The courses ARE NOT a impermissible benefit. The impermissible benefit charge is from advisors asking for athletes to be placed in those classes. I've yet to see a email or any proof that a MBB player received that special benefit.
Some UNC Ribeye for you....
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The courses ARE NOT a impermissible benefit. The impermissible benefit charge is from advisors asking for athletes to be placed in those classes. I've yet to see a email or any proof that a MBB player received that special benefit.
Well, Bobby, no one here should have faith that the NCAA will do its job. Your programs the slimiest in history and all you do is play dime store lawyer just like Bilas. You are not embarrassed by your program and that is just pathetic.
That's the worst part. That UNC didn't have the decency to genuinely be outraged by what went on in their school. Cheating has become so ingrained in who they are as a University that they no longer recognize it as wrong. It is simply an obstacle to be navigated around until it's back to business as usual.
You don't get that way overnight. This is institutionalized. Part of who they are. Their culture. To them, they are entitled to it.
You don't get that way overnight. This is institutionalized. Part of who they are. Their culture. To them, they are entitled to it.
Maybe if UNC hadn't redacted nearly every name in the evidence released to the public...
So didn't the NCAA have any proof when they charged UNC with providing impermissible academic benefits to maintain mbb players' eligibility or was it not a NCAA violation for the players to receive those benefits?
Well, all they have to do is expose the transcripts for all UNC fans to see the real truth. No one wants to acknowledge that free grades were given even if the transcripts prove it.
One Rashad McCant allegation proves enough for me, along with the # of AFAM classes (167!!) that were taken by the basketball roster under Roy's watch!
Oh year, and Wayne Walden decided it might be time to leave a job he has held since he knew Roy: (purely coincidental of course)
From this article: http://collegebasketball.nbcsports....professor-wayne-waldens-name-mentioned-again/
"Walden knew every detail about the academic lives of those players; he had to. He registered them for their courses, for crying out loud. [And that means he got on the phone with the Department of African and Afro-American Studies and he put them in paper classes.] Walden also spoke with Williams every day; he had to. Williams’ claim that he had no earthly idea that his players were floating along on paper classes – and that he never would have guessed that one of his stars was enrolled in four no-show classes in the spring of 2005 – is nothing more than a confidence trick." Oh, and McCants gets a 4.0 for doing zilch his last semester.
Boeheim is licking his chops on this one, and you can bet he's watching very closely.
One Rashad McCant allegation proves enough for me, along with the # of AFAM classes (167!!) that were taken by the basketball roster under Roy's watch!
Oh year, and Wayne Walden decided it might be time to leave a job he has held since he knew Roy: (purely coincidental of course)
From this article: http://collegebasketball.nbcsports....professor-wayne-waldens-name-mentioned-again/
"Walden knew every detail about the academic lives of those players; he had to. He registered them for their courses, for crying out loud. [And that means he got on the phone with the Department of African and Afro-American Studies and he put them in paper classes.] Walden also spoke with Williams every day; he had to. Williams’ claim that he had no earthly idea that his players were floating along on paper classes – and that he never would have guessed that one of his stars was enrolled in four no-show classes in the spring of 2005 – is nothing more than a confidence trick." Oh, and McCants gets a 4.0 for doing zilch his last semester.
Boeheim is licking his chops on this one, and you can bet he's watching very closely.
It's truly amazing how pompous UNC acted before all of this. The Carolina Way, and all that nonsense. Now there's glaring proof that "The Carolina Way" was an absolute joke, that the school was cheating and helping athletes in numerous sports, and that regular students were even able to get completely bogus grades. Hell, the accreditation for the entire school has been called into question. Yet, you'll never hear one of those idiots admit a damn thing. All to save Dean Smith and the false sense of integrity he represents. Everyone involved in Chapel Hill should be absolutely ashamed of themselves, and the perpetrators of this taxpayer-funded fraudl should be facing criminal charges.
It's also amazing how they vilify McCants for telling the truth, especially given the fact that his transcript is now public.
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Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. The NCAA placed this:
Page 48-49 of the NCAA's Notice of Allegations sent to UNC***.
Specifically, individuals in the academic administration on campus, particularly in the college of arts and sciences, did not sufficiently monitor the AFRI/AFAM and ASPSA departments or provide appropriate supervision for these academic units and their staffs. The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for 18 years. This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use these courses through special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk student-athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men's basketball and women's basketball.
in the Notice of Allegations without proof. ok...[laughing]
What is amazing is that the FBI hasn't show up to put people in jail for Pell Grant fraud yet. Forget NCAA sanctions and sporting events. there should be butts in jail already over what went on.
From the time given, or from the beginning of the class? Considering that a) academically they were 'fake' classes, and b) it was a given that the grade then would be fraudulent.
Just to add a bit to your point, we are not contesting this in a court of law. While there are procedures, the governing body is not compelled to follow them for a member institution. The NCAA is free to assume that if the MBB player was in the fraudulent course that the MBB program advised them in that direction. That will stick to a member institution. The same argument would need to pass muster for due diligence with a coach if the finding had a direct impact on the coach (aka, give back the money.). Essentially Uncfan's point is irrelevant as it might regard a member institution.
Just so we're clear, are you saying the classes are being alleged to be part of the impermissible benefits?
Read it again and again and again. I know it is painful but you may as well let it sink in. Your university is an embarrassment. If you can't understand the above then may I ask if you have an African American studies degree from UNC***?
If the SACS probation isn't lifted, that is a possibility.
Insult me all you want, but please do answer the question. Are you telling us that the irregular classes are part of the impermissible benefits alleged by the NCAA? Simple yes or no will be sufficient.
Why would asking you if you are a graduate of UNC's prestigious African American program be an insult?
Why has UNC been placed on probation by SACs?
Asking for placement within a course is one of the many extra benefits allegedly provided to UNC athletes. It's not the sole one.
Regarding men's basketball, you may want to read the NOA more closely the next time. FI118 provided one example. The NOA states:
"January 5, 2005 – Email from Crowder to Walden. This includes, but is not limited to, Crowder discussing men's basketball student-athletes and the courses to which she added them."
Men's basketball is all over the NOA. Perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain from discussing this topic outside of a UNC board.
Guess he didn't see McCants and Peppers transcripts. Telling that the other players that said McCants was lying refuse to show their transcripts, that in of itself is telling.
I will let this guys site answer it. Jiggletooth didn't answer mine about SACs because it leads into the reason. This bluedevilicious guy has dedicated a great deal more time to this than I have so I will let his site explain it.
http://www.bluedevilicious.com/updates-on-unc-ncaa-case.html
Why did the NCAA not charge UNC with academic fraud in the Notice of Allegations (NOA)? This is a common question that merits answering.
Let's start step by step.
- First, how does the NCAA define "academic fraud"? Answer: it doesn't. It leaves the definition of academic misconduct, including academic fraud (e.g., changing grades, coaches taking tests for athletes, etc.), up to the member institutions.
- If the institution admits that misconduct occurred, the NCAA can allege that such misconduct rose to the level of academic fraud or not. For more on how the NCAA addresses academic misconduct, click on the blue button on the "Athletics Involvement in Fraud" page.
- Note the word "allegation". This is somewhat analogous to a legal complaint. The Plaintiff claims/alleges some sort of injury/damages have occurred to it as a result of some actions by the Defendant. Unlike a legal case, where injury and damages can be quantified at a later date based on the testimony of fact and expert witnesses, the NCAA provides the basis for its allegation in the NOA. The NCAA alleges the infraction has occurred, and the member institution can either a) stipulate to the fact (agree with NCAA that it occurred) in which case there is just the issue of punishment, or b) challenge all or part of the allegation.
- But what if an institution already admits to the fraud before the NOA is issued? Then there is no reason for the NCAA to "allege" something to which the institution has already stipulated. The parties both agree that fraud occurred.
- So did UNC already admit to academic fraud? YES. In its response to SACS, its accrediting body, UNC admitted to longstanding academic fraud. Since the NCAA uses the institution's own definition (in this case UNC's definition of fraud), if UNC says that it committed academic fraud, then that's academic fraud according to the NCAA as well. UNC's SACS response can be found by clicking on the "Carolina Commitment" link on the home page of this site.
- So, since UNC has already admitted to academic fraud, there is no reason for the NCAA to allege it.
- The question then becomes, did this academic fraud constitute impermissible benefits to any student-athletes at UNC? That question is indeed addressed in the NOA, and I won't beat a dead horse here, since it has been discussed ad nauseam (and yet, so many commentators at ESPN still don't seem to grasp it). But that's another story.
- Suffice it to say, that the NCAA and Wainstein both specifically named UNC's football and men's basketball programs (NCAA also named women's basketball) as particular beneficiaries of the decades-long academic fraud scheme at UNC. Both supported their claims with overwhelming documentary evidence, some of which has been publicly released. (Notably, the interviews with Wayne Walden, Boxill, etc. have NOT been released).
Some have also raised the argument that the NCAA does not get involved in the "academic rigor" of specific courses at member schools and has no authority over course content. This is true, but it's also completely irrelevant. Academic rigor is not the issue here, because we are not talking about "easy classes". Accreditation bodies do not put schools on probation for "easy classes", they put them on probation for fraud, as SACS did to UNC. UNC has already admitted that it engaged in academic fraud so the "easy class" argument is entirely devoid of any relevance to this case.
With regard to the NCAA and its responsibility of ensuring student athletes at its institutions actually receive an education and are not merely shepherded through an eligibility curriculum designed to maximize the school's profits, that issue continues to make its way through the US legal system. The NCAA has simultaneously touted its commitment to education while refusing to accept any responsibility for ensuring it. As Gerald Gurney of the Drake Group so aptly put it, the NCAA "is talking out of both sides of their mouth" on this issue. More on this later.
Wouldn't hold your breath on that one. Bobby tends to disappear from the board when asked a pointed question. He'll re-emerge if there's something negative about Duke he can post, or to continue his ongoing crusade to try to win a decisive semantic victory in the battle of whether the courses themselves were an extra benefit.
The humorous part is that Bobby doesn't understand two things. One, whether or not the class itself was an extra benefit is irrelevant and has no bearing on the how ugly this scandal is. Two, for a subset of the classes, the classes themselves were extra benefits. Just not all of them.
When he comes over and argues he reminds me of the guy standing in front of Terrence Hill in the bar fight scene from "My name is Nobody".
Ha, what's funny is what you consider as classes.............something that never existed....like unicorns.
So, I ask a question, you refuse to answer it, then try to turn it around and ask me questions. No, you answer the question that I asked as I asked it first. You're making all these bold statements, yet I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Are you in fact saying those courses are part of the impermissible benefits? You're only making yourself look foolish by twisting and dancing around the question. Just answer it. Then I'll answer yours. If you don't know the answer then just say so, but then also stop pretending you do. I'll wait for your answer...probably for a long time because something tells me once you find the actual answer you want have the courage to admit it.
I'll answer that for you. In fact, those classes were impermissible benefits. Further, it doesn't matter whether they are or not, the NCAA is free to consider them however they like as a benevolent despot (court's words, not mine). The den of academic filth is open to whatever the NCAA chooses to do.
It's clear at this point that UNC has no interest in changing and their fans also want to keep the status quo , that school will continue to cheat no matter what . The culture of hiding the truth is so widespread and pervasive throughout UNC that it simply can't change with the ouster of a few . Even if they got crushed I have no doubt they would concoct more schemes to cheat their opponents . It will take many decades for the lineage of bastards to die off and not pass their corrupt tradition down for a generation with integrity to have a chance . UNC had a chance to come clean and do what's right but they sealed their legacy as cheaters , everybody witnessing this will pass away know that UNC is a dirty school .
They said that about dragons and santa claus too. We know better.
This reluctant investigation may not amount to much with the NCAA but this is a program that for the better part of 4 decades has been above reproach. The self-described epitome of integrity. They consistently signed the very best recruits in the county as they looked down their noses at every other program in America. They figured everyone was eligible to get an education, perform worry-free on the court and invented the system to make it happen.
The fact that very few in the MSM have called them out on any of it is disturbing. The fact that they've acknowledged only the extreme bare minimum as far as regret is also disturbing. The very best anyone on the outside can hope for is the regulator is exposed for the sham organization they have become, in addition to wins forfeited. But I simply wouldn't bet on anything resembling this outcome. The monetary aspect of the status quo is simply the most powerful entity in the discussion.
The fact that very few in the MSM have called them out on any of it is disturbing. The fact that they've acknowledged only the extreme bare minimum as far as regret is also disturbing. The very best anyone on the outside can hope for is the regulator is exposed for the sham organization they have become, in addition to wins forfeited. But I simply wouldn't bet on anything resembling this outcome. The monetary aspect of the status quo is simply the most powerful entity in the discussion.
Classes? What classes? Has to be actual students and teacher there to be a CLASS.