, they can still show the EFFORT. Like Swervin just said, you have to WANT to get stops. Just watch Virginia's effort on defense, then watch our's. It's not even close. I'm pretty sure Coach K knows how to teach defense, he has a decent track record.... So I think it's funny when people on here think they know better than K. You don't. ICYMI he just won a natty not even 3 years ago. These guys just need to wake up and realize that defense is now their #1 priority. From what the players have been saying, it seems like communication isn't there. And not to forget these guys are still trying to gel as a team. There was no continuity carried over from last year because the team is completely different. So in the end I think we just need to hope they start to build some chemistry, and show more effort. And also hope the freshmen care enough to really try and get better as a team defensively, before jetting to the NBA. Because if they do, watch out world.
Here we are with 4 high school superstars, only one was considered a good defender (Trent Jr). Now even if they don't know exactly where to be or what to do defensively, they can still show the EFFORT. Like Swervin just said, you have to WANT to get stops. Just watch Virginia's effort on defense, then watch our's. It's not even close. I'm pretty sure Coach K knows how to teach defense, he has a decent track record.... So I think it's funny when people on here think they know better than K. You don't. ICYMI he just won a natty not even 3 years ago. These guys just need to wake up and realize that defense is now their #1 priority. From what the players have been saying, it seems like communication isn't there. And not to forget these guys are still trying to gel as a team. There was no continuity carried over from last year because the team is completely different. So in the end I think we just need to hope they start to build some chemistry, and show more effort. And also hope the freshmen care enough to really try and get better as a team defensively, before jetting to the NBA. Because if they do, watch out world.
It is not just a Duke problem it is a systematic youth basketball problem. Defense is not being taught at any level, especially AAU. The kids are brought up watching highlight films and spend all their time sharpening their skills on scoring the ball. It is most notable at Duke because we are playing more and more freshman. We can sit around and blame our coach but I’m unsure what many want him to do. Why do we assume AOC can defend any better, or Goldwire? Logically speaking all we would be doing is losing offense without any guarantee our defense would improve.
We love the big sexy names that we are landing on a yearly basis, but each year it becomes more clear that a balance of 1-and-done with a core of upperclassmen would likely be best.
All hope is not lost but we must give this team time and we must hope they buy in. Defense is not just about fundamentals it is also about attitude and we need to see a shift in our mindset. These guys are going pro, regardless of whether we win the rest of our games or lose them. But if they want to leave their mark at Duke they must keep grinding. Defense is likely not going to improve their draft stock, but it will improve their college legacy. I hope that matters to this group, time will tell.
We love the big sexy names that we are landing on a yearly basis, but each year it becomes more clear that a balance of 1-and-done with a core of upperclassmen would likely be best.
All hope is not lost but we must give this team time and we must hope they buy in. Defense is not just about fundamentals it is also about attitude and we need to see a shift in our mindset. These guys are going pro, regardless of whether we win the rest of our games or lose them. But if they want to leave their mark at Duke they must keep grinding. Defense is likely not going to improve their draft stock, but it will improve their college legacy. I hope that matters to this group, time will tell.
The problem is bench isn’t littered with talent.
- Alex O physically is a year or two away from being a real contributor at a high D 1 level.
- Javin is more of a raw athlete learning how to play basketball. Travels a lot on offense, not a great offensive rebounder and can’t dribble or shot. He also fouls every 15 to 30 seconds on defense. He fouled out playing 15 minutes yesterday. He can’t guard along the perimeter on defense or guard quicker or faster players.
- Bolden plays well and can score but more of a old school Big that is a back to basket bjg with some post moves. He can alter shots on defense but not a great rebounder.
- Vrank is slow footed and is terrible on defense. He was a low three star recruit almost like a walk-on.
- Jack White was a low three star recruit that isn’t great defensively. Can hit an outside shot but not a high ACC or high D1 caliber player.
- Goldwire was a low three star player that was going to play for Eastern Kentucky. In a few years maybe a decent backup point guard with more of a focus on the defensive end. Right now he is too skinny to be a great contributor.
This is good stuff. And honestly, it makes sense, it's tough to get high quality backups when we are supposed to have the greatest starting five ever.
However - HE...coach K put those players on the bench....recruited them, offered them scholarships...its not like they are walk ons....so who's responsibility is it that the bench is low on talent? ( i disagree btw..they have talent or they wouldnt be at Duke)
Exactly. K has talent. He's just so hung up with the elite talent. I love how he can talk out of both sides of his mouth and get away with it too. That's better than good fellas. I realize he's the best, but this kind of talk is better than a politician. One minute he says we haven't practiced enough, then it's we're not deep, and now it's we haven't played enough. If Ol Roy said these things, we would make so much fun of him. Then he talks about O'Connell looking bad, yet Allen (who I love) was awful, as was Trent. They played a combined 77 minutes, yet you summed up O'Connell in 2 minutes? How many turnovers did Duval have? What's the worse thing that could happen if Goldwire played, he has a bad turnover, or not stop someone? Wait, that's no different than what Duval does half the time. Worse than that is we have people who buy about everything that comes out of K's mouth.
For Duke to turn it around, and I think we can, everyone on the team must be held accountable, and it starts with K.
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So what I'm hearing is Coach K has really screwed this team because he hasn't recruited well enough to have a bench to develop. Is this accurate? Or is it more that he decided to recruit players that can't play the defense needed to be at a National Championship level? The 2015 team was in a similar situation, but turned it around in the NCAA tourney. This teams has two months to figure it out, but as of now, nothing tells me that it will happen. I really would like to see 1 or 2 bench players really contribute on the defensive end. I hear many of you saying these kids have never had to play defense. Well the problem with that is, if you're looking another player in the face, staring him down, your competitive nature has to take over. Where are the days where you want to stop the player from scoring? You take it personal. Basketball is a lot more than scoring baskets. I just get frustrated watching teams score at will because we can't guard a pick-and-roll.
The loss sucked and I hate it as much as everyone else. I get sick of seeing wide open layup's with no one else even in the paint. I am not ready to give up yet though. I am still holding out hope that we get it figured out defensively. It has to start happening pretty quickly though or it will be very difficult to stay optimistic. This team has so much talent and potential, it's a shame for them to not live up to it on both ends of the floor. What puzzles me though it that they HAVE to realize how bad the defense is but it doesn't look like they are trying very hard to fix it.
I believe Coach K and staff are trying their best to teach how important defense is and are trying to teach it. A player has to have the desire to learn how to play defense and I might add learn to be a good free throw shooter. We have a lot of great and fantastic dunkers. I wonder how much time these guys has spent through the years on dunks, cross over dribbles, step back jump shots and shooting the 3. That's what you see in high light videos. Never defense. Defense is not cool. Now going back to what Mac said about Bennett and UVA playing D he has them on his page. Don't know how he has done it. Perhaps the kids he's recruiting have worked on it in high school. I don't know if the Duke team will win this years natty. I still think we have a good shot at it but we really need to do a lot better at defense. NCSU was scoring from every where on the court not just 3's. I don't care if we score 120 points a game if we give up 121 we lose and have I expressed my disdain for those black unis. If we lose let's lose in Duke Blue and White, our team colors. OFC
The one kid who has actually earned his time is Alex and he is used as a scapegoat and benched for 1/10 of the indiscretions that the enabled starters (minus MB) display game after game.
K needs to start O’Connell and sit Grayson, Carter and Duvall to send a message. Duvall is way to careless and only wants to drive or throw lobs, Grayson checked out and his defense is embarrassing. Carter looks like he is now coasting and his pick and roll d is a joke.
Stop enabling these guys and maybe they make it past first weekend
K needs to start O’Connell and sit Grayson, Carter and Duvall to send a message. Duvall is way to careless and only wants to drive or throw lobs, Grayson checked out and his defense is embarrassing. Carter looks like he is now coasting and his pick and roll d is a joke.
Stop enabling these guys and maybe they make it past first weekend
You're right Pisgah. But at the same time K is bigger than a bunch of armchair coaches on a message board. There is sooooo much none of us know about. Not just drama stuff either, just the bare basics of having a team go through a season. Small stuff that shouldn't matter can play a high role in these things. I mean look at all the craziness that happened just yesterday...A&M losing at home vs LSU, Mizzous terrible turnover, UNC getting beat down. It's college basketball...things will happen. It just irks us because it happens less.tk Duke and K than many other teams.
And come in with the blowing Bennett up like he's the greatest. Yeah they play D. But they also struggle to score most games. And the Hoos have never done too hot in the NCAAT. If he were Dukes ciach we'd be asking for him to be fired 2 years ago.
See if Tatum, Irving and even Semi will come down on their day off and teach some Celtic defense.
Every night they play great D. Of course it helps having Smart coming off the bench. He loves to shut down great players.
Tired of seeing Duke try to play like Golden State on offense but Phoenix or Sacramento on defense.
Better comparisons might be the old Loyola Marymount teams coached by Paul Westfield or the UNLV Running Rebs under Tark.
Every night they play great D. Of course it helps having Smart coming off the bench. He loves to shut down great players.
Tired of seeing Duke try to play like Golden State on offense but Phoenix or Sacramento on defense.
Better comparisons might be the old Loyola Marymount teams coached by Paul Westfield or the UNLV Running Rebs under Tark.
Guys back in 2015 we lost BACK to BACK games in the second week of January to NC STATE (finished the season 22-14) and MIAMI (finished the season 25-13 and didn’t even make tourney). We gave up 87 to the Wolfpack and 90 to the Hurricanes. How did that season end up???!!!???
To be blunt, the game has passed by K. I know that is taboo to say especially as a Duke fan but it's the truth. 2015 was just an outlier. That team just had special talent, like you said it had the amazing leadership of Cook, Tyus unbelievably smart and mature, Justise was a flat out beast defensively and Okafor couldn't be stopped. That wasn't a year where K coached really well, he just had a ton of talent that fit perfectly. That year's defense really turned around once Justise got over his rib injury and he was a complete force on that end.
The Rivers team, the Jabari/Hood team and last year's team were just horrific coaching. Ingram's team did what they were basically expected to do once Amile went out for the year. So he had 3 teams filled with a ton of talent and he just dropped the ball with them.
This year's team is his most talented and it looks like he hasn't coached them yet. There is no offensive system, they just score a lot because of how talented they are. How the hell do you not run PnR with Duval and Bagley all game long? Duval was by far the best PnR PG in this class and we rarely run the PnR, I mean very rarely. Defensively he wants to coach this super aggressive half court defense. That worked when you didn't have 4-5 guys out on the floor that could shoot the 3. But now when you do that, the floor is super spaced out. He literally wants a guy like Carter to guard his man 25 feet out and be in his jersey even when he is just chilling out there without the ball. It just leaves so much space and makes it way too hard for guys to rotate. I think the guys are so focused on guarding their man, they're always hesitant to help and rotate which then leads to them getting picked apart.
We wasted a supreme talent like Jabari and now wasting an all time great talent in Bagley. What Bagley is doing on a game by game basis is pretty ridiculous. Yet it's going to waste.
The Rivers team, the Jabari/Hood team and last year's team were just horrific coaching. Ingram's team did what they were basically expected to do once Amile went out for the year. So he had 3 teams filled with a ton of talent and he just dropped the ball with them.
This year's team is his most talented and it looks like he hasn't coached them yet. There is no offensive system, they just score a lot because of how talented they are. How the hell do you not run PnR with Duval and Bagley all game long? Duval was by far the best PnR PG in this class and we rarely run the PnR, I mean very rarely. Defensively he wants to coach this super aggressive half court defense. That worked when you didn't have 4-5 guys out on the floor that could shoot the 3. But now when you do that, the floor is super spaced out. He literally wants a guy like Carter to guard his man 25 feet out and be in his jersey even when he is just chilling out there without the ball. It just leaves so much space and makes it way too hard for guys to rotate. I think the guys are so focused on guarding their man, they're always hesitant to help and rotate which then leads to them getting picked apart.
We wasted a supreme talent like Jabari and now wasting an all time great talent in Bagley. What Bagley is doing on a game by game basis is pretty ridiculous. Yet it's going to waste.
I could play better defense than what these guys are putting forth of late... I'm 26 with arthritis in both my knees. It's not K. It's the effort. I think it's pretty evident they don't care about defense. We know K does.
On the other hand maybe you should go tell K to retire, and take over as the interim coach. You seem to know how to fix it.
Sorry everyone, I'm just getting really sick of "fans" on here claiming to have all the answers.