He’s every bit as important.
I wouldn’t have traded MR in his prime for Griffey Jr in his prime or Tom Seaver.
Ask opposing hitters
OT: Mariano Rivera
- Thread starter miker183
- Start date
I wouldn’t have traded MR in his prime for Griffey Jr in his prime or Tom Seaver.
Ask opposing hitters
You have someone who pitches only when his team has a lead and then not even all those game. You have others who help generate that lead and play either every game or every fifth game. If you think closers are every bit important as Mays, Seaver, Griffey Jr, Ruth, Gehrigh, Mantle, DiMaggio, Williams etc then I think you're lost. That has nothing to do with Rivera's pure stuff in that 1 or 2 innings he pitched. If you moved any HOF caliber SP to the closer role they'd have done the exact same as Mariano if not better. He couldn't hack it as a SP so they moved him to RP because it's not as valuable.
Do you think 20 years of that "closer" position being a "thing" is long enough to gauge Rivera's greatness? His career spanned a huge chunk of that. You know I totally respect your opinion on this, right? I am not saying he is only a Gary Carter type who need to wait 5 years before he gets in. Frank Thomas was the 1st player who played a majority of his games at DH... got in 1st ballot with about 84% . Rivera clearly was much more dominant, much more deserving... but I don't think anyone should get a 100% 1st ballot..
hmmm.. what does that mean anyway.. 1st Ballot?
bbwaa-rules-for-election
B. An elector will vote for no more than ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.
C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
Does this mean that in order to keep Rivera from getting 100% 1st ballot votes I would have to rank up to 10 candidates and NOT list Rivera? That would be hard to do. But I suppose it could mean I only put one name in.. McGriff maybe.C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
Yeah.. I see your point. With the PED issues with so many candidates.. hard not to list Rivera in Top 3. And he was pitching against a lot of guys using PEDs.
I don't know is Zak57 is right.. but let me ask Zappaa this.. if you had to form a team of all the people in the HOF do you pick Rivera before you pick any other pitcher?
I'd probably go Bob Gibson.. but I'm old.
I'd probably go Bob Gibson.. but I'm old.
with you on the LOL.. closer are different beasts. They have to be ready to throw every other night. Not every starter could do that.. certainly not be dominant at it.. heck, no other closer was as good at it as he was.. so why would any good starter be that good?
LOL to you for not wanting to take an elite SP or positional player over an elite RP. Hard to believe that when you played with Ricky Henderson and you'd take a guy who pitches 1 inning over him.
Not to mention that as I said Rivera is an easy first ballot HOF but seems like most people have trouble following certain arguments.
6 dominant innings are harder than throwing 1 right? If you think they moved say Bob Gibson from SP to a RP he wouldn't do what Mariano did?
What’s the difference, do I take DiMaggio over Williams, Carew over Gwynn.. who cares
MR is every bit as valuable to the success of his team as any position player.
I could easily start my team with him in today’s game of 6 innings pitchers And 150 strikeout hitters.
No, highly doubt it.
MR’s cutter is a once in a life time gift, never to be duplicated.
Any left handed hitter who ever lived would prefer hitting off of Gibson than MR
Take Rivera over Trout to start your team and see how Cashman laughs in your face.
we will never know. maybe he couldn't do 1-2 innings every 2-3 days... maybe he'd fail big time during the "juicing" era.
I am with you in that I wouldn't think any relief pitcher or DH deserves a unanimous ballot since we have seen no full position players or starters get one.
But with the candidates this year.. Zappaa may be correct. And I never liked hearing about those writers who try to make a point with their votes.. "protecting" the HoF. The more I think about it the more I think I side with Zappaa's position.
Also, don’t get mad, hof and sports talk is fun
Scenario: Yanks 3, visitors 2, top 8. Two on, dangerous LH up. Torre calls on...Graeme Lloyd! Mike Stanton! Threat ends. Yanks get two in bottom 8, lead 5-2. Mo comes in now for save.
Moral: You're not the greatest of all-time if they go to someone else
Moral: You're not the greatest of all-time if they go to someone else
Also, don’t get mad, hof and sports talk is fun
Lol I'm not mad I'm getting ready for a wedding so have to drop this.
I saw your post and agree Rivera's cutter is death to lefties. My contention is if Gibson can dominate through six including lefties then he could for one inning at the game especially with his bulldog mentality. I'm not trying to disparage Mariano he is amazing but in the context of the game I don't think closers are as important. I do hate that the writers didn't put any of other guys unanimously.
Rivera was not only the greatest closer of all time but a huge key to why the Yankees became what they were for so long in his time. If he isn't unanimous nobody ever will be and whoever the 1 of 2 outstanding dumbasses are should be hit in the head with a fastball as punishment.
He lost velocity and completely overhauled his style and became even greater.
He lost velocity and completely overhauled his style and became even greater.
Let me leave this here:
https://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/26/jaffe-on-the-greatness-of-mariano-rivera/
I hate the Yankees.
I should just start by getting that out of the way. If you’ve read any of my columns over the past couple years, I’ve probably made a reference to how evil they are in almost every one. Which is what makes this column that much more ridiculous. I can’t believe I’m doing it, but I’m going to talk about how great one of the Yankees is.
Why? Because Mariano Rivera is really, really, really good, and if even I can admit it, I can’t see who would disagree.
Rivera just pitched in his 1,000th game for the Yankees. That’s right, there are three zeros in that number. That’s the equivalent of pitching in every game for over six full seasons, which is almost unheard of. In fact, pitching in 1,000 games for one team was unheard of until Rivera notched a scoreless ninth inning yesterday. And that’s not even counting another 100 games of postseason and All-Star Games.
Longevity is great and all, but what makes the 41-year-old Rivera special is how successful he’s been over that span. His 572 saves are second all-time, but even that number doesn’t tell the whole story. His career ERA of 2.22 and WHIP of 1.00 would both be considered exceptional for a single season, but as career numbers they are mindboggling. Excluding his rookie season, he’s allowed one home run every 21.65 innings.
Consider a guy like Sandy Koufax, known as one of the best pitchers in history. He played in an era where pitchers dominated overall, which made the league lower the mound and shrink the strike zone after Koufax retired. Even so, Koufax’s career ERA is over half a run higher than Rivera’s, his WHIP is higher, his strikeout-to-walk ratio is substantially worse and he gave up home runs roughly twice as often. Yep, one of the best pitchers ever playing in an era where the rules and the game favored the pitcher still gave up more gopher balls than Rivera did to all those juicers.
And it’s not just Koufax. Look at any of the all-time greats. Cy Young himself can’t compare to Rivera in any of these categories except home runs, but home runs had hardly been invented yet in the pre-Ruth era. Since then, even the best pitchers–Warren Spahn, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, you name it–can’t match Rivera in any of these categories.
Stats not enough for you? How about clutch situations? Rivera pitches the most important inning in baseball, the ninth, better than anyone in history. How about the playoffs? Rivera’s playoff ERA of 0.71 is the best in history. His K/BB ratio is over five, his WHIP is under 0.8 and he’s given up just two home runs in 139.2 postseason innings. And his 42 playoff saves are the most in history.
Yeah, but he’s getting old, right? As a lifetime Yankee hater, my answer is “if only.” Since 2006, his ERA and WHIP are even lower, 1.98 and .90, respectively. In that span, he’s allowed only one run in 28 postseason innings.
If you’ve watched Rivera at any point over the last 15 years, you’re probably screaming one thing right about now: “And he only throws one pitch!”
That cutter, which might as well be named after Rivera at this point, has got to be the best pitch in baseball history. For the past decade and a half, Rivera has thrown this one pitch over 90 percent of the time, and it still baffles hitters. It’s not that fast (low-90s), it doesn’t have that much movement, but the timing of the movement and the location are just good enough that the best players in baseball haven’t been able to figure him out. Even for someone that’s rooted against him during every one of his 17 Major League seasons, there’s something incredibly impressive about a guy that can walk to the mound a thousand times and tell the hitter exactly what he’s going to see and still be able to get him out.
With this resume behind him, Rivera is clearly a Hall of Famer. That much is not in doubt. He’s now made a fairly irrefutable case as the best reliever of all time as well.
Frankly, I don’t think that’s strong enough. The Yankees have been, as hard as it is for me to say, the class of the Major Leagues for the period of time Rivera has been there. More than anyone other person–more than Joe Torre, George Steinbrenner and definitely more than Derek Jeter (don’t get me started), Rivera has been responsible for the Yankees’ modern dynasty.
At this point, Yankee fans and Yankee haters alike have to come to terms with the fact that Mariano Rivera is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Period.
I’ll leave you with one final statistic, and like many in baseball, it requires some explaining. Because players from different eras are so hard to compare, baseball stat freaks have found a way to control for era and ballpark, and the result is a statistic called ERA+. For ERA+, higher numbers are better than lower numbers, and the average is set at 100. The second-best ERA+ in history is Pedro Martinez’s 154. In total, 767 players have an ERA+ between 100 and 154.
Rivera? 205.
I will always hate the Yankees and I think everyone else should, too. But when your team is losing to the Evil Empire in the ninth inning, don’t turn off the television in frustration. Yes, your team will lose, but at least you can watch one of the best pitchers in baseball history.
https://www.stanforddaily.com/2011/05/26/jaffe-on-the-greatness-of-mariano-rivera/
I hate the Yankees.
I should just start by getting that out of the way. If you’ve read any of my columns over the past couple years, I’ve probably made a reference to how evil they are in almost every one. Which is what makes this column that much more ridiculous. I can’t believe I’m doing it, but I’m going to talk about how great one of the Yankees is.
Why? Because Mariano Rivera is really, really, really good, and if even I can admit it, I can’t see who would disagree.
Rivera just pitched in his 1,000th game for the Yankees. That’s right, there are three zeros in that number. That’s the equivalent of pitching in every game for over six full seasons, which is almost unheard of. In fact, pitching in 1,000 games for one team was unheard of until Rivera notched a scoreless ninth inning yesterday. And that’s not even counting another 100 games of postseason and All-Star Games.
Longevity is great and all, but what makes the 41-year-old Rivera special is how successful he’s been over that span. His 572 saves are second all-time, but even that number doesn’t tell the whole story. His career ERA of 2.22 and WHIP of 1.00 would both be considered exceptional for a single season, but as career numbers they are mindboggling. Excluding his rookie season, he’s allowed one home run every 21.65 innings.
Consider a guy like Sandy Koufax, known as one of the best pitchers in history. He played in an era where pitchers dominated overall, which made the league lower the mound and shrink the strike zone after Koufax retired. Even so, Koufax’s career ERA is over half a run higher than Rivera’s, his WHIP is higher, his strikeout-to-walk ratio is substantially worse and he gave up home runs roughly twice as often. Yep, one of the best pitchers ever playing in an era where the rules and the game favored the pitcher still gave up more gopher balls than Rivera did to all those juicers.
And it’s not just Koufax. Look at any of the all-time greats. Cy Young himself can’t compare to Rivera in any of these categories except home runs, but home runs had hardly been invented yet in the pre-Ruth era. Since then, even the best pitchers–Warren Spahn, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, you name it–can’t match Rivera in any of these categories.
Stats not enough for you? How about clutch situations? Rivera pitches the most important inning in baseball, the ninth, better than anyone in history. How about the playoffs? Rivera’s playoff ERA of 0.71 is the best in history. His K/BB ratio is over five, his WHIP is under 0.8 and he’s given up just two home runs in 139.2 postseason innings. And his 42 playoff saves are the most in history.
Yeah, but he’s getting old, right? As a lifetime Yankee hater, my answer is “if only.” Since 2006, his ERA and WHIP are even lower, 1.98 and .90, respectively. In that span, he’s allowed only one run in 28 postseason innings.
If you’ve watched Rivera at any point over the last 15 years, you’re probably screaming one thing right about now: “And he only throws one pitch!”
That cutter, which might as well be named after Rivera at this point, has got to be the best pitch in baseball history. For the past decade and a half, Rivera has thrown this one pitch over 90 percent of the time, and it still baffles hitters. It’s not that fast (low-90s), it doesn’t have that much movement, but the timing of the movement and the location are just good enough that the best players in baseball haven’t been able to figure him out. Even for someone that’s rooted against him during every one of his 17 Major League seasons, there’s something incredibly impressive about a guy that can walk to the mound a thousand times and tell the hitter exactly what he’s going to see and still be able to get him out.
With this resume behind him, Rivera is clearly a Hall of Famer. That much is not in doubt. He’s now made a fairly irrefutable case as the best reliever of all time as well.
Frankly, I don’t think that’s strong enough. The Yankees have been, as hard as it is for me to say, the class of the Major Leagues for the period of time Rivera has been there. More than anyone other person–more than Joe Torre, George Steinbrenner and definitely more than Derek Jeter (don’t get me started), Rivera has been responsible for the Yankees’ modern dynasty.
At this point, Yankee fans and Yankee haters alike have to come to terms with the fact that Mariano Rivera is one of the best pitchers in baseball history. Period.
I’ll leave you with one final statistic, and like many in baseball, it requires some explaining. Because players from different eras are so hard to compare, baseball stat freaks have found a way to control for era and ballpark, and the result is a statistic called ERA+. For ERA+, higher numbers are better than lower numbers, and the average is set at 100. The second-best ERA+ in history is Pedro Martinez’s 154. In total, 767 players have an ERA+ between 100 and 154.
Rivera? 205.
I will always hate the Yankees and I think everyone else should, too. But when your team is losing to the Evil Empire in the ninth inning, don’t turn off the television in frustration. Yes, your team will lose, but at least you can watch one of the best pitchers in baseball history.
He doesn’t get to be the dominant closer if he doesn’t have the lead to “save” to begin with.
not really sure about unanimous - there's already sports talk that closers shouldn't even be HOFers due to their only being 1-2 inning pitchers.
For me, he's a shoe-in.
For me, he's a shoe-in.
I don’t think there is anybody in this thread who feels otherwise:
1. HoFer
2. 1st Ballot guy
3. Possible highest % of votes
4. When you think of the position - he’s THE guy
This is a really fun thread. Lots of guys, including Zap taking part. Strong opinions, but in good fun. And yet you continue with personal attacks. You don't diminish me by doing so; you diminish yourself. Make your points and leave the personal stuff out of it.
And then you continue to make an argument that is directly contradicted by the data. On saves, Rivera and Hoffman are very very close. As has been said by others, one has to take into account the opportunity to get a save. If you do that, as I have pointed out, they are two saves apart. Two saves over the course of 18-19 year careers.
How much closer can two players be?
My one statistic is the one that matters. Saves. That is all a closer does. That is why they call him a closer. Saves. Sure, ERA is fun, and WAR is too, with all its faults, but at the end of the day, you only want a closer for one thing: saves. And when you look at that, Rivera and Hoffman are very close. Rivera wins on ERA and in the postseason by a ton, but he played for a much much better team and had lots more opportunities. He used them. That's why he's the best reliever of all time and deserves a first ballot HOF election, as I've said repeatedly.
I simply don't think he deserves the unique honor of being the first unanimous HOF electee. He was not the dominant baseball player of his era. Just the best closer.
Another dumb post. With your logic, only wins matter for starting pitchers. I guess DeGrom needs to give back his Cy Young.
[eyeroll]
DeGrom is the guy many thiink who actually did it all by himself.
If he had the great support at the plate and in the field (and on the bench) like the guy we’re talking about there would be no discussion on whether he was worthy of this year’s Cy Young.
Yes he does...No he doesn't, unless you think he is a hypocrite. Which I guess is possible!
Not sure what you’re saying, but Lloyd or Stanton don’t get in that game 2 outs in the 8th if the Yankees are winning 3-2
T defines "not getting the point" on this board. But he's not a bad guy once you get past that, and he needs a lot of help understanding things, so we forgive him.
What T doesn't get is that in order to win a game, you need for the other players on your team to score runs. De Grom didn't get that support. Reminded a lot of Fergie Jenkins for the Cubs. They gave him so little support it was pathetic. So for starters, ERA is really important in looking at starting pitching quality, since you don't know what kind of support he is getting from just looking at wins. ERA is the pitcher's side of the equation.
For closers (pay "close" attention, T, this is complex), the necessary runs have already been scored! You only come into the game when your team is ahead. All you have to do is pitch effectively. See the difference, T? I fear you don't. ERA, while a useful indicator, is truly secondary to saves for closers.
I’ve said something similar to your last paragraph to multiple posters and still really haven’t gotten a good response to that.
Nice try slick. A starter would never win a game ever, and listen carefully, if other players didn't score any runs. If it wasn't for other players, no starters would win and no closers would save.
Can't have it both ways Bilbo.
C'mon T, you're approaching Trump levels of density.
I just said that starters need runs to be scored by the other players to win. Here's my statement: "What T doesn't get is that in order to win a game, you need for the other players on your team to score runs." And then you say, "Oh no, the other players have to score runs." Uhhhh, yep. That's what I said.
And then I said, "For closers (pay "close" attention, T, this is complex), the necessary runs have already been scored!" That is what a close opportunity means.
I already apologized for your difficulties in following an argument, but you're really pushing the envelope now. Come back with some substance, or have a turkey sandwich. You're fading badly.
For the sake of more arguments, you can win a game 1-0... In the NL the starting pitcher can drive that run in
This has nothing to do with the argument... lol
This has nothing to do with the argument... lol
I'm saying in that spot you get the L-L matchup rather than the closer. Closer is only position in all of sports where his use is based on stats. i admit Mo gets used there more than most closers
Which is why Mo was so unique, when Mo was finished with a lefty in his hey day, they were usually left holding half a bat.
