Some UNC Ribeye for you....

[BBUK_anon]

On the front page of Yahoo....who'd a thunk it. They sure are trying to keep the basketball aspect off the page though. They are pulling out all stops..

http://college.usatoday.com/2015/12/29/univ-of-n-c-email-shows-athletes-passed/

(I know article states USA today but it is on Yahoo's front page too.)

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Why exactly doesn't this investigation go back to win the scandal actually started?

 

[Mark Gastineau]

 

[docholiday51]

These last 2 posts would be enough to convict in a criminal case where the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. The standard is less (one would think) in an administrative proceeding like a NCAA investigation

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I finally figured out who Bobby is. Since he writes in full sentences I couldn't see it for a while. Tickle from Moonshiners. Dumb as a box of rocks and equally hard headed - usually drunk. I think this explains a lot.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

The most damning thing to me is the fact that athletes comprised 91% of enrollments in fake classes as late as 2011-12, when they were finally caught.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

I finally figured out who Bobby is. Since he writes in full sentences I couldn't see it for a while. Tickle from Moonshiners. Dumb as a box of rocks and equally hard headed - usually drunk. I think this explains a lot.

That's insulting to Tickle! Definitely my favorite character on Moonshiners.

 

[zannmann]

The longer this goes on, the more it feels like UNC is gonna walk.

 

[docholiday51]

The most damning thing to me is the fact that athletes comprised 91% of enrollments in fake classes as late as 2011-12, when they were finally caught.

The NCAA and the media have ignored and danced around this issue for 4 or 5 years. The level of cheating dwarfs UCLA and Sam Gilbert in the 60's or the 50$ handshakes and what ever else went on at UK in the Sutton years. UNC goes merrily on their way with their coke coler and moon pie. Dadgummit , we're just a good ole country basketball team minding our own business over here.

 

[KMKAT]

Wow, those stats from 2002-06 are very abusive. It looks like every athlete in that school took one of these classes.

This is ridiculous that you can't come up with a very persuasive decision to shut down anyone involved in that program during that time.

There is no justification to allow banners to continue to hang; they took Memphis' runner-up from one incident, and took hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The NCAA has got nothing to justify letting UNC get off easy on this one. Roy is totally wrong thinking the worse is over.

The Madoff case only took 2 years to resolve, and this period is totally ridiculous in its slow completion. The Rose allegations were completed in less than 5 months.

The NCAA is completely incompetent while Emmert goes around pompously touting his achievements. He has time for everything but resolving the UNC scandal. The university is only stonewalling, but the NCAA appears to be okay with it.

 

[AirRaidFan_rivals164446]

Thanks for the update.

 

[carbonlib23]

here's some shrooms for your ribeye.....pretty soon, the cork is coming out of the malbec....


http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-ncaa-case.html

 

[Spanish Radio]

here's some shrooms for your ribeye.....pretty soon, the cork is coming out of the malbec....


http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-ncaa-case.html

That is a great site. Kudos the person who has put in that much time and effort. The ADHD and learning disability issue is unexplored territory that the NCAA should be investigating throughout college sports.

 

[kyups01]

Can someone just give a breakdown of this god forsaken link in its simplest form for those who cannot view it?

 

[MNantz]

As coach K would say !! Amazing , simply amazing, and even more amazing likely very little will happen to those cheating some beaches !

 

[Spanish Radio]

Can someone just give a breakdown of this god forsaken link in its simplest form for those who cannot view it?

Basically he says the NCAA will not send an amended notice of allegations to UNC. UNC and the NCAA are likely in a summary disposition phase which is basically negotiating the penalties.

I will add this excerpt below from http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-ncaa-case.html

1. The evidence clearly implicates many of UNC's athletic programs, as the NCAA stated "particularly football, men's basketball, and women's basketball", the three revenue programs at UNC. Thus, the proactive punishments would have significant impact on UNC's future revenues. This would likely be the least palatable punishment for UNC.
2. Retroactive punishments would have the most visible impact on UNC's men's basketball program, as UNC's 2005 and 2009 NCAA championships would be vacated, along with numerous wins over the period of the fraud. The complicating factor is that the fraud was prolonged. By UNC's own admission, the classes stretched over 23 years, though Wainstein analyzed only 18. The 23 years would place a target on UNC's 1993 NCAA title under the late Dean E. Smith. The likelihood that UNC would accept a punishment vacating this title is minuscule. However, the UNC data produced by Wainstein clearly show that UNC's men's basketball program were first major beneficiaries of the paper class scheme.
3. Proactive punishments would immediately affect this year's UNC MBB team, which is currently ranked #2 in the nation and one of the favorites to win the NCAA title. So, UNC would be unlikely to accept a punishment involving a postseason ban this year. Further, such punishments would also affect UNC's football team, at a time when it is experiencing success on the field and in recruiting. However, compared to UNC's MBB team, UNC football is largely an afterthought.
4. Also complicating matters is the fact that other schools who have been previously punished are watching this case very closely and would raise considerable protest should the NCAA punishment on UNC be disproportionately lenient when compared to the depth and breadth of UNC's fraud.
5. Further, the punishment levied on UNC will have implications on the current litigation facing the NCAA, such as the O'Bannon and Jenkins cases. The NCAA claims education is adequate compensation. Yet, UNC's case clearly refutes that claim. So, either the NCAA punishes UNC for reneging on its duty of providing an education to its students, or it loses its education argument.

(There is more)

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Retroactive punishments would have the most visible impact on UNC's men's basketball program, as UNC's 2005 and 2009 NCAA championships would be vacated, along with numerous wins over the period of the fraud. The complicating factor is that the fraud was prolonged. By UNC's own admission, the classes stretched over 23 years, though Wainstein analyzed only 18. The 23 years would place a target on UNC's 1993 NCAA title under the late Dean E. Smith. The likelihood that UNC would accept a punishment vacating this title is minuscule. However, the UNC data produced by Wainstein clearly show that UNC's men's basketball program were first major beneficiaries of the paper class scheme.

This is what blows my mind. While the hell is Smith untouchable? Nobody should be beyond reproach.

 

[Xception]

So UNC calls their violations irregularities and instead of self imposing penalties they implement reforms , well isn't that nifty of them . Loaded with integrity is Chapel Hill .

 

[Spanish Radio]

One more excerpt from http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-ncaa-case.html

Why did the NCAA not charge UNC with academic fraud in the Notice of Allegations (NOA)? This is a common question that merits answering.

Let's start step by step.

First, how does the NCAA define "academic fraud"? Answer: it doesn't. It leaves the definition of academic misconduct, including academic fraud (e.g., changing grades, coaches taking tests for athletes, etc.), up to the member institutions.

1. If the institution admits that misconduct occurred, the NCAA can allege that such misconduct rose to the level of academic fraud or not. For more on how the NCAA addresses academic misconduct, click on the blue button on the "Athletics Involvement in Fraud" page.
2. Note the word "allegation". This is somewhat analogous to a legal complaint. The Plaintiff claims/alleges some sort of injury/damages have occurred to it as a result of some actions by the Defendant. Unlike a legal case, where injury and damages can be quantified at a later date based on the testimony of fact and expert witnesses, the NCAA provides the basis for its allegation in the NOA. The NCAA alleges the infraction has occurred, and the member institution can either a) stipulate to the fact (agree with NCAA that it occurred) in which case there is just the issue of punishment, or b) challenge all or part of the allegation.
3. But what if an institution already admits to the fraud before the NOA is issued? Then there is no reason for the NCAA to "allege" something to which the institution has already stipulated. The parties both agree that fraud occurred.
4. So did UNC already admit to academic fraud? YES. In its response to SACS, its accrediting body, UNC admitted to longstanding academic fraud. Since the NCAA uses the institution's own definition (in this case UNC's definition of fraud), if UNC says that it committed academic fraud, then that's academic fraud according to the NCAA as well. UNC's SACS response can be found by clicking on the "Carolina Commitment" link on the home page of this site.
5. So, since UNC has already admitted to academic fraud, there is no reason for the NCAA to allege it.
6. The question then becomes, did this academic fraud constitute impermissible benefits to any student-athletes at UNC? That question is indeed addressed in the NOA, and I won't beat a dead horse here, since it has been discussed ad nauseam (and yet, so many commentators at ESPN still don't seem to grasp it). But that's another story.
7. Suffice it to say, that the NCAA and Wainstein both specifically named UNC's football and men's basketball programs (NCAA also named women's basketball) as particular beneficiaries of the decades-long academic fraud scheme at UNC. Both supported their claims with overwhelming documentary evidence, some of which has been publicly released. (Notably, the interviews with Wayne Walden, Boxill, etc. have NOT been released).

 

[jaknfo90]

So you say that this poster's waning confidence is giving you more confidence that things will turn out better. Which must mean that you trust this guy's word on some level.

But then he goes outright to state that wins and titles will be vacated, show-causes will be handed out, fines, possible tournament bans, recruiting restrictions, probation, and scholarship reductions will happen. But you argue semantics to state that those things won't happen? Do you trust the intelligence and integrity of the NCAA? Who knows why they didn't list swimming. What they did list was Men's Basketball. I'm not sure how you can take that quote to mean that those classes are not considered impermissible benefits.

Sounds like a lot of rationalization to me.

And even if you're 100% right on what you say, all I know is that I wouldn't trust the NCAA one way or the other regarding their ability to do their jobs consistently. I'd be pretty afraid.

All I know is that UNC is a cheating piece of sh*t school and fans that take solace that somehow they'll get away with cheating on a scale unheard of to date are no better. Every game won playing that 4 corners crap should be vacated regardless since it wasn't really basketball but rather chickensh*t keep away. The teams playing them should've used another playground favorite, "cream the guy with the ball."

 

[kyups01]

Basically he says the NCAA will not send an amended notice of allegations to UNC. UNC and the NCAA are likely in a summary disposition phase which is basically negotiating the penalties.

I will add this excerpt below from http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-ncaa-case.html

1. The evidence clearly implicates many of UNC's athletic programs, as the NCAA stated "particularly football, men's basketball, and women's basketball", the three revenue programs at UNC. Thus, the proactive punishments would have significant impact on UNC's future revenues. This would likely be the least palatable punishment for UNC.
2. Retroactive punishments would have the most visible impact on UNC's men's basketball program, as UNC's 2005 and 2009 NCAA championships would be vacated, along with numerous wins over the period of the fraud. The complicating factor is that the fraud was prolonged. By UNC's own admission, the classes stretched over 23 years, though Wainstein analyzed only 18. The 23 years would place a target on UNC's 1993 NCAA title under the late Dean E. Smith. The likelihood that UNC would accept a punishment vacating this title is minuscule. However, the UNC data produced by Wainstein clearly show that UNC's men's basketball program were first major beneficiaries of the paper class scheme.
3. Proactive punishments would immediately affect this year's UNC MBB team, which is currently ranked #2 in the nation and one of the favorites to win the NCAA title. So, UNC would be unlikely to accept a punishment involving a postseason ban this year. Further, such punishments would also affect UNC's football team, at a time when it is experiencing success on the field and in recruiting. However, compared to UNC's MBB team, UNC football is largely an afterthought.
4. Also complicating matters is the fact that other schools who have been previously punished are watching this case very closely and would raise considerable protest should the NCAA punishment on UNC be disproportionately lenient when compared to the depth and breadth of UNC's fraud.
5. Further, the punishment levied on UNC will have implications on the current litigation facing the NCAA, such as the O'Bannon and Jenkins cases. The NCAA claims education is adequate compensation. Yet, UNC's case clearly refutes that claim. So, either the NCAA punishes UNC for reneging on its duty of providing an education to its students, or it loses its education argument.

(There is more)

Thanks a lot, really appreciated!!

 

[Fannin12]

If you are waiting for NCAA sanctions for UNC then good luck to you!

 

[carbonlib23]

well, they're coming.....just a mater of when....looks as tho they are gonna let them have a shot at the natty this year to make up the 2 (maybe 3) they are going to lose...

UNC will hoist a banner commemorating "LOSING ONLY 2"

 

[westerncat]

well, they're coming.....just a mater of when....looks as tho they are gonna let them have a shot at the natty this year to make up the 2 (maybe 3) they are going to lose...

UNC will hoist a banner commemorating "LOSING ONLY 2"

UNC*** cheaters will not lose any banners. Little will be done.

 

[carbonlib23]

As stated in various comments/assessments by many.....the NCAA is on the rope with the Obannon case......they have to step up and prove that they are a legit guardian of the "student athlete".......MANY other schools are already to sue the NCAA if they let unc off the hook easy...

I'd rather the hammer come down before the post season starts this year......that would hurt.

 

[Mark Gastineau]

As stated in various comments/assessments by many.....the NCAA is on the rope with the Obannon case......they have to step up and prove that they are a legit guardian of the "student athlete".......MANY other schools are already to sue the NCAA if they let unc off the hook easy...

I'd rather the hammer come down before the post season starts this year......that would hurt.

Read on our home board that Boeheim and Syracuse are prepared to file a lawsuit if UNC is punished appropriately. Would hope that a lot of other schools/coaches jump on that lawsuit if that's the case.

 

[TruBluCatFan]

Read on our home board that Boeheim and Syracuse are prepared to file a lawsuit if UNC is punished appropriately. Would hope that a lot of other schools/coaches jump on that lawsuit if that's the case.

Not trying to be a smart *** but do you mean punished "Inappropriately?" Wouldn't everyone want them punished appropriately?

 

[Mark Gastineau]

Not trying to be a smart *** but do you mean punished "Inappropriately?" Wouldn't everyone want them punished appropriately?

Ah, my bad. Meant to say if they were not punished appropriately. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[TruBluCatFan]

Ah, my bad. Meant to say if they were not punished appropriately. Thanks for the heads up.

I assumed that is what you meant but you never know with those crazy Orangemen. I hate when my brain works faster than my fingers and I leave out words.

 

[FiveStarCat]

Read on our home board that Boeheim and Syracuse are prepared to file a lawsuit if UNC is punished appropriately. Would hope that a lot of other schools/coaches jump on that lawsuit if that's the case.

I'm sure Calipari would love to jump in on that action as well.

 

[kybassfan]

Read on our home board that Boeheim and Syracuse are prepared to file a lawsuit if UNC is punished appropriately. Would hope that a lot of other schools/coaches jump on that lawsuit if that's the case.

Not sure a member institution would have any luck with that at all. What would have an effect is if a bunch of schools withdrew in protest from the NCAA. However, I'm not sure the NCAA has ever lost a challenge in court from a member institution.

Now Boeheim might have some luck if he can demonstrate that a finding hurt him personally AND he was not afforded due process.

 

[Jkwo_rivals113955]

The most damning thing to me is the fact that athletes comprised 91% of enrollments in fake classes as late as 2011-12, when they were finally caught.

Well, no, see - the 9% of non-athletes clearly demonstrates that athletics is not at all part of the picture, and that you can't sensibly punish anyone in the athletic realm for this.

You know how it is, misunderstandings with rogue teachers who hate education, and hate it equally for all students, etc.

 

[UKrazycat2_rivals]

Well, no, see - the 9% of non-athletes clearly demonstrates that athletics is not at all part of the picture, and that you can't sensibly punish anyone in the athletic realm for this.

You know how it is, misunderstandings with rogue teachers who hate education, and hate it equally for all students, etc.

[laughing] [thumb2]

 

[Mark Gastineau]

You know how it is, misunderstandings with rogue teachers who hate education, and hate it equally for all students, etc.

I've used this clip over and over to sum up UNC fans, but it's just so perfect:

 

[KMKAT]

The 3 levels of punishment: retroactive, proactive, and financial

Retroactive involves wins.....so when you lose those wins, those banners gotta come down with them. I don't see it being a chopped up season by season review, avoiding the '05 & '09 seasons. I guess they lose a few NIT victories as well.

Proactive: going forward, how to make sure this scheme never establishes itself again. Loss of schollies, postseason play, & we might have a new coaching staff.

Financial: Tourney money, academic bonuses given to one Roy Williams. How about conference money that was shared with them?

Having acknowledged 'fraud' which are beyond irregularities, I see punishment at all 3 levels.

This year's team might be playing for nothing going forward. Syracuse however, pulled the rug out from under themselves by not participating in the conference tournament, but self penalized, something UNC would never do.

Syracuse's investigation was 94 pages. The Wainstein report was 136 pages. The NCAAs report should be just a book sleeve on the Wainstein report and point out how UNC was a repeat offender as a university. The other athletic programs will take a major hit as well.

You know Roy is lying when he tells everyone with a microphone that their number one priority is to make sure all his kids get a good education.

Here is an article from 2014 with a poll on whether Roy should lose his job, and what the NCAA would have done to Memphis if they had operated in this manner:

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20141023/PC20/141029714

NOTE: This link comes from the company that has WLEX-13 as a subsidiary of their financial holdings.

North Carolina basketball players enrolled in fake AFAM classes by North Carolina head coach, according to the report:

Dean Smith (1993-1997) - 54.

Bill Guthridge (1997-2000) - 17.

Matt Doherty (2000-2003) - 42.

Roy Williams (2003-2011) - 167.

As Coach Doherty was told after taking over for Guthridge, don't change anything on the academic side. He sure didn't.

 

[carbonlib23]

I'll have my ribeye rare........bloody and dragged across the grill......look for me on the news the day the banners come down....

 

[Spanish Radio]

For those in the Jay Bilas' camp that Men's Basketball was not mentioned in the NCAA notice of Allegations:

Page 48-49 of the NCAA's Notice of Allegations sent to UNC***.

Specifically, individuals in the academic administration on campus, particularly in the college of arts and sciences, did not sufficiently monitor the AFRI/AFAM and ASPSA departments or provide appropriate supervision for these academic units and their staffs. The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for 18 years. This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use these courses through special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk student-athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball and women's basketball.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

Jay Bilas said they were not alleged to have done any wrongdoings...not that they weren't mentioned. A lot of things were mentioned in the NOA, including the words "NCAA" and "the" and "a"...but they also weren't accused of any wrongdoings. In the passage you quote, who are those being accused of wrongdoing (hint: it's not MBB)?

To those who think other schools are lining up to sue the NCAA if UNC is not punished. Are you serious? On what grounds? Jimmy B is going to sue because his punishment was too severe and he's going to use UNC as a factor...even though he was specifically mentioned in the NOA and specifically charged and convicted (so to speak), yet no athletic member at UNC was accused of anything. Sure, they/he can try to sue and they/he can even argue using UNC (assuming that they're not punished), but that would be incredibly dumb...they are not dumb people. Not to mention, why would they leak this to posters on message boards, or to people who are unprofessional enough to post it on message boards. I think a lot of people are getting trolled pretty hard by the same poster over on packpride. But, I'm sure I'm not going to change anyone's mind...I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens and if UNC's MBB team is not given the death penalty how long it will take before the "kraken" and all those lawsuits follow from Syracuse and Jimmy B and SMU and OSU and USC and any other school that has been mentioned by this same poser (sorry I meant poster) over the course of a few months. [laughing]

 

[Lumpy 2]

Jay Bilas said they were not alleged to have done any wrongdoings...not that they weren't mentioned. A lot of things were mentioned in the NOA, including the words "NCAA" and "the" and "a"...but they also weren't accused of any wrongdoings. In the passage you quote, who are those being accused of wrongdoing (hint: it's not MBB)?

To those who think other schools are lining up to sue the NCAA if UNC is not punished. Are you serious? On what grounds? Jimmy B is going to sue because his punishment was too severe and he's going to use UNC as a factor...even though he was specifically mentioned in the NOA and specifically charged and convicted (so to speak), yet no athletic member at UNC was accused of anything. Sure, they/he can try to sue and they/he can even argue using UNC (assuming that they're not punished), but that would be incredibly dumb...they are not dumb people. Not to mention, why would they leak this to posters on message boards, or to people who are unprofessional enough to post it on message boards. I think a lot of people are getting trolled pretty hard by the same poster over on packpride. But, I'm sure I'm not going to change anyone's mind...I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens and if UNC's MBB team is not given the death penalty how long it will take before the "kraken" and all those lawsuits follow from Syracuse and Jimmy B and SMU and OSU and USC and any other school that has been mentioned by this same poser (sorry I meant poster) over the course of a few months. [laughing]

What martinism posted was a direct quote from the NOA. It accuses UNC of providing impermissible benefits in the form of fake courses to maintain eligibility for their athletes and it specifically mentions mbb as a recipient of those impermissible benefits. If a mbb player was given grades in fake classes to maintain his eligibility, as the NOA alleges, he would be ineligible from the time those grades were given.

You cite Bilas as a source for claiming that mbb was not accused of wrongdoing in the NOA. Which program was specifically accused in the NOA, and if no program was accused, why did the NCAA send the NOA since, according to you and Bilas, they can't be punished without being specifically charged?

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Jay Bilas said they were not alleged to have done any wrongdoings...not that they weren't mentioned. A lot of things were mentioned in the NOA, including the words "NCAA" and "the" and "a"...but they also weren't accused of any wrongdoings. In the passage you quote, who are those being accused of wrongdoing (hint: it's not MBB)?

To those who think other schools are lining up to sue the NCAA if UNC is not punished. Are you serious? On what grounds? Jimmy B is going to sue because his punishment was too severe and he's going to use UNC as a factor...even though he was specifically mentioned in the NOA and specifically charged and convicted (so to speak), yet no athletic member at UNC was accused of anything. Sure, they/he can try to sue and they/he can even argue using UNC (assuming that they're not punished), but that would be incredibly dumb...they are not dumb people. Not to mention, why would they leak this to posters on message boards, or to people who are unprofessional enough to post it on message boards. I think a lot of people are getting trolled pretty hard by the same poster over on packpride. But, I'm sure I'm not going to change anyone's mind...I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens and if UNC's MBB team is not given the death penalty how long it will take before the "kraken" and all those lawsuits follow from Syracuse and Jimmy B and SMU and OSU and USC and any other school that has been mentioned by this same poser (sorry I meant poster) over the course of a few months. [laughing]

You are pretty dense on this issue. The Lack of Institutional Control charge is a wildcard that could deal a serious blow to UNC in general, affecting all sports programs. But the only issue that interests me is the charge of impermissible benefits. Would you care to define what that means Bobby? The impermissible benefits charge points the finger at both the academic side of UNC and the players. If UNC avoids getting hammered over impermissible benefits, they will get off easy. If not, they will lose banners. MBB, as a staff, does not have to be accused of anything. Clearly, the school has been accused of maintaining eligibility in violation of NCAA bylaws and at the same time, those players are being accused of accepting the benefits. No one on MBB staff is required to have done anything wrong for UNC to get hammered by the NCAA.