OT: Duke Admin

[TheDude1]

Good debate gentlemen...I dont think we've changed the world , but its been interesting and civil.

OFC

For sure!

If we had to summarize...?

Seems everyone here doesn't like racism. That's a plus

Some feel that we still need active change. Others don't. I think that is sort of it?

Some feel the removal of confederate army statues makes things worse. Others think that it makes things better, although the initial "growing pains" might be there.

Some see Black Lives Matter as a bad group that does damage and highlights difference. Others see it as a genuine and useful reaction to systemic unfairness.

 

[SoCal_Dukie3]

Just a bit more on the BLM agenda....one area I disagree here is that Eric Garner was murdered. I've seen the videos and he wasn't putting up much of a fight, and the police were wrong.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Taking them down doesn't automatically solve everything, but their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together.

But what does it solve? You acknowledge that it won't solve everything, I have a hard time believing it will solve anything and that it would be nothing more than a useless social win for the left. They effect nobody and anybody who says they effect them is either too focused on something to be outraged about or is simply lying. Half the people who show up to protest the statues probably had to look up on their GPS where the statues were to begin with.

But none of this really affects me, I will just sit back and wait to see what the left tells us we need to protest next and see if it is something that actually plays a role in every day life. It's just a shame that so many people play puppets to these situations because it is driving us further apart and is going to lead to more people dying. And no matter what cnn tells you, they're not dying for a cause.

 

[Dattier]

But what does it solve?

3rd time: "...their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together."
What are you looking for? A succinct answer about how removing statues will result in a specific, neat, clean fix of centuries-old problems?

I have a hard time believing it will solve anything and that it would be nothing more than a useless social win for the left. They effect nobody and anybody who says they effect them is either too focused on something to be outraged about or is simply lying...But none of this really affects me...

None of it affects you... none of it affects anybody, apparently, and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves or lying, one. Looks like you have a pretty easy time believing it will solve nothing.
So what part of your question isn't rhetorical again? You had the only answer you'd accept chambered.

I will just sit back...

"Out." You'll just sit out.

 

[Dattier]

Just a bit more on the BLM agenda....one area I disagree here is that Eric Garner was murdered. I've seen the videos and he wasn't putting up much of a fight, and the police were wrong.

He does the same thing you do: Ask about a complicated, systemic thing whose very resilience has to do with flying under the radar, then insist on tangible facts.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

3rd time: "...their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together."
What are you looking for? A succinct answer about how removing statues will result in a specific, neat, clean fix of centuries-old problems?


None of it affects you... none of it affects anybody, apparently, and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves or lying, one. Looks like you have a pretty easy time believing it will solve nothing.
So what part of your question isn't rhetorical again? You had the only answer you'd accept chambered.


"Out." You'll just sit out.

Typical dat. Night night.

 

[TheDude1]

Sorry Letsgo, I agree with dat. We are specifically telling you it effects people, we are explaining how it will effect people, we are literally quoting Robert E Lee himself about how it effects people, the actions of thousands tell you that it effects them too... but you are just writing them all off as weak minded puppets or liars and saying it doesn't effect YOU, so that's it. That's not it, and that's a very shallow and self centered way of looking at it, something you are able to do because you've never faced discrimination and then walked past your government buildings to see statues to the guys who enslaved your people being hero-worshipped by the people who discriminate against you.

Americans of all races really need to have more relationships with people of other colors, backgrounds, and experiences.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Sorry Letsgo, I agree with dat. We are specifically telling you it effects people, we are explaining how it will effect people, we are literally quoting Robert E Lee himself about how it effects people, the actions of thousands tell you that it effects them too... but you are just writing them all off as weak minded puppets or liars and saying it doesn't effect YOU, so that's it. That's not it, and that's a very shallow and self centered way of looking at it, something you are able to do because you've never faced discrimination and then walked past your government buildings to see statues to the guys who enslaved your people being hero-worshipped by the people who discriminate against you.

Americans of all races really need to have more relationships with people of other colors, backgrounds, and experiences.

Well. I have relationships with people of all colors and backgrounds. Hard for you to belive, I know. I face discrimination every day due to my job. I also make a positive impact on people of all colors and backgrounds with real every day problems. It's pretty dumb for you to assume that I am sheltered or removed from people of different races just because I don't think a statue affects anyone in a real way. White liberals are the driving force here. I watched a segment on cnn yesterday where there was a black man explaining why these statues play no role in how he lives his life or how he raises his family and two white liberals were acting disgusted and told him he doesn't speak for other black people. As if THEY do. Haha. And yes, when people travel from hundreds of miles away to protest something they never even knew existed, they are puppets. If they are affected by a statue, they are doing life wrong. And I am including the people who show up to protest the removal as well. If it were all locals, it'd be different, but these are people who want nothing but to disrupt peace and further the divide and they travel wherever there is conflict.

 

[TheDude1]

I disagree; it is not all about white liberals; it is about a lot of people of different colors not thinking they should be up. And even if it IS about white liberals, who cares? Can they not have opinions? I'm a white liberal, and I have an opinion about it.

In the end, this is about black Americans. It just is.

How many discussions have you had with black friends about Black Lives Matter? Please be honest. I'm not talking random CNN or Fox segments, or forwarded email internet clips. How many serious discussions have you had about this with black friends?

I know I have had many. MANY. And every single time it comes down to black men saying "**** man, the system is a mess. We are terrified when we get pulled over or otherwise interact with cops. We never want to get into the legal system, because we know we'll be doomed. We deal with discrimination every day, and we are blown away by these white folks who say it isn't true and say that everything is fine, and that we are just complaining and should just get along. They don't is a thing." I've heard this from countless people over my 42 years. I am not sure how your experience somehow invalidates that, and I would guess I have far more experience about this than you. (And I hope you don't get defensive about that... one of us has had more experience and one less, logic dictates, and given my background I'm willing to guess I have more.)

What meaningful discrimination do you face? I'd love to know more. I've lived and worked with a lot of races in a lot of different areas, including living in places like nearly all black housing in North Carolina and working in all black schools in East Harlem, and I honestly cannot think of ever facing any real discrimination. Please let me know your experience... where do you work, and what do you face?

And so what if people travel to protest?

At the end of the day, one group in Charlottesville was protesting to retain statues of military leaders that they they worship because of what they represent; white supremacy over other races. This group was made up of neo Nazis and white supremacists.

The other group showed up only because the first showed up, and protested these symbols, and the very idea that whites are somehow superior to all other races. This group was made up of Americans of many different races and backgrounds.

I have no problem with that second group showing up. Sorry, the idea that all people were created equal is important to me, and I like that fellow Americans are willing to spend their time proclaiming and defending that.

I'd be curious to see what you would have said about the civil rights movement, or the women's lib movement. I think you likely would take this same approach.

 

[TheDude1]

Btw, why is nobody addressing what Lee himself said? I find this a bit strange. I am left to assume it is hard to argue that Lee wouldn't know what he was talking about, and he was on the "no statues" side.

 

[hart2chesson]

Well. I have relationships with people of all colors and backgrounds. Hard for you to belive, I know. I face discrimination every day due to my job. I also make a positive impact on people of all colors and backgrounds with real every day problems. It's pretty dumb for you to assume that I am sheltered or removed from people of different races just because I don't think a statue affects anyone in a real way. White liberals are the driving force here. I watched a segment on cnn yesterday where there was a black man explaining why these statues play no role in how he lives his life or how he raises his family and two white liberals were acting disgusted and told him he doesn't speak for other black people. As if THEY do. Haha. And yes, when people travel from hundreds of miles away to protest something they never even knew existed, they are puppets. If they are affected by a statue, they are doing life wrong. And I am including the people who show up to protest the removal as well. If it were all locals, it'd be different, but these are people who want nothing but to disrupt peace and further the divide and they travel wherever there is conflict.

THIS....

OFC

 

[hart2chesson]

I believe so much what Coach K says in a basketball context can be and should be applied to everyday life:
"NEXT PLAY."

OFC

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

I disagree; it is not all about white liberals; it is about a lot of people of different colors not thinking they should be up. And even if it IS about white liberals, who cares? Can they not have opinions? I'm a white liberal, and I have an opinion about it.

In the end, this is about black Americans. It just is.

How many discussions have you had with black friends about Black Lives Matter? Please be honest. I'm not talking random CNN or Fox segments, or forwarded email internet clips. How many serious discussions have you had about this with black friends?

I know I have had many. MANY. And every single time it comes down to black men saying "**** man, the system is a mess. We are terrified when we get pulled over or otherwise interact with cops. We never want to get into the legal system, because we know we'll be doomed. We deal with discrimination every day, and we are blown away by these white folks who say it isn't true and say that everything is fine, and that we are just complaining and should just get along. They don't is a thing." I've heard this from countless people over my 42 years. I am not sure how your experience somehow invalidates that, and I would guess I have far more experience about this than you. (And I hope you don't get defensive about that... one of us has had more experience and one less, logic dictates, and given my background I'm willing to guess I have more.)

What meaningful discrimination do you face? I'd love to know more. I've lived and worked with a lot of races in a lot of different areas, including living in places like nearly all black housing in North Carolina and working in all black schools in East Harlem, and I honestly cannot think of ever facing any real discrimination. Please let me know your experience... where do you work, and what do you face?

And so what if people travel to protest?

At the end of the day, one group in Charlottesville was protesting to retain statues of military leaders that they they worship because of what they represent; white supremacy over other races. This group was made up of neo Nazis and white supremacists.

The other group showed up only because the first showed up, and protested these symbols, and the very idea that whites are somehow superior to all other races. This group was made up of Americans of many different races and backgrounds.

I have no problem with that second group showing up. Sorry, the idea that all people were created equal is important to me, and I like that fellow Americans are willing to spend their time proclaiming and defending that.

I'd be curious to see what you would have said about the civil rights movement, or the women's lib movement. I think you likely would take this same approach.

I don't have time to address the whole post here. But I will be able to after 5 if the thread is still alive.

But I never said it was all about white liberals. Just that they were the driving force. I also am not saying that black people are not truly offended by the statues, just that if it affects their lives, they are doing life wrong. As far as meaningful discrimination that I face. Not saying that it affects my life nor am I comparing it to the real discrimination that black people face in their lives. Just that it does happen. I would love to share my life experience with you, it would open your eyes a little as to the kind of person I really am, but that will be later if circumstance allows. As far as my work. I coordinate the release of people who have been arrrsted and awaiting trial. I fight for people to be able to have a fair shot at being treated accordingly to their crimes and their hisrory. I work with the D.A.'s office daily to keep people out of jail and I do this as if it were me wearing the other shoe. Typically I am the first person people talk to after being processed and before they talk to a judge/magistrate, so you can imagine that people aren't always in the best of moods when they see me.

 

[TheDude1]

Again...

It is super duper easy to say "next play" when none of the plays before have impacted you.

When other Americans have been shouting from the rooftops that it impacts THEM, I would expect more people to listen.

I am a bit baffled about why this is constantly not understood, to be honest.

 

[TheDude1]

I don't have time to address the whole post here. But I will be able to after 5 if the thread is still alive.

But I never said it was all about white liberals. Just that they were the driving force. I also am not saying that black people are not truly offended by the statues, just that if it affects their lives, they are doing life wrong. As far as meaningful discrimination that I face. Not saying that it affects my life nor am I comparing it to the real discrimination that black people face in their lives. Just that it does happen. I would love to share my life experience with you, it would open your eyes a little as to the kind of person I really am, but that will be later if circumstance allows. As far as my work. I coordinate the release of people who have been arrrsted and awaiting trial. I fight for people to be able to have a fair shot at being treated accordingly to their crimes and their hisrory. I work with the D.A.'s office daily to keep people out of jail and I do this as if it were me wearing the other shoe. Typically I am the first person people talk to after being processed and before they talk to a judge/magistrate, so you can imagine that people aren't always in the best of moods when they see me.

I look forward to it... sounds like you have a rather tough and emotional job, and unfortunately one in which you see people at their worst

Anyway, I'm going to check out too... I'm rather cranky this morning, and I think this is adding to it... I'm terrible at letting things go

 

[hart2chesson]

Again...

It is super duper easy to say "next play" when none of the plays before have impacted you.

When other Americans have been shouting from the rooftops that it impacts THEM, I would expect more people to listen.

I am a bit baffled about why this is constantly not understood, to be honest.

So sorry you're "baffled." I say "next play" because dwelling on past for anyone does no group or individual any good. Bitterness eats away at the human soul. Demonstrators on both sides need to move along. Violence is not the answer.
#AllLivesMatter

OFC

 

[Devilinside]

3rd time: "...their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together."
What are you looking for? A succinct answer about how removing statues will result in a specific, neat, clean fix of centuries-old problems?


None of it affects you... none of it affects anybody, apparently, and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves or lying, one. Looks like you have a pretty easy time believing it will solve nothing.
So what part of your question isn't rhetorical again? You had the only answer you'd accept chambered.


"Out." You'll just sit out.

3rd time: "...their literal removal represents a figurative removal of clinging to an ignoble past and a figurative effort to move on together."
What are you looking for? A succinct answer about how removing statues will result in a specific, neat, clean fix of centuries-old problems?


None of it affects you... none of it affects anybody, apparently, and anyone who says otherwise is deluding themselves or lying, one. Looks like you have a pretty easy time believing it will solve nothing.
So what part of your question isn't rhetorical again? You had the only answer you'd accept chambered.


"Out." You'll just sit out.

There you go again, Dattier. Just which part of the USA's past do you consider, in all of your progressive wisdom, to be "ignoble".

 

[TheDude1]

Uhhh... slavery? When half the country turned traitor, resulting in the deaths of more Americans than every other war in history, combined?

Just a guess.

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

A couple of things:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santanya -- I believe this was in reference to the rise of fascism in Spain. Still seems pretty true.

To me it seems eliminating the statues is more about trying to re-write history.

I think our society in the age of "Click to Like" has really dumbed down everyone. The real solution is move forward not dwell on the past.

How many streets, parks, buildings, bridges are named after people that you have no idea who they are or what they did? In Austin, the Capital of Texas and home of UT, I would put the number high hundreds or thousands. In the official State Cemetery, there is a large section of Confederate soldiers buried -- do we exhume them? How many soldiers in the South owned slaves? How many soldiers in the North joined the war to free slaves.

--and not to be trite--

There is Donner Pass, Donner Memorial State Park, and a Donner Party memorial. It is not an endorsement of cannibalism.

This is a weird topic.

 

[hart2chesson]

Potential clash of protesters and counter protesters avoided. Good move!
#AllLivesMatter

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...-m-for-canceling-white-nationalist-rally/amp/

OFC

 

[DukeDenver]

To me it seems eliminating the statues is more about trying to re-write history.

They are moving the statues, not eliminating them. Making them less visible is what they are doing.

What exactly is the rewritten message? Seriously, what is the story being changed to? I'm not sure what you mean by re-writing history. Is Robert E. Lee's story changing as the statue is in transit?

You know what sounds like an attempt to re-write history? Putting up a statue glorifying the Confederacy in the 1950-60s.

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

Potential clash of protesters and counter protesters avoided. Good move!
#AllLivesMatter

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...-m-for-canceling-white-nationalist-rally/amp/

OFC

Gig'm Aggies!!

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

They are moving the statues, not eliminating them. Making them less visible is what they are doing.

What exactly is the rewritten message? Seriously, what is the story being changed to? I'm not sure what you mean by re-writing history. Is Robert E. Lee's story changing as the statue is in transit?

The re-written message is "it didn't happen". Whether intentional or not, eliminating references reduces collective memory. In Germany, all of the concentration camps are national monuments and free of charge to the public. I am not sure what the answer is -- I can really flip-flop on this.

 

[DukeDenver]

The re-written message is "it didn't happen". Whether intentional or not, eliminating references reduces collective memory. In Germany, all of the concentration camps are national monuments and free of charge to the public. I am not sure what the answer is -- I can really flip-flop on this.

You used the word "eliminate" again.

Just take 24 hrs., then reread this statement you've made. If you still feel it makes perfect sense, then you and I have little chance of finding common ground here.

"Reducing collective memory" seems unlikely as the statue will be in a Confederate museum.

 

[Dattier]

I watched a segment on cnn yesterday where there was a black man explaining why these statues play no role in how he lives his life or how he raises his family...

If he means the literal statue, as in, it isn't literally, physically blocking his driveway or something, of course. What those statues represent, though, is deeply ingrained in society, and that definitely has an effect on people's lives.

 

[Dattier]

The re-written message is "it didn't happen". Whether intentional or not, eliminating references reduces collective memory. In Germany, all of the concentration camps are national monuments and free of charge to the public. I am not sure what the answer is -- I can really flip-flop on this.

There are no monuments in Germany memorializing the Nazis. The equivalent to the concentration camps would be memorials to slaves themselves and what they endured.

There's no lack of memory on any of it. Monuments serve the purpose of ongoing respect. We should not have ongoing respect for the Confederacy itself, or any individual in their capacity as a member of the Confederacy. I think UNC's Silent Sam and one Duke has on East campus should remain, as they are honoring former students for their affiliation to the school, not for their fighting for the Confederacy.

 

[DukeDenver]

There are no monuments in Germany memorializing the Nazis. The equivalent to the concentration camps would be memorials to slaves themselves and what they endured.

There's no lack of memory on any of it. Monuments serve the purpose of ongoing respect. We should not have ongoing respect for the Confederacy itself, or any individual in their capacity as a member of the Confederacy. I think UNC's Silent Sam and one Duke has on East campus should remain, as they are honoring former students for their affiliation to the school, not for their fighting for the Confederacy.

I don't mind ongoing respect for the Confederacy, just not the specifc ideals involving the forced slavery of my fellow man. We don't need statues front and center on state capitals or University chapels, but tasteful monuments recognizing a complicated, sad past are fine. I respect many aspects of the Confederacy, just not the main tenants.

 

[Dattier]

I don't mind ongoing respect for the Confederacy, just not the specifc ideals involving the forced slavery of my fellow man. We don't need statues front and center on state capitals or University chapels, but tasteful monuments recognizing a complicated, sad past are fine. I respect many aspects of the Confederacy, just not the main tenants.

I mean, people have the right to respect the Confederacy, but other than a completely revised, dishonest look at it where slavery isn't mentioned at all, I don't respect respecting it.

 

[dbav]

I wanted to respond to a couple of LT statements. I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just wanted to give some food for thought.

To me it seems eliminating the statues is more about trying to re-write history.

I don't think that taking down the statues is meant to re-write history. I think it is more an attempt to move on from it. Those statues could be representing a very painful time in the histories of many families and ethnic groups. I think the removal is an attempt to say "we know it happened, it's time to move on from it and not memorialize it". Personally, I'm a liberal and I don't care a great deal if they stay up, but I also grew up in the northeast and white, so I have no idea of what some of these people have been going through.

There is Donner Pass, Donner Memorial State Park, and a Donner Party memorial. It is not an endorsement of cannibalism.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think that the difference is the Donner Party didn't embark on the trip as cannibals. It was something that grew out of necessity for survival and it's my understanding (and please correct me as it's based on the History Channel, haha) that the Donners did not actually kill anyone for the purpose of eating them. They ate those that died of other causes. I think that is the contrast.

I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on you LT, because that's not my intention. I just think it's pretty great that we can have different interpretations of the same thing. I get those that want to keep those statues because of the governance ideals they support, but I also understand those that have a deep wound from the social ideals they held.

It's interesting, because I live in the northeast, but you do see confederate flags on vehicles and houses here. Frankly, I don't believe any of he people that have them are actually smart enough to understand the government structure they stand for. Instead I think, for many, it has become a "symbol" (and I use that loosely) of conservativism (which I don't believe it is). I also think that around here it is flown by people that want to show off that they are rednecks, haha.

Unfortunately, I believe our current president has fostered hate speech. Political correctness can go too far, but it does serve a positive purpose in society. By firing back at it, I think it has given a green light to every closet racist or bigot to be more vocal which then creates overreactions by the other side and becomes divisive. In the end, I think the over-the-top antics at the top has emboldened those at the bottom and increased hostility between a number of groups. I don't think removing statues is the answer to that, but perhaps it can be a starting point for more effective and impactful reforms.

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

I wanted to respond to a couple of LT statements. I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just wanted to give some food for thought.



I don't think that taking down the statues is meant to re-write history. I think it is more an attempt to move on from it. Those statues could be representing a very painful time in the histories of many families and ethnic groups. I think the removal is an attempt to say "we know it happened, it's time to move on from it and not memorialize it". Personally, I'm a liberal and I don't care a great deal if they stay up, but I also grew up in the northeast and white, so I have no idea of what some of these people have been going through.



I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think that the difference is the Donner Party didn't embark on the trip as cannibals. It was something that grew out of necessity for survival and it's my understanding (and please correct me as it's based on the History Channel, haha) that the Donners did not actually kill anyone for the purpose of eating them. They ate those that died of other causes. I think that is the contrast.

I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on you LT, because that's not my intention. I just think it's pretty great that we can have different interpretations of the same thing. I get those that want to keep those statues because of the governance ideals they support, but I also understand those that have a deep wound from the social ideals they held.

It's interesting, because I live in the northeast, but you do see confederate flags on vehicles and houses here. Frankly, I don't believe any of he people that have them are actually smart enough to understand the government structure they stand for. Instead I think, for many, it has become a "symbol" (and I use that loosely) of conservativism (which I don't believe it is). I also think that around here it is flown by people that want to show off that they are rednecks, haha.

Unfortunately, I believe our current president has fostered hate speech. Political correctness can go too far, but it does serve a positive purpose in society. By firing back at it, I think it has given a green light to every closet racist or bigot to be more vocal which then creates overreactions by the other side and becomes divisive. In the end, I think the over-the-top antics at the top has emboldened those at the bottom and increased hostility between a number of groups. I don't think removing statues is the answer to that, but perhaps it can be a starting point for more effective and impactful reforms.

@dbav / @Dattier -- As I said, I flip flop on this. Living in Texas, I see fewer Stars and Bars then when I go to Michigan. Don't worry -- I don't feel picked on -- I think it is an important conversation. I also feel that the further we get away from it, the more extreme and intolerant we get. That might be my perception. Anytime I see any Confederate flag on display I flip the bit.

The point that I was trying to make (poorly) is that making some broad stroke moves do not move any meaningful dialogue.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

I wanted to respond to a couple of LT statements. I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just wanted to give some food for thought.



I don't think that taking down the statues is meant to re-write history. I think it is more an attempt to move on from it. Those statues could be representing a very painful time in the histories of many families and ethnic groups. I think the removal is an attempt to say "we know it happened, it's time to move on from it and not memorialize it". Personally, I'm a liberal and I don't care a great deal if they stay up, but I also grew up in the northeast and white, so I have no idea of what some of these people have been going through.



I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think that the difference is the Donner Party didn't embark on the trip as cannibals. It was something that grew out of necessity for survival and it's my understanding (and please correct me as it's based on the History Channel, haha) that the Donners did not actually kill anyone for the purpose of eating them. They ate those that died of other causes. I think that is the contrast.

I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on you LT, because that's not my intention. I just think it's pretty great that we can have different interpretations of the same thing. I get those that want to keep those statues because of the governance ideals they support, but I also understand those that have a deep wound from the social ideals they held.

It's interesting, because I live in the northeast, but you do see confederate flags on vehicles and houses here. Frankly, I don't believe any of he people that have them are actually smart enough to understand the government structure they stand for. Instead I think, for many, it has become a "symbol" (and I use that loosely) of conservativism (which I don't believe it is). I also think that around here it is flown by people that want to show off that they are rednecks, haha.

Unfortunately, I believe our current president has fostered hate speech. Political correctness can go too far, but it does serve a positive purpose in society. By firing back at it, I think it has given a green light to every closet racist or bigot to be more vocal which then creates overreactions by the other side and becomes divisive. In the end, I think the over-the-top antics at the top has emboldened those at the bottom and increased hostility between a number of groups. I don't think removing statues is the answer to that, but perhaps it can be a starting point for more effective and impactful reforms.

Not LT. But wanted to say that I can respect all of the main talking points in this post.

I am much closer to the conservative side than I am the liberal side. @TheDude1 can attest to that. But like the flip side of your POV, I am from the south and I couldn't care less about the confederate statues staying or leaving. My issue is with the dire need to remove them without considering both sides. It also lies with the need for extreme groups to take advantage of the moment and use it to cause mayhem in places they don't even live. But that is whatever.

On the confederate flag. I am a southerner and have the proper amount pride being a southerner. I have never understood why so many young people fly the flag. It symbolizes something completely different than it's original intent. The clearly uneducated are the ones you see driving around with them. And that is not an insult to the flag, but the proud rednecks that fly it without even knowing what it stood for.

 

[dbav]

@dbav / @Dattier -- As I said, I flip flop on this. Living in Texas, I see fewer Stars and Bars then when I go to Michigan. Don't worry -- I don't feel picked on -- I think it is an important conversation. I also feel that the further we get away from it, the more extreme and intolerant we get. That might be my perception. Anytime I see any Confederate flag on display I flip the bit.

The point that I was trying to make (poorly) is that making some broad stroke moves do not move any meaningful dialogue.

We definitely agree on thone points.

 

[dbav]

Not LT. But wanted to say that I can respect all of the main talking points in this post.

I am much closer to the conservative side than I am the liberal side. @TheDude1 can attest to that. But like the flip side of your POV, I am from the south and I couldn't care less about the confederate statues staying or leaving. My issue is with the dire need to remove them without considering both sides. It also lies with the need for extreme groups to take advantage of the moment and use it to cause mayhem in places they don't even live. But that is whatever.

On the confederate flag. I am a southerner and have the proper amount pride being a southerner. I have never understood why so many young people fly the flag. It symbolizes something completely different than it's original intent. The clearly uneducated are the ones you see driving around with them. And that is not an insult to the flag, but the proud rednecks that fly it without even knowing what it stood for.

I can get on board with that.

 

[Dattier]

@dbav / @Dattier -- As I said, I flip flop on this. Living in Texas, I see fewer Stars and Bars then when I go to Michigan. Don't worry -- I don't feel picked on -- I think it is an important conversation. I also feel that the further we get away from it, the more extreme and intolerant we get. That might be my perception. Anytime I see any Confederate flag on display I flip the bit.

The point that I was trying to make (poorly) is that making some broad stroke moves do not move any meaningful dialogue.

I think broad strokes will do when the option is no strokes, but in and of themselves, yes, they're largely symbolic and bolster resolve rather than advance dialogue.

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

I think broad strokes will do when the option is no strokes, but in and of themselves, yes, they're largely symbolic and bolster resolve rather than advance dialogue.

Dat -- I guess I will have to politely disagree. Movement without progress is thrashing. I would not frame it as "no strokes vs. broad strokes". I don't know what it is, but there has to be something in between to build on.

 

[Dattier]

Dat -- I guess I will have to politely disagree. Movement without progress is thrashing. I would not frame it as "no strokes vs. broad strokes". I don't know what it is, but there has to be something in between to build on.

No worries. I'm kind of working through a few gray areas here myself. I know that in NC, it's just about impossible to get a statue moved. There's a law against it that has to be appealed to the state, which leans heavily conservative right now. In this case, it was a choice between direct action and doing nothing. I do pause on applying it any more broadly, or as a default.

 

[TheDude1]

One question, as I'm just sitting in the car waiting for something… is there another symbol of Southern pride, outside of the flag? I couldn't really think of one. I can't think of any example of northern symbols…?

Second, just to be pedantic… The stars and bars is not the flag you are thinking of. The flag you're thinking of is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia; very few people ever fly the stars and bars

Stars and bars:

ANV battle flag:

Again though, good stuff… People breaking away from the party line in some instances, and everyone staying pretty civil Good job, us!

 

[df64]

This is not and should not be a liberal vs. conservative argument. Anyone who respects our constitution, is a Christian, Jew, or of most any other religion, and or just considers themselves to be a decent caring person should be against racism. Just because some blacks, whites, liberals, conservatives, etc don't personally care about these monuments or maybe aren't aware of the meaning and history behind them doesn't change what they primarily represent. They represent an group that went to hell and back to preserve slavery. That is the history. It's place is in museums and textbooks accurately depicting the roles of both north and south, good and bad.

 

[LongTimeDukeFan]

One question, as I'm just sitting in the car waiting for something… is there another symbol of Southern pride, outside of the flag? I couldn't really think of one. I can't think of any example of northern symbols…?

Second, just to be pedantic… The stars and bars is not the flag you are thinking of. The flag you're thinking of is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia; very few people ever fly the stars and bars

Stars and bars:

ANV battle flag:

Again though, good stuff… People breaking away from the party line in some instances, and everyone staying pretty civil Good job, us!

That's easy....

 

[SwatX1]

That's easy....

I was going to say boiled peanuts, but if you add an RC cola to that moon pie, I think that trumps the peanuts!!