um..... what????

[PSUForever]

It is an abysmal policy - but unlike PSU, where the vast majority of enrollees never submit test scores (and it is not hard to figure out WHY they don't submit), the vast majority at UM DO submit test scores (because they are high scores, and it greatly increases their chances to get admitted.

UM remains very very selective (acceptance rate around 15%) and very very high yield (ie, if Michigan offers, they accept at a high rate). And those test scores - near 1500 on average, last I looked.

PSU? LOL You don't even want to know how they stack up on selectivity, yield, or scores.
Used to be PSU was just a tier below UMichigan (much like Illinois, Wisconsin and the other betters of the Big 10 that were not Northwestern and Michigan. Now? Not even in the same area code - by any measure. And sucking exhaust fumes from the likes of OSU, Rutgers, and Maryland.

Thanks to the PSU Presidents and Board members. Great job!!!!!!

"WHITE OUT BABY!!!"

I have noticed PSU has dropped way down the rankings. Maybe bottom 5 of the B10. What has happened? Epic fail by the administration. Is this new prez doing anything different or better to improve things? I would think an engineering degree from PSU still holds some weight in PA and surrounding areas.

 

[SleepyLion]

I know that there are a lot of people on this board who don't like change and this is a big shift from the way things were when a lot us were in school. What's wrong with a pass/fail system? Students still need to pass the class. If it helps freshman be more success, then it seems like a good idea to me.

We don't like change and we don't like the way things are now either.

 

[PSUForever]

We don't like change and we don't like the way things are now either.

Change can be good. This change is just dumb.

 

[Bison13]

I won’t stand for this slander of school counselors—I am one…

Seriously, you can copy and paste what you shared straight into what I’ve said to my own students. Our counseling department has been loud about this and administration keeps kneecapping us. Not really ours, it’s not like our principals have anymore power than us, it’s the school board, superintendent, and local/state politicians.

When we work with students one-on-one, the goal is to help them experience consequences, want something different, build responsibility, and mature into young professionals. But that whole process starts with step one—letting kids actually experience consequences—and we’re not even allowed that.

In my experience, the moment a student feels discomfort, boredom, or dislike toward school, the bureaucrats swoop in and pressure us to smooth it over. I’m not kidding, they make up spreadsheet after spreadsheet of my own students—someone far above me who I’ve never met—and send it to me with names of students and who are not cutting it. I do use it to do real, actual counseling, but the real pressure from above is to go to their teachers and convince them to give the kid some leeway. I refuse. It feels gross and the student hasn’t earned anything—which is also demeaning to them that we hold them to such low expectations! I can’t count how many times I’ve told a student point-blank, “If you don’t do the work, you won’t pass, and you’ll end up in summer school or retained.” And then, somehow, they move on anyways without having done anything themselves to change course.

It undercuts everything I’m trying to teach them about becoming a responsible adult.

That’s crazy, almost the exact opposite of every counselor I’ve ever dealt with. I’ve been in three different counties and there’s only ever been two counselors out of 30 that have even been able to calculate GPA the correct way. The best of the group is an old white guy that gets called racist on a daily basis because he’s the only guy who does what you do.

99.9% of the counselors I’ve worked with have no idea about what really goes on in a classroom, what a kid’s true abilities are or what the best path for that kid to take is.
Where do you work, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[PSUFTG]

We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID. I think helped and have no problem with what UM is proposing. Besides, do first-year grades really matter? There are plenty of other ways to assess student achievement/progress.

"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire Covid time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that? Let's just give everyone an "A" and call it a day (much like K-12 - which just about everyone got to see up-close-and-person)'
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")

 

[PSUFTG]

Michigan is still test optional (just like PSU) and I fully believe that it's just an abyssmal policy because grade inflation makes high school transcripts practivcally worthless. SAT/ACT are far from perfect but at least provide a context that is objective and can be easily compared between different high schools. It's been well documented how California public colleges have been suffering from their decision to not even allow SAT/ACT (not even option) as part of their admissions and how tons of students are being admitted with subpar math skills that aren't even high school level, let along college. The faculty are fighting to getting the system to go back to requiring tests for applications

This ^^^^

And it is so obvious that one would have to be excessively "not bright" - or some type of weird ideologue - OR generate self-serving benefits by ignoring it (always tend to go with the last one, though I have seen all three up-close-and-personal) to argue otherwise.

Interesting that at many educational institutions it was the faculty that lead the charge for the "banning assessment test scores" (or, probably more accurately, the most vocal portion of the faculty - which may have been a minority slice)

(Though, one thing to keep in mind wrt your post. At Michigan specifically most kids still submit test scores anyway. Michigan is very selective. And their enrollees absolutely knock it out of the park in that regard. The opposite of PSU in both regards.
And many of the uber-selective universities - with small enrollment numbers each year - go so in depth in the admissions process that they honestly don't need "test scores" in order to fully vet the capabilities of those they extend admissions offers to - but that is only a handful of schools)

 

[BobPSU92]

"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some stupid made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some dunderheads in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that?
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")

Please take this opportunity to remember that Penn State sucks at everything.

 

[PSUForever]

This ^^^^

And it is so obvious that one would have to be excessively "not bright" - or some type of weird ideologue - OR generate self-serving benefits by ignoring it (always tend to go with the last one, though I have seen all three up-close-and-personal) to argue otherwise.

Interesting that at many educational institutions it was the faculty that lead the charge for the "banning assessment test scores" (or, probably more accurately, the most vocal portion of the faculty - which may have been a minority slice)

(Though, one thing to keep in mind wrt your post. At Michigan specifically most kids still submit test scores anyway. Michigan is very selective. And their enrollees absolutely knock it out of the park in that regard. The opposite of PSU in both regards.
And many of the uber-selective universities - with small enrollment numbers each year - go so in depth in the admissions process that they honestly don't need "test scores" in order to fully vet the capabilities of those they extend admissions offers to - but that is only a handful of schools)

Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.

 

[doctornick]

Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.

Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.

 

[Bison13]

Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.

PSU is notorious for giving very little in terms of merit based aid.