OT: Duke Admin

[Dattier]

Honest question. Does anyone truly believe that by removing statues, our country will come together and solve issues?

This is nothing but a tactic being used by people who want us to remain divided because they know that in general, we are all blind sheep. The groups demanding these statues be removed do not have anyone's best interests in mind. They are exploiting a volatile situation to further their own agenda and until we stop being dumbasses and jumping on every social bandwagon that passes us by, it will only get worse.

Going on to a "nothing but" statement reveals your question to be rhetorical, not one where you want an actual answer.

Statues represent things. That's what they do. Putting them up represents something. Taking them down represents something. They're not tumors, where their removal serves an obvious, literal, universally agreed upon purpose. They're symbolic.

Confederate statues went up during two big historical spurts. The first was during the enactment of Jim Crow laws all over the South, in the early years of the 20th Century. The next was during the Civil Rights Era of the 1960s. That timing heavily implies their role was a means of reinforcing White supremacy behind a thin veneer of some amorphous "heritage." THAT is divisive. Taking them down doesn't automatically solve everything, but their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together. If your definition of "divisive" means you no longer get your way uncontested and unyielding, your definition of "unity" is flawed to begin with.

 

[hart2chesson]

Sports although there is plenty of controversy in this area per race, divisiveness, etc has also served as a good melting pot of diversity for positive achievement. Look how Coach K has brought various cultures together for about 4 decades.

When I was just a kid (yes I cam remember that far back), I watched "Brian's Song," and will never forget the Sayers/Piccolo close relationship during a time when forced busing was occurring. What a great lesson for all of us, that such bonds are possible:

As "Pic" was dying of cancer Sayers told his teammates, "I Love Brian Piccolo."

#AllLivesMatter

 

[TheDude1]

The nice thing is, I think all reasonable people believe all lives matter, including just about everyone in this thread

 

[Dattier]

Sports although there is plenty of controversy in this area per race, divisiveness, etc has also served as a good melting pot of diversity for positive achievement. Look how Coach K has brought various cultures together for about 4 decades.

When I was just a kid (yes I cam remember that far back), I watched "Brian's Song," and will never forget the Sayers/Piccolo close relationship during a time when forced busing was occurring. What a great lesson for all of us, that such bonds are possible:

As "Pic" was dying of cancer Sayers told his teammates, "I Love Brian Piccolo."

#AllLivesMatter

You had a "like" in the bag until that hashtag. In a vacuum, there's nothing controversial about saying all lives matter. As a response to the very real, very legitimate concern that some lives have been forgotten, it represents a refusal to acknowledge those lives and the need for focus on those areas where our American ideals of equality have fallen short.

If you served dinner to everyone at the table, then one person held up their empty plate and said, "Hey, what about me? You forgot me. Don't I matter?" would you respond w/ "Everyone matters," then proceed to eat your own food, or would you fill their plate?

 

[Dattier]

The nice thing is, I think all reasonable people believe all lives matter, including just about everyone in this thread

Philosophically, yes. But when that's a misguided response to a misunderstanding of BLM, it's an unwillingness to put in the work to make that the reality in society.

 

[TheDude1]

Philosophically, yes. But when that's a misguided response to a misunderstanding of BLM, it's an unwillingness to put in the work to make that the reality in society.

Agreed completely.

 

[hart2chesson]

You had a "like" in the bag until that hashtag. In a vacuum, there's nothing controversial about saying all lives matter. As a response to the very real, very legitimate concern that some lives have been forgotten, it represents a refusal to acknowledge those lives and the need for focus on those areas where our American ideals of equality have fallen short.

If you served dinner to everyone at the table, then one person held up their empty plate and said, "Hey, what about me? You forgot me. Don't I matter?" would you respond w/ "Everyone matters," then proceed to eat your own food, or would you fill their plate?

My minister who has a diverse culture among his flock, told us "All Lives Matter." Both himself and I would fill up the individual's plate FIRST.

Btw, not getting a like from you is breaking my heart datt....

OFC

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

Will Margaret Sanger and planned parenthood get attacked next? They should!

 

[Dattier]

My minister who has a diverse culture among his flock, told us "All Lives Matter." Both himself and I would fill up the individual's plate FIRST.

Btw, not getting a like from you is breaking my heart datt....

OFC

It wasn't a jab, hart. Sorry you took it that way.

The devil is always in the details, but sometimes the discussion beyond a 3-word slogan is where we find hidden accord. That you acknowledge the need to fill the individual's plate -- and fill it first -- is a positive. We're at a point in history where that plate -- that promise of all lives mattering -- has not moved from philosophy into reality. That has to be achieved before all lives are shown -- not just said -- to matter.

 

[hart2chesson]

It wasn't a jab, hart. Sorry you took it that way.

The devil is always in the details, but sometimes the discussion beyond a 3-word slogan is where we find hidden accord. That you acknowledge the need to fill the individual's plate -- and fill it first -- is a positive. We're at a point in history where that plate -- that promise of all lives mattering -- has not moved from philosophy into reality. That has to be achieved before all lives are shown -- not just said -- to matter.

We can definitely have a civil discussion. When I say ALL LIVES MATTER in my mind's eye it says ANTI- SUPREMACY. WLM or BLM, etc arent AS healthy for us as whole, and imply more divisiveness and negativity. JMO

OFC

 

[Dattier]

Will Margaret Sanger and planned parenthood get attacked next? They should!

Why?

 

[Dattier]

We can definitely have a civil discussion. When I say ALL LIVES MATTER in my mind's eye it says ANTI- SUPREMACY. WLM or BLM, etc arent AS healthy for us as whole, and imply more divisiveness and negativity. JMO

OFC

I think we agree on what ought to be the case. We don't agree on messaging. Remaining to be seen are our opinions on how things stand now.

Let me try this part again... At the BLM website, they have clarified that when they say "Black lives matter," what they mean is that "Black lives matter, too," the implication being that there are doubts as to whether that's true. If you were the parent of many kids and one of them came to you in a moment of sincere insecurity and asked sincerely if you loved them, would you say, "Well, I love all of my kids," or would you say, "Of course, honey," and give them a hug of reassurance?

 

[hart2chesson]

I think we agree on what ought to be the case. We don't agree on messaging. Remaining to be seen are our opinions on how things stand now.

Let me try this part again... At the BLM website, they have clarified that when they say "Black lives matter," what they mean is that "Black lives matter, too," the implication being that there are doubts as to whether that's true. If you were the parent of many kids and one of them came to you in a moment of sincere insecurity and asked sincerely if you loved them, would you say, "Well, I love all of my kids," or would you say, "Of course, honey," and give them a hug of reassurance?

I think most parents would provide the "hug of reassurance" in a home setting.Good point. However I simply think by inserting EITHER RACE into a BLM or a WLM context in the nation as a whole is dicey and a mistake. Its certainly a slippery slope when extremists meet head-on. OFC

 

[TheDude1]

Hart, I think that is dangerous, because it seems to me to deny the unique, race-relate challenges black Americans have faced and continue to face in order to make certain people (overwhelmingly people who socially have been at the top of the power "food chain") feel more comfortable.

I don't get why instead we don't just get exactly what Black Live Matter has said is their mission from the start, some bad apples notwithstanding; We are committed to practicing empathy; we engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts, we are committed to embodying and practicing justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another, and we are committed to acknowledging, respecting and celebrating difference(s) and commonalities. That seems more reflective of the reality of the lives of many Americans and therefore more productive. However, some people just cannot seem to wrap their head around that idea, and instead cling to this illogical idea (and I assure you, it is illogical) that Black Lives Matter = Other Lives Don't, or the untrue idea that Black Lives Matter is some race-hating organization closer to the KKK than to the Civil Rights Movement.

I have a hard time making changes for the uninformed or unrealistically offended or, as you said, extremeists (not speaking of you, of course.). In our past our great changes come with struggle, and yes, often with the groups in charge feeling set upon and offended. So be it; history has shown that women gaining the right to vote and blacks gaining the right to vote and the destruction of segregation have been worth it.

 

[hart2chesson]

Hart, I think that is dangerous, because it seems to me to deny the unique, race-relate challenges black Americans have faced and continue to face in order to make certain people (overwhelmingly people who socially have been at the top of the power "food chain") feel more comfortable.

I don't get why instead we don't just get exactly what Black Live Matter has said is their mission from the start, some bad apples notwithstanding; We are committed to practicing empathy; we engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts, we are committed to embodying and practicing justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another, and we are committed to acknowledging, respecting and celebrating difference(s) and commonalities. That seems more reflective of the reality of the lives of many Americans and therefore more productive. However, some people just cannot seem to wrap their head around that idea, and instead cling to this illogical idea (and I assure you, it is illogical) that Black Lives Matter = Other Lives Don't, or the untrue idea that Black Lives Matter is some race-hating organization closer to the KKK than to the Civil Rights Movement.

I have a hard time making changes for the uninformed or unrealistically offended or, as you said, extremeists (not speaking of you, of course.). In our past our great changes come with struggle, and yes, often with the groups in charge feeling set upon and offended. So be it; history has shown that women gaining the right to vote and blacks gaining the right to vote and the destruction of segregation have been worth it.

Dude you are entitled to your opinion....When I say All Lives Matter I am referring just as much to the innocent youngster shot on the streets of Chicago caught in crossfire of gang violence, as the innocent victim falsely accused of a crime elsewhere. JMO, no sermon here...OFC

 

[Mac9192]

Dude you are entitled to your opinion....When I say All Lives Matter I am referring just as much to the innocent youngster shot on the streets of Chicago caught in crossfire of gang violence, as the innocent victim falsely accused of a crime elsewhere. JMO, no sermon here...OFC

I've been reading this thread and there's a lot of educated and well informed guys weighing in. I have not wanted to for obvious reasons. It's a lot similar to Duke/Carolina in that views won't be changed.
I'm a white guy from a small town, so I feel blessed by the life I've had. I try to respect everyone, yet the truth is I don't know what it's like to be raised in either the inner city or even poor rural area. I'm fortunate to have had a mom that stayed home and a dad that worked hard for his family and put me and my brothers back in line if we got out. My two cents are the decay of the family and our politicians. I'm not knocking a single parent, but it's proven from the stats I've seen that a dad in the home is huge, and kids need both. The problem with the politicians is we keep electing the same people and getting the same results. That's the definition of insanity. We can't depend on them, and regardless of color, most all are more interested in their own agenda.
Something has to change, I don't know the answers, but it is my opinion that until we quit keeping score, and having someone to blame for the situation we are in, we will keep getting the same results we have for the last few decades.

 

[hart2chesson]

I've been reading this thread and there's a lot of educated and well informed guys weighing in. I have not wanted to for obvious reasons. It's a lot similar to Duke/Carolina in that views won't be changed.
I'm a white guy from a small town, so I feel blessed by the life I've had. I try to respect everyone, yet the truth is I don't know what it's like to be raised in either the inner city or even poor rural area. I'm fortunate to have had a mom that stayed home and a dad that worked hard for his family and put me and my brothers back in line if we got out. My two cents are the decay of the family and our politicians. I'm not knocking a single parent, but it's proven from the stats I've seen that a dad in the home is huge, and kids need both. The problem with the politicians is we keep electing the same people and getting the same results. That's the definition of insanity. We can't depend on them, and regardless of color, most all are more interested in their own agenda.
Something has to change, I don't know the answers, but it is my opinion that until we quit keeping score, and having someone to blame for the situation we are in, we will keep getting the same results we have for the last few decades.

"Quit keeping score" is well said...OFC

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

Why?

Google Margaret Sanger and why she developed planned parenthood

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

My question was not rhetorical. Does anyone truly believe that taking these statues down brings us together?

I ask this without sharing my opinion on whether or not they should or shouldn't be removed. My earlier post was simply my opinion on what is going on in this country right now and shouldn't have taken anything away from my question. Maybe I should have isolated the two.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

This woman is pretty annoying. But she is correct IMO.

 

[hart2chesson]

My question was not rhetorical. Does anyone truly believe that taking these statues down brings us together?

My earlier post was simply my opinion on what is going on in this country right now and shouldn't have taken anything away from my question. /QUOTE]

No worries on this end!!! OFC

 

[df64]

Yes, I think taking the statues down would matter to many people. It would matter to me, a white Northerner. It would be nice to know that everyone could recognize the concept that if the cause was bad/unjust, the war was bad. I am assuming that it would matter to many blacks. I also think it could/should be important to many white southerners, especially those who want them to stay up. Talk about keeping score. I can't count the times I hear "get over it" from whites in regard to blacks complaining about deep rooted social issues in our country that adversely affect them. To me, that phrase would be much better used for southerners holding on to the Confederacy and many of the falsehoods that have been perpetuated for a hundred and fifty years. Isn't the "angry white" male not "getting over it" (certainly not limited to southerners) and blaming minorities, welfare, the government for their lack of prospects." I find it very ironic that the breeding ground for these hate groups is a population that shares so many of the qualities that they claim they despise in "minorities on welfare." I know that last section was a little negative. Fine. All I ask is that if you don't like it, don't do it to others. Don't stand by while somebody else does it to others. That is the point I am trying to make. Not to disparage anyone.

I feel for everyone in this country who is suffering. But there is a difference between suffering from random, temporary, or logistical reasons and reasons that were man made, long standing, supported by our government, and based on race. That is why BLM is different than ALM.

 

[GAAP_rivals]

This woman is pretty annoying. But she is correct IMO.

Thanks for sharing. Definitely worth 5 minutes.

 

[SoCal_Dukie3]

Just gonna leave this here regarding BLM and the false narrative:

 

[SoCal_Dukie3]

I've been reading this thread and there's a lot of educated and well informed guys weighing in. I have not wanted to for obvious reasons. It's a lot similar to Duke/Carolina in that views won't be changed.
I'm a white guy from a small town, so I feel blessed by the life I've had. I try to respect everyone, yet the truth is I don't know what it's like to be raised in either the inner city or even poor rural area. I'm fortunate to have had a mom that stayed home and a dad that worked hard for his family and put me and my brothers back in line if we got out. My two cents are the decay of the family and our politicians. I'm not knocking a single parent, but it's proven from the stats I've seen that a dad in the home is huge, and kids need both. The problem with the politicians is we keep electing the same people and getting the same results. That's the definition of insanity. We can't depend on them, and regardless of color, most all are more interested in their own agenda.
Something has to change, I don't know the answers, but it is my opinion that until we quit keeping score, and having someone to blame for the situation we are in, we will keep getting the same results we have for the last few decades.

Bravo sir, bravo!

 

[TheDude1]

Dude you are entitled to your opinion....When I say All Lives Matter I am referring just as much to the innocent youngster shot on the streets of Chicago caught in crossfire of gang violence, as the innocent victim falsely accused of a crime elsewhere. JMO, no sermon here...OFC

No no, hart, didn't think you were preaching, no worries; you've always stuck me as a good dude. Sure, the life's of innocent youngsters matter, as do the lives of all people. But that's something we hope to assume. In the legal system, it hasn't been that way for black Americans, which is why we point it out. That's all

I've been reading this thread and there's a lot of educated and well informed guys weighing in. I have not wanted to for obvious reasons. It's a lot similar to Duke/Carolina in that views won't be changed.
I'm a white guy from a small town, so I feel blessed by the life I've had. I try to respect everyone, yet the truth is I don't know what it's like to be raised in either the inner city or even poor rural area. I'm fortunate to have had a mom that stayed home and a dad that worked hard for his family and put me and my brothers back in line if we got out. My two cents are the decay of the family and our politicians. I'm not knocking a single parent, but it's proven from the stats I've seen that a dad in the home is huge, and kids need both. The problem with the politicians is we keep electing the same people and getting the same results. That's the definition of insanity. We can't depend on them, and regardless of color, most all are more interested in their own agenda.
Something has to change, I don't know the answers, but it is my opinion that until we quit keeping score, and having someone to blame for the situation we are in, we will keep getting the same results we have for the last few decades.

Mac, I was with you until nearly the end.

I don't think our politicians are as bad as you, and many Americans, think. I DO think that some of the problems we expect them to solve are too big for anyone to solve, and I do think some of them get corrupted by the system. But I've met some politicians I've greatly admired.

And it isn't about keeping score, or having someone to blame. That's very simplified and doesn't accurately represent anything I've ever heard from anyone on the "left." Rather, it's about changing systems that still treat Americans differently based on their skin color. It is very, very, very easy to say "Just stop complaining! Stop blaming other people!" when you are not in that situation, and honestly I feel that it is a bit dismissive of what millions of African Americans have been speaking out about for decades.

Google Margaret Sanger and why she developed planned parenthood

How about this; why don't you fill me in on why Planned Parenthood is so bad?

Btw, I googled this... I didn't know this was a current talking point of right wing blogs and websites.

My question was not rhetorical. Does anyone truly believe that taking these statues down brings us together?

I ask this without sharing my opinion on whether or not they should or shouldn't be removed. My earlier post was simply my opinion on what is going on in this country right now and shouldn't have taken anything away from my question. Maybe I should have isolated the two.

Letsgo, I am not sure that taking down statues is about bringing us together as much as it is no longer honoring something that brings such pain to so many Americans, no? I mean, I guess you could argue it brings us together because it allows black Americans to feel like people are no longer honoring the people who enslaved their families and fought to enslave them longer, and I would think doing that would help bring about peace.

Not every act is about bringing us together. When the Suffragettes fought to get the vote, was that about "bringing us together"...? I'd argue no; it was about righting a wrong and bringing justice to a portion of Americans, justice that was being taken away by another portion of Americans.

While taking down statues might increase conflict and hurt feelings in the short run, in the long run I would think it is better, overall, for the majority of Americans. I don't see anyone getting hurt by the statues coming down, that's for sure... and a lot of Americans do feel uncomfortable having these statues around, especially in places like government land.

Again, while nobody has acknowledged this... look at what Lee himself said about these statues. He felt they did nothing but keep the festering wounds of war open. Wouldn't he know?




Btw, good job all around at keeping this one civil, AGAIN. Outside of a few silly political jabs it has stayed pretty even keeled and open. Good job, us! I wonder what other college basketball forums could do this? My guess is not many.

 

[DukeDenver]

This thread has restored my faith in huma- well, Duke fans, at least. Let's go Devils!

 

[TheDude1]

Btw, good job all around at keeping this one civil, AGAIN. Outside of a few silly political jabs it has stayed pretty even keeled and open. Good job, us! I wonder what other college basketball forums could do this? My guess is not many.

Maybe I should have made this it's OWN post, so people don't feel like they are liking something that politically they don't agree with?

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

I didn't say I was for or against planned parenthood

 

[SwatX1]

Maybe I should have made this it's OWN post, so people don't feel like they are liking something that politically they don't agree with?

I know two that couldn't!!

 

[Dattier]

Just gonna leave this here regarding BLM and the false narrative:

All I saw in that was a fast talker w/ a good vocabulary who has little understanding or empathy for others' lives.

Why don't you do the heavy lifting and provide context and application, rather than "just leave this here"?

 

[Dattier]

When I say All Lives Matter I am referring just as much to the innocent youngster shot on the streets of Chicago caught in crossfire of gang violence, as the innocent victim falsely accused of a crime elsewhere.

If you say it in response to "Black lives matter," you're missing the point and hindering progress.

 

[Dattier]

My question was not rhetorical. Does anyone truly believe that taking these statues down brings us together?

You provided your own answer. That's rhetorical: "This is nothing but a tactic being used by people who want us to remain divided because they know that in general, we are all blind sheep."

 

[hart2chesson]

If you say it in response to "Black lives matter," you're missing the point and hindering progress.

I just said #AllLivesMatter in the context of a response to ANY message which suggests any supremacy of any race or extremist group over another. There are too many groups on either side pulling us apart as a nation IMO.I appreciate your thoughts though, and think you bring up some really good points.

OFC

 

[Mac9192]

No no, hart, didn't think you were preaching, no worries; you've always stuck me as a good dude. Sure, the life's of innocent youngsters matter, as do the lives of all people. But that's something we hope to assume. In the legal system, it hasn't been that way for black Americans, which is why we point it out. That's all



Mac, I was with you until nearly the end.

I don't think our politicians are as bad as you, and many Americans, think. I DO think that some of the problems we expect them to solve are too big for anyone to solve, and I do think some of them get corrupted by the system. But I've met some politicians I've greatly admired.

And it isn't about keeping score, or having someone to blame. That's very simplified and doesn't accurately represent anything I've ever heard from anyone on the "left." Rather, it's about changing systems that still treat Americans differently based on their skin color. It is very, very, very easy to say "Just stop complaining! Stop blaming other people!" when you are not in that situation, and honestly I feel that it is a bit dismissive of what millions of African Americans have been speaking out about for decades.



How about this; why don't you fill me in on why Planned Parenthood is so bad?

Btw, I googled this... I didn't know this was a current talking point of right wing blogs and websites.



Letsgo, I am not sure that taking down statues is about bringing us together as much as it is no longer honoring something that brings such pain to so many Americans, no? I mean, I guess you could argue it brings us together because it allows black Americans to feel like people are no longer honoring the people who enslaved their families and fought to enslave them longer, and I would think doing that would help bring about peace.

Not every act is about bringing us together. When the Suffragettes fought to get the vote, was that about "bringing us together"...? I'd argue no; it was about righting a wrong and bringing justice to a portion of Americans, justice that was being taken away by another portion of Americans.

While taking down statues might increase conflict and hurt feelings in the short run, in the long run I would think it is better, overall, for the majority of Americans. I don't see anyone getting hurt by the statues coming down, that's for sure... and a lot of Americans do feel uncomfortable having these statues around, especially in places like government land.

Again, while nobody has acknowledged this... look at what Lee himself said about these statues. He felt they did nothing but keep the festering wounds of war open. Wouldn't he know?




Btw, good job all around at keeping this one civil, AGAIN. Outside of a few silly political jabs it has stayed pretty even keeled and open. Good job, us! I wonder what other college basketball forums could do this? My guess is not many.

I'm only going to respond to the part about politicians. Sure some are probably good people, and some initially want to do good things. The muck up there engulfs any good one. Too many though say what they say to get VOTES, and a way to do that is blame others for the situation that the people they represent live in, and boast that they will make their lives better. Do they though? They pander to their base, are really slick talkers, and say what they do to get reelected. The start to fixing D.C. Is term limits.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

You provided your own answer. That's rhetorical: "This is nothing but a tactic being used by people who want us to remain divided because they know that in general, we are all blind sheep."

Do you truly believe that by removing statues, we are bringing everyone together?

 

[Dattier]

I just said #AllLivesMatter in the context of a response to ANY message which suggests any supremacy of any race or extremist group over another.

"Black lives matter" is not such a message.

 

[Dattier]

Do you truly believe that by removing statues, we are bringing everyone together?

Taking them down doesn't automatically solve everything, but their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together.

 

[TheDude1]

I'm only going to respond to the part about politicians. Sure some are probably good people, and some initially want to do good things. The muck up there engulfs any good one. Too many though say what they say to get VOTES, and a way to do that is blame others for the situation that the people they represent live in, and boast that they will make their lives better. Do they though? They pander to their base, are really slick talkers, and say what they do to get reelected. The start to fixing D.C. Is term limits.

I don't disagree, unfortunately. I know it is getting a bit into the technical issues of politics, but gerrymandering isn't helping. If you ever want to get really sick, read a bit about how our politicians have to fund raise... it is insane.

Here, give this a watch... funny, because it is John Oliver, but also well researched and thoughtful, which his stuff tends to be. All about the day to day fundraising and politicking that our politicians have to do.

http://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-congressional-fundraising-443675

"Black lives matter" is not such a message.

This. And that's what everyone needs to understand. Trust me, I don't think Dat and I are rallying against our own race mattering... I am WAY too selfish and self centered to do that

 

[hart2chesson]

Good debate gentlemen...I dont think we've changed the world , but its been interesting and civil.

OFC