They made a big decision today. I'm interested in where you guys stand, but don't want to do it here. Is there an alternative to the Lounge?
OT: Duke Admin
- Thread starter DukeDenver
- Start date
- Status
Wikipedia site claims Washington Duke had one slave named Caroline bought for $601.00.
May not be long before that becomes an issue.
Lincoln statue was vandalized yesterday in South Chicago.
I would say there is a decent chance the same thing may happened to Duke statue.
While this move is no where as bad as what the Administration did to lacrosse players I still think this is strictly a PC move. I like best what Charles Barkley said " I don't care about any stupid statues."
May not be long before that becomes an issue.
Lincoln statue was vandalized yesterday in South Chicago.
I would say there is a decent chance the same thing may happened to Duke statue.
While this move is no where as bad as what the Administration did to lacrosse players I still think this is strictly a PC move. I like best what Charles Barkley said " I don't care about any stupid statues."
History can't be under valued..... suddenly we're out to erase history, The worse things to happen on this planet shall not be forgotten tell you that
I don't get this whole attack on history, and attack on statues. People want to pin slavery as the main issue of the civil war, therefore all the southern soldiers were racial bigots. I don't condone racism of any kind or hatred toward others, but they are showing the same hatred toward that as they say they are getting. The sitting of the national anthem is a joke because a lot of good men and women died for this nation and our flag and made this the greatest country on earth by far where we enjoy way more freedoms than other countries. The whole issue isnt a race issue, it's a sin issue, and too many hearts filled with hatred and people need to stop blamin others for issues and look at their own lives and turn to God
I guarantee you the majority of people who's hearts are "filled with hatred" already believe in a god so that's not the answer obviously.
My question for the people who think all of the statues should stay up, is this across the board? Would you have been okay with Joe Paterno's statue staying up? Or OJ Simpson if he would have had one?
Yep keep em up they still accomplished awesome things. And when he says it's a sin issue that doesn't mean believe in God.
On the point history happened stop trying to erase it!!!
I wasn't referring to what he said about sin. I was referring to the part where he said people need to turn to God.
As long as people are consistent and say that no statue should ever be torn down for any reason, I am fine with it.
What is the verse from the Bible...something like "Whoever is without sin should cast the first stone".
Who gets to decide what stays up and what is torn down? Congress?
Roosevelt put thousands of American citizens in camps because of their heritage, LBJ was known to use the N word to MLK and even MLK had many failings.
Add Kennedy , Clinton , Andrew Jackson, Andrew Johnson and Woodrow Wilson to the list.
Wish we can stop with this PC madness .
Who gets to decide what stays up and what is torn down? Congress?
Roosevelt put thousands of American citizens in camps because of their heritage, LBJ was known to use the N word to MLK and even MLK had many failings.
Add Kennedy , Clinton , Andrew Jackson, Andrew Johnson and Woodrow Wilson to the list.
Wish we can stop with this PC madness .
Get rid of em.
No history is being erased by a damn statue coming down. Read a book; unless you get your history lessons from reading statues then pick up a book and READ
No history is being erased by a damn statue coming down. Read a book; unless you get your history lessons from reading statues then pick up a book and READ
Taking down statues is not erasing history. The history remains the same. The civil war was fought to perpetuate slavery of blacks. Period. This was slavery based on color. Period. You could not go to anywhere and buy white slaves. Period. Slavery based on color was racism. The justification was that blacks were inherently and perpetually inferior to whites. Period. This is the epitome of racism and ignorance. That is the history. Do the Germans honor the Nazis who were responsible for so many atrocities and lead to the virtual destruction of their own country? Even the great generals who had "nothing to do with" the holocaust? Hardly.
What's amazing is the fact that a guy like Wes Bellamy still has a gov job considering the racist, anti-woman, and anti-gay tweets he posted a few years ago. Add in that he was one of the hate-filled clowns stoking the flames in Charlottesville.
Millennials are the biggest problem with this country. An entire generation that has zero respect, zero mental toughness, and no work ethic. If people ever wonder how we got stuck with Trump as a president this is why.
Keep the statues because if a statue is really affecting you that much your life is pretty easy and you should have bigger problems to worry about.
Keep the statues because if a statue is really affecting you that much your life is pretty easy and you should have bigger problems to worry about.
Removing a statue from goverment property doesn't necessarily equate to erasing history. It might just be adjusting how we view certain historical figures. I don't agree with removing generalized Confederate memorials, but I can see why you'd want to move a figure like Lee away from the most prominent symbol on campus. I personally would rather see a plaque added saying Duke does not glorify this time period in American history, but we'd like to remember events accurately as they were important to shaping this region and school. We can learn much from the mistakes of the past. I think it's smart for Duke as a business to not take chances with public perception, but it's sad to never hear an intelligent, non heated discussion of what these symbols mean and how we might all cope with our troubled history.
No, there are definitely a few statues out there that have no business on public property. Clemson has several that are downright shameful. Lee is pretty complicated. I'm just not sure how to handle someone like that considering the context of the time. I think adding context to his statues might be a good compromise just so it's clear his actions were not always respectful of all humanity. He was a good man for his time, but the thinking of that time was very flawed.
Last edited:
Playing devil's advocate here for a sec, couldn't the same argument be used to keep the statues up?
I think bring em down if the perception might be that Duke is proud of everything Lee stood for. If that's true, then yeah, let's change that perception.
Do you feel the Lee statue is Duke tipping its cap to slavery? Honest question. If people feel this is true, then Duke may be sending the right message by moving the statue.
Broke, because the endowment is forever attached to the Duke name.
Mods, we really need the Lounge back, because this thread will be rightly shut down at some point.
It's fine so far, but everyone in here is sober.
It's fine so far, but everyone in here is sober.
Last edited:
It wasn't millennials who voted as a majority for Donald Trump. It was older white folks. That said, it certainly seems like a description of Trump... zero respect (bashed soldiers, POWs, gold star families, general, former presidents, and so on...not opinion, this is what he did), zero mental toughness, and, given his crazy vacation schedule and nearly-every-weekend golf habit... well, maybe at his age it his hard to maintain a work ethic?
Jnas, I think you are maybe making really silly generalizations about millions of Americans, and sound like you should be telling kids to get off your lawn
I don't care if people take down statues in these sorts of places. I appreciate the history, but they were soldiers of another nation, a traitor nation, and the majority of these statues were erected not post-war, but during Jim Crow, as a bit of an "f you" to northerners and blacks. Hell, Bobby Lee himself said there shouldn't be statues of confederate military personnel, because he felt it would just keep the hate alive. Man might have known something
As long as statues on our battlefields are preserved, I'm generally fine with these going down. Not sure why Bobby Lee would be on a chapel, anyway.
Silly to say we are erasing history. I can read a million books about the ACW and surrounding era... I can watch a million tv shows... in fact, our history is even easier to learn about today than in any other time. Taking down some statues that Nazis are using as rallying points won't change that.
When you start talking of sin, you lose me. I don't think this is an issue of people being bad Christians or whatever. Leave the religious talk to the theologians.
I've also read a few books about what is wrong with this country. The issue doesn't start with L. Strange, right?
Last edited:
The civil war was over slaves is the biggest load of BS ever sold in this country. Also more blacks owned slaves then whites. Ohh and blacks were selling slaves to the big bad white man. Lee wasn't even a slave owner either unlike ole Abe who had slaves in the White House.
Lee was by all accounts an amazing man and the greatest military mind in our country's history.
If you want to take down and get rid of our past you're just plain ignorant and have no understanding of American life or culture. What we seriously need is a history lesson that is unbiased and true. And yes what's wrong with our country has a lot to do with the big "L"
As for trumps work ethic and saying he doesn't work you're straight up a homer
Lee was by all accounts an amazing man and the greatest military mind in our country's history.
If you want to take down and get rid of our past you're just plain ignorant and have no understanding of American life or culture. What we seriously need is a history lesson that is unbiased and true. And yes what's wrong with our country has a lot to do with the big "L"
As for trumps work ethic and saying he doesn't work you're straight up a homer
Uh... a lot of that is untrue.
Slavery was absolutely a key part of the civil war. Why do you think England didn't throw in with the CSA? Because they wouldn't surrender slavery, which was already illegal nearly everywhere else in the world.
Black people did not own more slaves than white people. That's just silly, and feels like "forwarded email" "information."
Of course Lee owned slaves. Some stories about them are rather famous.
Now, some of what you wrote is true... Lee was most assuredly a good man... a good man who felt that references to the confederacy should be removed. Great military mind, too. Shame he didn't accept Lincolns offer... would have saved the lives of a lot of American boys.
And no... the problem is uneducated people whose minds are full of nonsense and are seemingly unable to see things from others perspectives.
Pis, how do you feel about Trumps constant vacationing, especially after he relentlessly attacked Obama over it? Seems at the least stunningly hypocritical, to attack like that when you have no responsibility, and then, when shouldering the mantle of responsibility, you vacation so much, like you attacked your predecessor for?
Last edited:
What vacationing? Like right now where he had to leave because of the remodel? Or where he goes to FL and meets with world leaders? And look up blacks owning slaves I promise you(i didn't believe it when I heard it either) but overall they owned more and one of the biggest slave owners in America was black. Once again the civil war wasn't over slavery it might of played a role(the north had slaves too) but was most definitely not the leading factor.
And look up Lee on slavery you will learn something
Im annoyed that both Obama and Trump played/are playing us particularly from an economic perspective. Both tout(ed) economic rebound by leveraging the unemployment rate (shady calculations), and strong stock market (artificial Fed pumping). We still have increasing record people on gov dependence all while they throw BS info at us.
I am still curious, though, how the supporters of the statue removals feel about Wes Bellamy. Shouldn't he be removed as well?
That's right, a god, not God (Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last)
Pis, he vacations and plays golf constantly, and then strangely denies it.
More black people did not own slaves. Just think about that for second, and you'll realize how silly it sounds. I think you are misunderstanding a statistic about slave ownership, a percentage. Of course some did, and unfortunately a big part of the slave trade in Africa ran through blacks. Not sure what that has to do with taking down the statue of Bobby Lee.
The way I look at it, as a white guy with a lot of interest in the period… I don't care about the statue about Robert E Lee at my school. If I want to see one, I'll visit the statue at Gettysburg, where he sat on traveler watching pickets charge commence. One of my favorites.
More black people did not own slaves. Just think about that for second, and you'll realize how silly it sounds. I think you are misunderstanding a statistic about slave ownership, a percentage. Of course some did, and unfortunately a big part of the slave trade in Africa ran through blacks. Not sure what that has to do with taking down the statue of Bobby Lee.
The way I look at it, as a white guy with a lot of interest in the period… I don't care about the statue about Robert E Lee at my school. If I want to see one, I'll visit the statue at Gettysburg, where he sat on traveler watching pickets charge commence. One of my favorites.
Read this elsewhere ... " Blacks who were never slaves are fighting white people who were never Nazis over a confederate statue erected by Democrats., because Democrats cannot stand their own history anymore
and yet somehow it is Trump's fault?"
I personally do not think statues should come down, sports teams should have to change their names, streets/ dorms need to be renamed and that we should be fined for using the wrong pronoun when addressing someone.
I know I am getting old but all of these changes are not making us a better country.
Six cops were shot yesterday . I believe 2 of them died and yet this country is more concerned about
a statue of a man on a horse. Go figure.
and yet somehow it is Trump's fault?"
I personally do not think statues should come down, sports teams should have to change their names, streets/ dorms need to be renamed and that we should be fined for using the wrong pronoun when addressing someone.
I know I am getting old but all of these changes are not making us a better country.
Six cops were shot yesterday . I believe 2 of them died and yet this country is more concerned about
a statue of a man on a horse. Go figure.
Fair enough point on Trump, I'm not trying to defend him nor did I vote for him nor do I think he's doing a great job. I personally refuse to vote for anyone because there has yet to be a candidate who truly has central views. I'm far from a "get off my lawn" guy. I'm 30 years old. The fact remains this is the stigma of that generation, like it or not. It's that generation that pushed so hard for a guy like Bernie Sanders who would've turned this country into a socialist state. And anyone who knows anything about economics 101 knows socialism has never worked and will never work, esp in a country that's overpopulated and where citizens constantly take advantage of the system. It's that generation along with BLM that has turn this country into a PC state and has taken freedom of speech away from people. Even if you and I don't agree with the words that are spoken, people should be able to say whatever they want, just like BLM can chant "death to police" or "death to whites" without any consequences. I watched that video in Charlottesville, every single person in that video was under the age of 27. So it's not a silly generalization.It wasn't millennials who voted as a majority for Donald Trump. It was older white folks. That said, it certainly seems like a description of Trump... zero respect (bashed soldiers, POWs, gold star families, general, former presidents, and so on...not opinion, this is what he did), zero mental toughness, and, given his crazy vacation schedule and nearly-every-weekend golf habit... well, maybe at his age it his hard to maintain a work ethic?
Jnas, I think you are maybe making really silly generalizations about millions of Americans, and sound like you should be telling kids to get off your lawn
I don't care if people take down statues in these sorts of places. I appreciate the history, but they were soldiers of another nation, a traitor nation, and the majority of these statues were erected not post-war, but during Jim Crow, as a bit of an "f you" to northerners and blacks. Hell, Bobby Lee himself said there shouldn't be statues of confederate military personnel, because he felt it would just keep the hate alive. Man might have known something
As long as statues on our battlefields are preserved, I'm generally fine with these going down. Not sure why Bobby Lee would be on a chapel, anyway.
Silly to say we are erasing history. I can read a million books about the ACW and surrounding era... I can watch a million tv shows... in fact, our history is even easier to learn about today than in any other time. Taking down some statues that Nazis are using as rallying points won't change that.
When you start talking of sin, you lose me. I don't think this is an issue of people being bad Christians or whatever. Leave the religious talk to the theologians.
I've also read a few books about what is wrong with this country. The issue doesn't start with L. Strange, right?
PS - since you want to comment so much on Trumps vacation time, I hope you were equally as critical of Obama who took more vacation time then any president in history.
Again, I respect your point of view on the statues and you're entitled to your opinion. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to Millennials.
Just a side note: Millennials were raised by the Boomers and Gen X-ers. The reason they are so sensitive on the whole is because of helicopter parenting and the fact that our society has been so wealthy all this time. It's happened before during times of great wealth, and it will happen again. There's really no avoiding it. The best thing to do is recognize these differences and work around them. They aren't going away.
I'm a proud South Carolinian. Please read below. Slavery and the plantation way of life was a big, big part of why SC went to war. It wasn't only to retain slaves, but that's not really the point if we're talking about being respectful of people in the modern world.
from The Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union:
"We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.
This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety."
The "beliefs" being referred to in that last line are clearly ones that are OK with having slaves. That simply can't be argued against. This theme runs through this document and is even more evident in the documents drafted by other southern states. I would argue that this doesn't mean the people of the old South were all evil. I would say instead they were looking at humanity in a very flawed and tragic way. This is the message I'll give my kids, not the view that the South was just defending its economy, because that's leaving out too much context.
Our basketball team is freaking loaded this year! Why are we gonna ruin the mood with politics
There's no other forum on DI to discuss this stuff. I'll take the blame. I just figured if I didn't start the thread, someone else would have, and it would've started off much worse than this one did.
That's not a "vacation" as for the economy 1 million jobs have been created since Jan 20th so...
This isn't about trump Obama crap tho.
28% of free blacks in America owned slaves which is a bigger portion than free white people so technically I'm right ALSO that's just in the USA throughout Africa black people owned slaves and they outnumbered slaves in America so rethink your claim before you spout stuff.
This isn't about trump Obama crap tho.
28% of free blacks in America owned slaves which is a bigger portion than free white people so technically I'm right ALSO that's just in the USA throughout Africa black people owned slaves and they outnumbered slaves in America so rethink your claim before you spout stuff.
- Status