um..... what????

[PSUFTG]

We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID. I think helped and have no problem with what UM is proposing. Besides, do first-year grades really matter? There are plenty of other ways to assess student achievement/progress.

"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire Covid time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that? Let's just give everyone an "A" and call it a day (much like K-12 - which just about everyone got to see up-close-and-person)'
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")

 

[PSUFTG]

Michigan is still test optional (just like PSU) and I fully believe that it's just an abyssmal policy because grade inflation makes high school transcripts practivcally worthless. SAT/ACT are far from perfect but at least provide a context that is objective and can be easily compared between different high schools. It's been well documented how California public colleges have been suffering from their decision to not even allow SAT/ACT (not even option) as part of their admissions and how tons of students are being admitted with subpar math skills that aren't even high school level, let along college. The faculty are fighting to getting the system to go back to requiring tests for applications

This ^^^^

And it is so obvious that one would have to be excessively "not bright" - or some type of weird ideologue - OR generate self-serving benefits by ignoring it (always tend to go with the last one, though I have seen all three up-close-and-personal) to argue otherwise.

Interesting that at many educational institutions it was the faculty that lead the charge for the "banning assessment test scores" (or, probably more accurately, the most vocal portion of the faculty - which may have been a minority slice)

(Though, one thing to keep in mind wrt your post. At Michigan specifically most kids still submit test scores anyway. Michigan is very selective. And their enrollees absolutely knock it out of the park in that regard. The opposite of PSU in both regards.
And many of the uber-selective universities - with small enrollment numbers each year - go so in depth in the admissions process that they honestly don't need "test scores" in order to fully vet the capabilities of those they extend admissions offers to - but that is only a handful of schools)

 

[BobPSU92]

"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some stupid made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some dunderheads in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that?
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")

Please take this opportunity to remember that Penn State sucks at everything.

 

[PSUForever]

This ^^^^

And it is so obvious that one would have to be excessively "not bright" - or some type of weird ideologue - OR generate self-serving benefits by ignoring it (always tend to go with the last one, though I have seen all three up-close-and-personal) to argue otherwise.

Interesting that at many educational institutions it was the faculty that lead the charge for the "banning assessment test scores" (or, probably more accurately, the most vocal portion of the faculty - which may have been a minority slice)

(Though, one thing to keep in mind wrt your post. At Michigan specifically most kids still submit test scores anyway. Michigan is very selective. And their enrollees absolutely knock it out of the park in that regard. The opposite of PSU in both regards.
And many of the uber-selective universities - with small enrollment numbers each year - go so in depth in the admissions process that they honestly don't need "test scores" in order to fully vet the capabilities of those they extend admissions offers to - but that is only a handful of schools)

Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.

 

[doctornick]

Regarding PSU and its academic capabilities: I would hope that some of the brightest in PA choose their Honors curriculum. They have one, correct? That helps separate these students from the general pop student rif raf like fraternity members who kill people.

Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.

 

[Bison13]

Schreyer Honors College is generally considered one of the top honors programs in the country and is highly competative to get into. The biggest downside is that they only give $5000 a year in scholarships for getting in. And while there are also some college/department based on scholarships that can be awarded, those are few in number. So if you are in state, going to PSU Schreyer for the in state cost minus $5000 a year is a decent deal and draws people. But if you are out of state and the base price is in the low $60K range, getting only $5K a year doesn't make it a very good deal - and those students are able to generally get strong merit offers at lots of schools including peer schools that make them more affordable. So I think PSU has had a lot of problems convincing out of state students to accept Schreyer offers.

IMHO, they need to start offering a bunch more money (make the award more like $15-20K) for out of state students who get into Schreyer if they want to actually be drawing those top students in.

PSU is notorious for giving very little in terms of merit based aid.

 

[OUIrPSU]

"We made pass/fail an option at my university during COVID"

As you probably know, many schools did - including PSU (which had something called "alternative grading", or some made up buzzword term - which basically gave kids the option of getting a "grade", or getting a "pass". Of course, as long as they could fog a mirror, they were wise to take "grade" - see below)

I can't speak for what transpired at your school, but - for sure - at PSU and many others it made the entire Covid time an educational joke.
It turned into a level of grade inflation - and learning DEFLATION - that was stunning.
GPAs university wide went up by a staggering level - some in administration probably took that as "Gee, what a wonderful new system". Anyone even tangentially involved in Higher Ed Inc knows THAT mindset.
Of course, actual education went into the crapper - but who cares about that? Let's just give everyone an "A" and call it a day (much like K-12 - which just about everyone got to see up-close-and-person)'
And many of the damaging aspects that really took off during that time - including the "other than in-person" instruction - became ingrained and remains to this day.

That is all very considered at intentional [SPOILER: It's all about the $, with a dash of lack of competence] - at least at PSU, and I doubt PSU stands completely alone in that regard (though I am quite sure PSU is among the "market leaders")

Yes, I do know.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on a Friday afternoon - especially with classes starting Monday - about teaching and learning, grades, or what happened in higher education during COVID. But I will say that I personally haven't noticed a meaningful decline in the abilities of my students over the past several years. The one obvious change I've seen is that they seem to have very little tolerance for traditional lecture-style teaching - which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't particularly enjoy it either.

Based on 30+ years of experience in higher education, as well as countless conversations with colleagues, I feel pretty confident saying that the current state of higher education in this country is nowhere near as dire as it's often portrayed. Are there problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. But I don't believe a pass/fail policy for first-year students is going to have any appreciable effect - positive or negative - on the abilities or long-term success of college students (in many disciplines).

 

[SleepyLion]

Yes, I do know.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on a Friday afternoon - especially with classes starting Monday - about teaching and learning, grades, or what happened in higher education during COVID. But I will say that I personally haven't noticed a meaningful decline in the abilities of my students over the past several years. The one obvious change I've seen is that they seem to have very little tolerance for traditional lecture-style teaching - which is perfectly fine with me, since I don't particularly enjoy it either.

Based on 30+ years of experience in higher education, as well as countless conversations with colleagues, I feel pretty confident saying that the current state of higher education in this country is nowhere near as dire as it's often portrayed. Are there problems that need to be addressed? Absolutely. But I don't believe a pass/fail policy for first-year students is going to have any appreciable effect - positive or negative - on the abilities or long-term success of college students (in many disciplines).

But we know what you have noticed about your students.

I bet you are glad to have that semester over.

 

[OUIrPSU]

But we know what you have noticed about your students.

I bet you are glad to have that semester over.

Ha! It actually turned out fine, thanks to the unseasonally chilly spring semester weather (and my desire not to be fired).