Jacob Young
- Thread starter Randal7
- Start date
Let's sum up 2020-21 this way,
Jacob and Geo starting backcourt, 6-8 (1,8-13,22-28) 1-0,1-5,4-3
Geo w/ Paul or Caleb backcourt, 5-3 (Games 14-21)
JY w/ Mathis backcourt, 5-1 (Games 2-7)
But Gm 8 Purdue, possibly JY/MM, Geo 3, Paul 4, JY/Geo 5-8, JY/MM 6-1
JY and Geo were not a fit as a backcourt. Geo/Mathis backcourt 13-6 19-20, Caleb/Mathis backcourt 7-5 19-20. The team won more than lost every combination but Geo and JY.
Jacob and Geo starting backcourt, 6-8 (1,8-13,22-28) 1-0,1-5,4-3
Geo w/ Paul or Caleb backcourt, 5-3 (Games 14-21)
JY w/ Mathis backcourt, 5-1 (Games 2-7)
But Gm 8 Purdue, possibly JY/MM, Geo 3, Paul 4, JY/Geo 5-8, JY/MM 6-1
JY and Geo were not a fit as a backcourt. Geo/Mathis backcourt 13-6 19-20, Caleb/Mathis backcourt 7-5 19-20. The team won more than lost every combination but Geo and JY.
Thanks for the analysis. I'd be interested in seeing how they performed together on the court in the minutes they played together.
Both Geo and Jacob need the ball in their hands to be successful. In a perfect world I'd want neither to be my point guard. The world is not perfect.
That's a bit misleading, because it doesn't take into account the rest of the lineup around those pairings, or the absence of Omoruyi/Harper/Baker/McConnell from the lineup entirely for specific games (which impacts the outcome).
Pike also doesn't use a fully defined 1/2 all the time, sometimes having 3 guards in the backcourt who can all handle the 1/2 duties (speaking to his "positionless" mindset). For instance, you separate Young/Baker being together for games 22-28, and Baker/Mulcahy for games 14-21.... but Young/Baker/Mulcahy were all together for games 23-28, and trading off duties at the 1/2 on different possessions.
Looking just at high major starting lineups:
Games 4-6: Mulcahy/Young/Mathis/Harper/Omoruyi
Game 7: Mulcahy/Young/Mathis/Harper/Johnson
Game 8: Young/Baker/Mathis/Mulcahy/Johnson
Game 9-13: Young/Baker/Mathis/Harper/Johnson
Game 14-21: Mulcahy/Baker/McConnell/Harper/Johnson
Game 22: Young/Baker/Harper/Doucoure/Johnson
Game 23-28: Young/Baker/Mulcahy/Harper/Johnson
That breakout also doesn't account for strength of schedule, either.
From the lineup data we have (again, missing certain games, does not include non-major teams):
Baker/Young in together: 447.55 min, scored/allowed delta of 0.07 (1.84 pts/min scored, 1.77 pts/min allowed)
Baker in without Young: 232.95 min, scored/allowed delta of 0.20 (1.62 pts/min scored, 1.42 pts/min allowed)
Young in without Baker: 162.155 min, scored/allowed delta of 0.06 (1.58 pts/min scored, 1.52 pts/min allowed)
Baker and no Young numbers are interesting. I still think there is a sample size issue, but it definitely grabs attention.
To add on, the data set I use shows... (filtered out low quality opponents and garbage time)
Baker AND NOT Young: +20.4 points per 100 possessions
Young AND NOT Baker: +16.0 points per 100 possessions
Baker AND Young together: +17.6 points per 100 possessions
Baker AND NOT Young: +20.4 points per 100 possessions
Young AND NOT Baker: +16.0 points per 100 possessions
Baker AND Young together: +17.6 points per 100 possessions
definitely nothing to do with Final Fours
I mean yes Oregon has been better than Rutgers in basketball the last 10-20 years, but it's not like they are Duke or Kentucky. KenPom ranks them as similar to Maryland and Purdue over the last 24 years in terms of program strength.
I think I saw PM do it... ONCE. It was a bit shocking too.. his threes were mostly open where he got passed the ball.
It has been disappointing to me for a while now that when we get forced into a half-court O it always seems to end up with a lot of standing around then them someone forcing a shot, possibly off a one on one move... or getting the ball passed to them late off same.
Should end the thread with kcg's post. The fanbase should be celebrating the team's success over the past two years after decades of futility - but are are now instead taking shots at current players like Ron and Geo for being "soft" or "unfocused" due to things like their view on politics or some type of opinion on institutional favoritism. I'm just not on board with the cult like deference to JY essentially being the entire "team" in this thread or podcast. Pike, while not always perfect, has tried to build a foundational team culture where the sum is greater than the indivudual parts.
Thanks to JY for his contributions, and maybe I'm old school, but I don't root for the individual over the team/program (my alma mater). Once a player freely chooses to go elsewhere, time to move on and focus on what's ahead.
You watch opponents with “snipers” running defenders all around the court with multiple picks just hoping to get a split second to stick a 3 in your eye.
Maybe that is just old basketball circa 2016
Great post! This should end the thread and close the chapter but it won’t because fanboyz are gonna be fanboyz.
We didn’t do that in the podcast. And you know how I know? Because we have another player from the squad on in a week. If they felt we were hopelessly biased why come on? Stay tuned.
And JY gave us 3 years of his life. Prime years. I’m not gonna forget it and I appreciate that effort and those memories. If that makes me a fanboy then so be it.
totally agree that this is what I expect to see on offense.. however, we had several issues with this...
1) the effort we put in on D.. yeah.. we got to rest a bit on O when forced into half-court O. I get that.
2) do we have any "snipers"?
This is a good look. For more context can you put the opponents under each situation for games that are included and list separately what games are not included, and what games was there no data for and therefore not included? There’s probably a simpler way to say that lol.
List each game underneath and how many minutes from that game were factored in maybe
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Hah, no, I can't. This is just from hoop-explorer.com. I admit I don't know how exactly they mine their data, but it will give you the number of possessions with any given lineup.
Actually I just looked it up and in his overview (written in 2019, I believe, so perhaps it's gotten better?) says "There are a bunch of possessions missing due to data quality issues with the NCAA play-by-play"
Why wouldn't another player come on to the podcast? There were no direct attacks against other players - just a lot of smoke pumped up JY's arse (and admittedly that might just be the style needed for an interview) along with some passive aggressive references to how he deserved more than the other players, such as when you referenced the last shot in the Houston game.
In terms of JY giving 3 years of his life.......sorry but you make is sound like playing college basketball is akin to sweeping for mines in Afghanistan. It's not. JY gave his transfer commitment to RU and in return RU gave JY an education and a competition for playing time. In other words its not a one way street. As I've mentioned, I loved what JY did for the team/program and sad to see him go, but no need for hero worship from me as I would imagine that all athletes on the roster similarly give "years of their life / Prime Years" from the best scholarship player to the last man on the bench walk on. To not think that is to not appreciate what they are ALL asked to do in terms of practice, conditioning, travel, COVID sequestering, studies, classes etc...... well beyond the minutes per game they are allotted or lack thereof.
Geez how can they produce data and not define the data set by listing the games included. Thanks for showing what you could
I mean, I get him wanting the ball at the end of the game. All good players want the ball. But to feel like he deserved the ball is a bit much. Young was 1-4 from 3 during the game (and just 3/8 from 2), and had been 1-7 from 3 at the ends of close games throughout the year.
He's a great player, but he's not the first option I'd be looking for in a "final play" situation.
He's a great player, but he's not the first option I'd be looking for in a "final play" situation.
I mean he definitely deserved the ball he was our best scorer all year and got us into the tournament.
Keep in mind it’s not even a situation where he couldn’t find a shot or was involved in the play but made the pass. Game on the line and Pikiell didn’t even involve him. That’s gotta be pretty disheartening given his year.
He drew up a 3 for a guy who was 20% from three over the last 3 months (31% on the year).
I would’ve given it to Geo before Ron in that situation Geo was improving in the back half of the year.
I think we are all speculating, especially myself, about what things were like with the chemistry dynamic. Jacob could be totally out of line with some of his quotes and actions. It is possible he really did get a raw deal and had to deal with lousy teammates and a coach that sided with the other side.
I know the answer is somewhere in between.
I know the answer is somewhere in between.
He did deserve the last shot vs Houston (in my view)
I do appreciate all the players and their contributions. JY is just one of those guys. I'll say nice things about all the guys that played for us.
Not on last years roster….we have guys that can receive a pass stand still and shoot. We have a guy that can create a shot with a step back move (and make it with a low perccentage)
The bigger debate with the last shot really is Pikiell taking the air out of the ball and telegraphing who is going to take the last shot. It has worked in the past so that is why it is debatable.
the answer I would like to see with the last second is a few things going on off the ball so there are a few options to choose from.
the answer I would like to see with the last second is a few things going on off the ball so there are a few options to choose from.
c'mon man you cannot be serious lmao if Corey wasn't a talented basketball player he wouldn't have graduated high school. I like the kid a lot but he's not the sharpest tool in the shed
Don't disagree about Harper - he was 2/4 in that game, but he hadn't been good in the stretch of games running up to the tournament. Baker had also been struggling from deep. Young was having arguably his worst performances of the year with just 9 points in 33 minutes and .333 from the field.
No one really "deserved" the last shot, imo.
And that’s why this is a great country. We can agree to disagree and peacefully coexist. At least, that’s how we used to operate
Wow - this board can get a little crazy at times. Jacob was a great addition to the team and I enjoyed his time here. He helped up get to the NCAA and will be missed this year. Wish him the best of luck at Oregon and in life!
Wait.....I thought it was Greene who wanted Jacob to sit for the rest of the 2019-20 season, after he was cited for DUI, which caused him to miss a game.
But maybe my memory is wrong (sarcasm level high).
I think the best way to summarize what we are seeing is a combination of items that some fans don't like.
A) Some fans don't like Geo, because he stood for social justice publicly and those fans are essentially the "Shut up and dribble, you're lucky to have a scholarship " people.
B) People don't like players who are underdogs or overachievers.....they prefer to only get excited for kids who are Top 150 kids.
C) There are fans who only like players who give off a false bravado or arrogant swagger, which is what fans see and equate to playing hard.
The bottom line is every talented or good player, doesn't automatically mean they're the right fit for a roster. What I find ironic is the kid who plays selfishly, plays outside the team concepts and is now a 6th year player, on his 3rd college program is somehow deemed the hero, but the player who actually was part of the rebuild and makes clutch shot after shot and is clearly the less athletic or skilled player, is the one who is loyal to RU, is somehow vilified.
Strange times indeed but I hate to break the news to "fans", there are other sports, other schools and other things to root for, if RU isn't for you.....
Lot of sweeping generalizations in this thread. Really biased opinions as well.
As the guy who was the first person to say Geo is an average player (his try junior season - and got crushed for ONLY saying that) I am just going to say once that it was well before Geo said anything off the court (which I am fully supportive of). I just want to make sure everyone understands I am not part of the “don’t like Geo because of what he says” club.
The fact is Geo has not actually made as many clutch shots as suggested (documented this plenty of times) and the games he has made a clutch shot was usually, though not always, a close game where we were favored by a lot but barely got out alive. Half the time Geo had a a good game when that happened and half the time he had a bad game.
I think if you boil it down just to Basketball the board is split into two:
1. Group who realizes the transfers of Yeboah and Young and growth of Ron and Myles are what pushed this team into the tournament
2. Group who thinks because Geo was here first he’s the guy responsible for getting to the tournament.
Ultimately, the people in group one (who are not anti off the court Geo) like Geo and consider him a good piece on the team.
For whatever reason, the people in group 2 get really really mad that the people in group 1 are right and not overly praising Geos solid average role.
The people in group 2 also get mad at anti off court Geo people putting that context into their Geo is OK only posts. That I get to a certain extent.
What if this team doesn't make the tournament this year? Just curious how you'll rationalize that.
(I expect they will make the tournament, btw)
NJH,
that is accurate. Penalty should have been more, but I admit I was overreacting.
My views about drunk driving are pretty extreme.
that is accurate. Penalty should have been more, but I admit I was overreacting.
My views about drunk driving are pretty extreme.
I have thought Geo is a below average B1G starting guard for awhile. I was hoping he wouldn’t come back before the NIL stuff. I am totally against NIL for many reasons. That being said I don’t hold any of that against Geo. I respect Geo for making a stand, but I don’t agree with him.
It is entirely possible they could not make the NCAAs, but have already outlined that it is better off that Young and Mathis make room for Jaden Jones and Aundre Hyatt because I think Jones and Hyatt are better shooters, passers and more importantly, will be here (in theory) after 2021-22.
Young and Mathis, with Harper, Geo, Caleb are 5 kids who can ultimately depart or graduate after this season.....and you have no legitimate chance to replace 5 key players in one offseason.
So I am probably going to sacrifice some production or drop off if you compare Jacob Young, a 6th year player to a 18 or 19 year old frosh in Jaden Jones....and I believe at worse, Hyatt and Mathis are a wash (even though, I believe Hyatt as a front court player is significantly more important to 2022-23 than anything given in 2021-22.)
In your theory, missing the NCAAs is possible in 2021-22, but keeping this roster intact from last year to this year, ensures that 2022-23 would not be a NCAA caliber roster.
By replacing Young and Mathis now with Jaden Jones and Aundre Hyatt, RU has an opportunity to make the NCAAs in 2021-22 and has 2 players in Hyatt and Jones who can step forward in 2022-23, to sustain the success of the program (with the remaining core pieces like Cliff, Mulcahy, Caleb, Etc).
I also think that this year's roster will mesh better and become more like 2019-20 than 2020-21.....both were NCAA caliber rosters, one appeared (to me) to play as a more cohesive unit in 2019-20, than 2020-21. And I believe that while Young was a part of both teams, 2019-20 had Yeboah and Shaq Carter and anticipate Hyatt being in the Yeboah role and Agee being in the Carter role.
Think Geo is a special kind of leader who has maxed out his athletic potential. I don’t think we make the turn as quickly without him - much like Greg doesn’t make the turn without the leaders he had in the earliest classes. No doubt JY was one of the most athletic and funnest to watch we’ve had, just a live wire on the court. Even watch him on D was fun.
Not only the foul at the end of the Purdue game, he should have been T'D up
If the refs did that, we never ever would have forgiven Jacob...... if it cost us a bid
JY nor Geo was the perfect answer at point guard, both more combo guard.
JY is the more gifted offensive and defensive player, takes better shots, a better %, but turns the ball over more, more scorer than distributor, defensive analytics says not consistent enough, turns up defense at the end or when he want to.
2016-17 -12.5/30.2 2017-18 18.5/5.1 2019-20 -1.2/5.9 2020-21 15.0/-2.0
Geo has been one level of offensive player for 4 years, 10.8, 12.2, 10.9, 10.4, but improved his overall offensive game analytically, better on 2s, worse on 3s over 4 years, takes care of the ball better and plays more in the system, analytics says more consistent defensively
2017-18 -7.3/30.3 2018-19 -6.7/20.8 2019-20 12.9/19.1 2020-21 19.4/17.2
Both, their freshman year credited playing good defense against second team guys. Up tick in competition, where analytics say Geo played better, more consistant defense even though Jacob has potential to be the better defender.
Paul 2019-20 -3.4/8.1 20-21 31.3/23.9
Is Paul the perfect option at Point guard? Probably not, but you see the improvement analytically from freshman to sophomore year. I think he deserves the opportunity and slide Geo to a more natural 2 guard spot offensively. You just have to make sure Paul has a defender for the 1 to slide him to 2 or 3 defensively.
JY is the more gifted offensive and defensive player, takes better shots, a better %, but turns the ball over more, more scorer than distributor, defensive analytics says not consistent enough, turns up defense at the end or when he want to.
2016-17 -12.5/30.2 2017-18 18.5/5.1 2019-20 -1.2/5.9 2020-21 15.0/-2.0
Geo has been one level of offensive player for 4 years, 10.8, 12.2, 10.9, 10.4, but improved his overall offensive game analytically, better on 2s, worse on 3s over 4 years, takes care of the ball better and plays more in the system, analytics says more consistent defensively
2017-18 -7.3/30.3 2018-19 -6.7/20.8 2019-20 12.9/19.1 2020-21 19.4/17.2
Both, their freshman year credited playing good defense against second team guys. Up tick in competition, where analytics say Geo played better, more consistant defense even though Jacob has potential to be the better defender.
Paul 2019-20 -3.4/8.1 20-21 31.3/23.9
Is Paul the perfect option at Point guard? Probably not, but you see the improvement analytically from freshman to sophomore year. I think he deserves the opportunity and slide Geo to a more natural 2 guard spot offensively. You just have to make sure Paul has a defender for the 1 to slide him to 2 or 3 defensively.
