um..... what????

PSUFTG

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Nov 1, 2021
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Michigan is still test optional (just like PSU) and I fully believe that it's just an abyssmal policy because grade inflation makes high school transcripts practivcally worthless. SAT/ACT are far from perfect but at least provide a context that is objective and can be easily compared between different high schools. It's been well documented how California public colleges have been suffering from their decision to not even allow SAT/ACT (not even option) as part of their admissions and how tons of students are being admitted with subpar math skills that aren't even high school level, let along college. The faculty are fighting to getting the system to go back to requiring tests for applications
This ^^^^

And it is so obvious that one would have to be excessively "not bright" - or some type of weird ideologue - OR generate self-serving benefits by ignoring it (always tend to go with the last one, though I have seen all three up-close-and-personal) to argue otherwise.

Interesting that at many educational institutions it was the faculty that lead the charge for the "banning assessment test scores" (or, probably more accurately, the most vocal portion of the faculty - which may have been a minority slice)

(Though, one thing to keep in mind wrt your post. At Michigan specifically most kids still submit test scores anyway. Michigan is very selective. And their enrollees absolutely knock it out of the park in that regard. The opposite of PSU in both regards.
And many of the uber-selective universities - with small enrollment numbers each year - go so in depth in the admissions process that they honestly don't need "test scores" in order to fully vet the capabilities of those they extend admissions offers to - but that is only a handful of schools)
 
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BobPSU92

Heisman
Aug 22, 2001
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"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some stupid made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some dunderheads in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that?
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")

Please take this opportunity to remember that Penn State sucks at everything.

😞
 

PSUForever

All-Conference
Feb 17, 2007
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This ^^^^

And it is so obvious that one would have to be excessively "not bright" - or some type of weird ideologue - OR generate self-serving benefits by ignoring it (always tend to go with the last one, though I have seen all three up-close-and-personal) to argue otherwise.

Interesting that at many educational institutions it was the faculty that lead the charge for the "banning assessment test scores" (or, probably more accurately, the most vocal portion of the faculty - which may have been a minority slice)

(Though, one thing to keep in mind wrt your post. At Michigan specifically most kids still submit test scores anyway. Michigan is very selective. And their enrollees absolutely knock it out of the park in that regard. The opposite of PSU in both regards.
And many of the uber-selective universities - with small enrollment numbers each year - go so in depth in the admissions process that they honestly don't need "test scores" in order to fully vet the capabilities of those they extend admissions offers to - but that is only a handful of schools)
Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.
 
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doctornick

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Sep 4, 2007
717
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Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.
Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.
 

Bison13

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May 26, 2013
3,633
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Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.
PSU is notorious for giving very little in terms of merit based aid.
 
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OUIrPSU

All-Conference
Oct 6, 2021
1,344
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"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire Covid time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that? Let's just give everyone an "A" and call it a day (much like K-12 - which just about everyone got to see up-close-and-person)'
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")
Yes, I do know.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on a Friday afternoon - especially with classes starting Monday - about teaching and learning, grades, or what happened in higher education during COVID. But I will say that I personally haven't noticed a meaningful decline in the abilities of my students over the past several years. The one obvious change I've seen is that they seem to have very little tolerance for traditional lecture-style teaching - which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't particularly enjoy it either.

Based on 30+ years of experience in higher education, as well as countless conversations with colleagues, I feel pretty confident saying that the current state of higher education in this country is nowhere near as dire as it's often portrayed. Are there problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. But I don't believe a pass/fail policy for first-year students is going to have any appreciable effect - positive or negative - on the abilities or long-term success of college students (in many disciplines).
 
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SleepyLion

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Sep 1, 2022
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Yes, I do know.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on a Friday afternoon - especially with classes starting Monday - about teaching and learning, grades, or what happened in higher education during COVID. But I will say that I personally haven't noticed a meaningful decline in the abilities of my students over the past several years. The one obvious change I've seen is that they seem to have very little tolerance for traditional lecture-style teaching - which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't particularly enjoy it either.

Based on 30+ years of experience in higher education, as well as countless conversations with colleagues, I feel pretty confident saying that the current state of higher education in this country is nowhere near as dire as it's often portrayed. Are there problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. But I don't believe a pass/fail policy for first-year students is going to have any appreciable effect - positive or negative - on the abilities or long-term success of college students (in many disciplines).
But we know what you have noticed about your students.

I bet you are glad to have that semester over.
 

Nitt1300

Heisman
Nov 2, 2008
7,490
14,168
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Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.
Two of my kids are Schreyer grads. I agree that merit aid should be better, both for in-state and out of state kids.

With the crap PSU wastes money on, maybe they could find some to benefit the best students.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.
son1 got $25k total oos
 

step.eng69

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Nov 7, 2012
3,717
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I thought this training was interesting:
A pole-climbing class for telephone electricians undergoing vocational training at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. This was part of the vocational training program organized by the Student Army Training Corps (S.A.T.C.) | ca. 1918

click the pic to enlarge:
1786746410041.jpeg
 
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step.eng69

All-American
Nov 7, 2012
3,717
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1786747411306.jpeg
"The best candidates for the trial are patients with good overall joint health who suffer from isolated damage to the articular cartilage surface – like a pothole on their knee joint," explains Grant.

Patients with this type of damage often complain of focal pain in one part of the knee, swelling that doesn't go away, or a sensation of the knee 'clicking' in and out of joint.

I was hoping for an alternate to joint replacement due to arthritis.
"The procedure won't address widespread or diffuse knee pain like that caused by arthritis," he said.

A New Option to Rescue Knee Cartilage
 

WaffleShopper

All-Conference
Sep 20, 2023
534
1,122
93
Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.
I have a kid in Schreyer now and it’s a completely different experience in Schreyer than for the typical non-honors student, especially living in one of the honors dorms. It has its own great little community, the ability to schedule classes early is huge, students have easy access to a lot of important faculty and alumni, and there are a ton of grants available for things like studying abroad.

I think the biggest issue for Schreyer is that it doesn’t have that elite reputation outside of PA and it’s competing with the Ivies for those out-of-state students. Maybe a little more money would help sway those students.
 

PSUFTG

All-Conference
Nov 1, 2021
2,467
3,700
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Yes, I do know.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on a Friday afternoon - especially with classes starting Monday - about teaching and learning, grades, or what happened in higher education during COVID. But I will say that I personally haven't noticed a meaningful decline in the abilities of my students over the past several years. The one obvious change I've seen is that they seem to have very little tolerance for traditional lecture-style teaching - which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't particularly enjoy it either.

Based on 30+ years of experience in higher education, as well as countless conversations with colleagues, I feel pretty confident saying that the current state of higher education in this country is nowhere near as dire as it's often portrayed. Are there problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. But I don't believe a pass/fail policy for first-year students is going to have any appreciable effect - positive or negative - on the abilities or long-term success of college students (in many disciplines).
Everyone's "lived experience" (Isn't that one of the most dangerous of all the made up buzzwords of the last decade?) is unique of course. So I can only assume that your's are what they are.

But they are certainly not of much similarity to the nationwide actual facts.

"Shocking percentage of college freshman can’t do remedial math, ‘disturbing’ new report finds
“The report, done by the school’s Senate Administration Workgroup on Admissions, said Math 2 was created as a high school remedial class. But they found that ‘most students had knowledge gaps that went back much further, to middle and even elementary school,’” Fox News reported. “It also revealed that in 2024, 25% of students placed in Math 2 had a 4.0 average in high school math. This meant many students’ GPAs did not match their actual proficiency in the subject.”

Allen argues that the COVID-19 pandemic may have had a significant impact on children’s education, but it isn’t solely at fault for this situation.

“A lot of the report that we just saw talks about concerns of the pandemic, which, yes, we haven’t caught up,” she said. “But it’s been worse for a 20-year trend. Again, it’s a generational issue.”



In any event, whether here at PSU, or at many institutions around the nation, it doesn't take a lot of work to even simply look at the number of classes/credit hours being expended on remedial level courses each semester (folks should take a stroll through the PSU Registrar's course selection website each semester :oops:

I won't even get into the results - the differential results - on things like graduation rates for kids who come in needing remedial high-school level courses, vs those who do not.
That data is all out there.

But the data you don't hear much about is how these remedial level courses are ATM machines for universities - cheap to run, and bring in the same amount of tuition $ of an advanced course with high cost.
There is a reason that most universities don't really care. And that is a big one.


And this phenomenon - listed in the report above wrt High Schools (read it again if you didn't the first time):
“It also revealed that in 2024, 25% of students placed in Math 2 had a 4.0 average in high school math. This meant many students’ GPAs did not match their actual proficiency in the subject"
Is now the same song-and-dance (give them a good grade and pass them along) is taking place not onlyu in K-12, but to varying degrees at UNIVERSITIES (all the way up to graduation.... what used to be referred to as "diploma mills", but now is called "revenue and enrollment management" )- something which should logically surprise no one. And there is no incentive - in fact there is DIS-incentive for Higher Education Inc. to care.

There are still, certainly, many many bright young kids growing and advancing their intellectual capabilities at universities across the country. No doubt. And not every "pocket" of higher education (or K-12 education) is the same. But it is a huge, strong, and (now) very long-lived trend in the wrong direction.

Turning that around will take informed, honest, and reasoned actions from many different players - too long a list, with too many responsibilities, to outline here.
Right now, there is not a whole lot of reason for optimism that is going to happen soon - and, of course, the self-preservation, self-interest, and financial interests of so many are NOT congruent with actually solving the problem. And, in fact - as pointed out above - there remains significant self-interests in maintaining the status quo (which kind of shows just how F-ed the system is at present).
 

PSUForever

All-Conference
Feb 17, 2007
1,759
1,775
113
Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.
Good information, thank you. We should at least get the best from PA into Schreyer because it is a good value. I agree with you that if Schreyer is one of the best honors programs then we need to attract the best from out of state with more of an attractive scholarship. These out of state students who have the credentials to get into the honors program have options elsewhere so we need to make it appealing to come to PSU.
 

BobPSU92

Heisman
Aug 22, 2001
44,792
36,644
113
We’re supposed to be trashing um. How did we get off track and start trashing PSU?

Oh. I must be new here. 😞
 
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