If you can't do it right, then do not do it all.

[Luvscarletknights]

Why did the guy in Bac's line touch everybody's phone then? Did the event staff also touch other poster's phones, or did Bac just pick a bad line to go in? Or is the ticket machine one thing, and the verification of vaccination or negative test another thing that might require handling of the phone by staff? (It's hard to get to a game at the JMAC from Arizona, so it's been a few years for me and I don't know how the entry process works...)

2 different things. Never had my phone handled for either. I use docket App so maybe they touch phone to look at vax card picture.

The guy in our line on left side did not touch any phones in the group around me.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

Europe said otherwise for the most part

and also i just have to roll my eyes at your flu comment given we have been saying that for a year too

https://www.newsweek.com/cdc-school...re-war-europe-who-avoided-coronavirus-1660469

Now you want to follow Europe's lead

Jesus, you spit ******** out of both sides of your face.

 

[RU848789]

Europe said otherwise for the most part

and also i just have to roll my eyes at your flu comment given we have been saying that for a year too

https://www.newsweek.com/cdc-school...re-war-europe-who-avoided-coronavirus-1660469

I've been saying it for 20 months, but what you always fail to realize is that COVID masking in schools and elsewhere, for children was mostly about protecting the vulnerable, not about protecting the children, as death rates from COVID are only a bit higher in kids than they are for the flu. Remember, I was the one who only half jokingly suggested locking all the kids together in schools with 20-year old chaperones for a month so they could all get infected, so that the rest of us would be far better protected from infection.

 

[bac2therac]

I've been saying it for 20 months, but what you always fail to realize is that COVID masking in schools and elsewhere, for children was mostly about protecting the vulnerable, not about protecting the children, as death rates from COVID are only a bit higher in kids than they are for the flu. Remember, I was the one who only half jokingly suggested locking all the kids together in schools with 20-year old chaperones for a month so they could all get infected, so that the rest of us would be far better protected from infection.

protecting what vulnerable? bring spring of 2021 we had vaccines....remember how De Santis was killed all because of politics because he dared to say masks were optional.

the teachers should have been wearing masks if they were worried, if fauci and biden were competant they would have provided the schools with N95s, if the schools truly cared they would have purchased n95s with all the free money they were given

 

[AZBlues]

As expected you go after me by calling me lazy in order to justify why the CDC is not publishing this basic information. Googling the internet? Oh yea - after all if it is on the internet it must be true.

So in conclusion, you think that after two full years of the most highly publicized pandemic in our lifetime the supposed gold standard for disease control can't publish this basic information. Could it be possible that the info is available but publishing it would contradict every policy they have forced on the country???

What are you talking about? You asked someone else to find information for you, most of which you could easily find yourself... I looked up the things you questioned just to see if the information was readily available. Why does the CDC have to publish that information if other sources already publish it, or if there aren't accurate records of it? And I didn't go after you by calling you lazy, but I admit that I did tease about your erroneous numbering of your 3 questions in your post.

Please don't make assumptions and conclusions about other people's beliefs or opinions without having the necessary amount of information to accurately do so.... And where do you find your facts, data, and statistics if not on the internet? Or maybe you feel that facts, data, and statistics aren't necessary in order for you to form your opinions? Please explain.

 

[RU848789]

protecting what vulnerable? bring spring of 2021 we had vaccines....remember how De Santis was killed all because of politics because he dared to say masks were optional.

the teachers should have been wearing masks if they were worried, if fauci and biden were competant they would have provided the schools with N95s, if the schools truly cared they would have purchased n95s with all the free money they were given

Vaccines weren't 100% available to anyone who wanted them until late April, iirc, and I was fine with continuing with masking until the school year was over in June, just to give everyone enough time to get vaccinated (it was a challenge for some). I did not generally support masking in schools this past fall - I would have rather absolutely insisted on being vaccinated to work in a school. I did think reinstituting masking at the start of the omicron wave made sense, since we knew so little about it then and being conservative there was the right call, IMO.

 

[SkilletHead2]

I respect your science background - but your answer made my point better then I could ever have. Not a single word you wrote had any certainly or science behind it. It is filled with maybes, minor chances and possibilities. That is not science. I am fully vaccinated but respect others rights. Once it was "proven" that as a vaccinated person I could still give the virus to someone else my view on mandates totally changed. And the ridiculous screening at the RU games is just another indicator of overreach based on politics. I could have shown a Costco card at the last game and would have gotten in. This needs to stop. Many unvaccinated people are safer to be around than me - that is the only fact that matters.

I think you have science confused with engineering. RU848789's posts are almost always filled with the latest science, as was the one you objected to. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it mumbo jumbo. And when estimates have confidence intervals or probabilities associated with them, that doesn't mean it isn't scientific.

If you are vaccinated and boosted, then no, an unvaccinated person is not safer to be around than you. That is false. They are much more likely to have the virus and to spread it than you are. And it would be irresponsible for a government not to try to stop the spread of a virus that can kill.

We now live in a world with a strain of a virus that we simply cannot stop. Basically, all we can do is: 1) try to slow it's spread so that hospitals are not overwhelmed, and 2) get as many people vaxxed and boosted in order to, again, keep the hospital admissions down and lessen the mortality rate. In America, we are probably entering the end game of that, although there are still about a quarter of a million new cases a day, and 2500 deaths a day, most of them unnecessary in people who refused to get vaccinated.

 

[RUfubar_rivals]

What are you talking about? You asked someone else to find information for you, most of which you could easily find yourself... I looked up the things you questioned just to see if the information was readily available. Why does the CDC have to publish that information if other sources already publish it, or if there aren't accurate records of it? And I didn't go after you by calling you lazy, but I admit that I did tease about your erroneous numbering of your 3 questions in your post.

Please don't make assumptions and conclusions about other people's beliefs or opinions without having the necessary amount of information to accurately do so.... And where do you find your facts, data, and statistics if not on the internet? Or maybe you feel that facts, data, and statistics aren't necessary in order for you to form your opinions? Please explain.

I am confused by this debate. All that matters is excess deaths. What does it matter what age, comorbidities (most in US have some) etc. A death is a death. I linked article showing how 3 countries have tracked this as s.o.p for a century. USA is not one that has but you can extrapolate.


All-cause mortality is a key metric to assess the impact of the pandemic, because each death is treated equally," said F. Perry Wilson, MD, of Yale University, in an interview. "With this type of analysis, there is no vague definition of a death from COVID or with COVID," he explained. "A death is a death, and more deaths than expected is, of course, a bad thing. These analyses give a high-level view of the true human cost of the pandemic," he said.
Wilson said he was not surprised by the findings. "There have been multiple studies, across multiple countries including the United States, which show similar findings—that observed deaths during this pandemic are substantially higher than expected," he said. The current study findings are unique in that they compare the current pandemic to death rates in a nearly unbroken chain into the last century using data that only a few countries can provide, he noted.


The mortality data are "quite similar to what we see in the United States, with the exception that Spain was particularly hard-hit in the first COVID-19 wave in April 2020, said Wilson. By contrast, "the U.S. had substantially more excess deaths in the recent Delta wave, presumably due to lower vaccination uptake," he added.


The current study is important for clinicians and their patients, said Wilson. "Data like these can help cut through some of the misinformation, such as the idea that only people who would have died anyway die of COVID, or that COVID is not severe," he emphasized. "Overall death data are quite clear that far more people, millions more people, died over the last 22 months than could possibly be explained except by a global-level mortality event," he said.
One thing this study reminds us of is the value of high-quality data," said Wilson. "Few countries have near complete vital statistics records on their entire populations and these can be so crucial to understand the true impact of pandemics and other disasters," he explained. Of course, mortality data also serve as a reminder "that COVID is a serious disease: a once-in-a-century (we hope) pandemic," he added.


The current study showed that excess death rates were similar, but not the same, from country to country, Wilson noted. "Moving forward, we need to learn what factors, from vaccination to social distancing strategies," saved lives around the world," he said.


Conclusion:
Covid pandemic is the second-largest cause of death due to a viral infection in a century
Now that's impressive & we are underreporting in US regions in all likelihood
? Can patients understand the need for public health measures that may be viewed as unprecedented, such as government-imposed lockdowns, contact tracing, mask requirements, restrictions on travel, and vaccine mandates.

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

I've been right about almost everything related to the pandemic and Rutgers sports, so here's my last prediction. We'll keep the current system in place with masks and proof of vaccination through the end of the season, since it's only 4 more games and a few more weeks and it seems silly to change that now. It's possible they'll reverse the no food/beverages rule, though, which was always silly, IMO. Beyond that, we've seen the last of mask requirements for sporting events once the hoops season is over (will coincide with the schools announcement, IMO) and I think we'll probably even drop the vaccine requirements for campus activities/sports for fall semester, assuming we're well into the endemic phase of COVID by then (should be there in the next month or so, really), which will happen, barring some new variant worse than omicron (theoretically possible, but unlikely, IMO).

For anyone wondering if I have any credibility in this area...

• I predicted the cancellation of the basketball season in early March 2020, more than a week before it was cancelled, as it was obvious we were headed towards the worst pandemic in 100 years, which is why my immunocompromised family went into quarantine on 3/2, well before most others did.
• I also said in January 2021 that we'd have down around 10,000 cases/day and a few hundred deaths per day by June 2021, assuming a high percentage of vaccinations, especially of the vulnerable. Of course, unlike almost everyone else, I did not foresee a more transmissible delta and then omicron.
• In June, I said we'd have full stadiums without masks for football season and a full RAC, with masks likely for basketball season and was right on those.
• On 12/21/21 when many were predicting the cancellation of the hoops season due to omicron, I said the omicron peak would be very high, but sharp with a fast decline and that hoops would not be cancelled, although we'd likely see some games cancelled due to team infections.
• As an aside, I didn't think we'd see so much waning of effectiveness of the vaccines, requiring boosters after ~6 months, so was wrong on that
• I was also wrong in early Feb 2020 that this would likely not be worse than a bad flu season - but that thinking only lasted until late Feb, when we saw the impacts in SK and Italy.
• I did predict in April 2020 that we'd have commercially available vaccines by the end of 2020.
• I said we should encourage universal masking a month before the CDC recommended it in April 2020.
• And finally, back in April 2020, assuming herd immunity (of the original strain) was around 70% and assuming an infection fatality ratio of about 0.5%, I predicted we'd see in the neighborhood of 1.3MM deaths eventually - the reason we're "only" at 900K deaths now is vaccines.

LOLz

 

[Joey Bags]

Minnesota ended their vaccine mandate for Gopher games.

Will be interesting if this goes away at some schools but becomes permanent, even when case levels are low, at others.

 

[RU848789]

I am confused by this debate. All that matters is excess deaths. What does it matter what age, comorbidities (most in US have some) etc. A death is a death. I linked article showing how 3 countries have tracked this as s.o.p for a century. USA is not one that has but you can extrapolate.


All-cause mortality is a key metric to assess the impact of the pandemic, because each death is treated equally," said F. Perry Wilson, MD, of Yale University, in an interview. "With this type of analysis, there is no vague definition of a death from COVID or with COVID," he explained. "A death is a death, and more deaths than expected is, of course, a bad thing. These analyses give a high-level view of the true human cost of the pandemic," he said.
Wilson said he was not surprised by the findings. "There have been multiple studies, across multiple countries including the United States, which show similar findings—that observed deaths during this pandemic are substantially higher than expected," he said. The current study findings are unique in that they compare the current pandemic to death rates in a nearly unbroken chain into the last century using data that only a few countries can provide, he noted.


The mortality data are "quite similar to what we see in the United States, with the exception that Spain was particularly hard-hit in the first COVID-19 wave in April 2020, said Wilson. By contrast, "the U.S. had substantially more excess deaths in the recent Delta wave, presumably due to lower vaccination uptake," he added.


The current study is important for clinicians and their patients, said Wilson. "Data like these can help cut through some of the misinformation, such as the idea that only people who would have died anyway die of COVID, or that COVID is not severe," he emphasized. "Overall death data are quite clear that far more people, millions more people, died over the last 22 months than could possibly be explained except by a global-level mortality event," he said.
One thing this study reminds us of is the value of high-quality data," said Wilson. "Few countries have near complete vital statistics records on their entire populations and these can be so crucial to understand the true impact of pandemics and other disasters," he explained. Of course, mortality data also serve as a reminder "that COVID is a serious disease: a once-in-a-century (we hope) pandemic," he added.


The current study showed that excess death rates were similar, but not the same, from country to country, Wilson noted. "Moving forward, we need to learn what factors, from vaccination to social distancing strategies," saved lives around the world," he said.


Conclusion:
Covid pandemic is the second-largest cause of death due to a viral infection in a century
Now that's impressive & we are underreporting in US regions in all likelihood
? Can patients understand the need for public health measures that may be viewed as unprecedented, such as government-imposed lockdowns, contact tracing, mask requirements, restrictions on travel, and vaccine mandates.

The say a picture is worth a thousand words and in this case I think that applies. Over 1.2MM excess deaths in the US during COVID vs. the 900K deaths assigned to COVID by doctors on death certificates, meaning the true COVID death toll was significantly greater than has been reported, as those additional 300K deaths aren't accounted for by any other causes of death.

 

[Scarlet83]

The say a picture is worth a thousand words and in this case I think that applies. Over 1.2MM excess deaths in the US during COVID vs. the 900K deaths assigned to COVID by doctors on death certificates, meaning the true COVID death toll was significantly greater than has been reported, as those additional 300K deaths aren't accounted for by any other causes of death.

Numbers- Do you have a link to that graph? Thanks!

 

[RU848789]

Numbers- Do you have a link to that graph? Thanks!

Here's a link to the site - you need to create the graphs on your own - scroll down to the cumulative excess deaths section and select the countries you're interested in...

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

 

[RU Husky]

Got stuck in that mess also. If that screening was actually accomplishing something I would just deal with it and not complain - but after reading the massive John Hopkins study it is pretty clear that those institutions who constantly preach "follow the science" selectively "ignore the science" when it does not match that organizations political alignment.

Don't think I've seen reference to this part of the "Johns Hopkins" study in this long thread. According to the research “Mandating face masks-an intervention that was not widely used in the spring of 2020, and in many countries was even discouraged-seems to have a large effect (-21.2%), but this conclusion is based on only two studies.” (emphasis mine). Apparently, even the skeptics who wrote the report concluded that masking had a significant positive impact albeit based on limited sampling.

Is this another example of the "selective ignorance" that the poster is referring to?

 

[bac2therac]

https://www.startribune.com/university-of-minnesota-ends-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/600144468/

 

[RUaMoose_rivals]

It is kind of sad when otherwise smart clear thinking people can never admit they were wrong and in this case most likely duped by a group of bureaucrats. Wouldn't is be refreshing to hear just one of the CDC followers after looking at the new info and obvious facts to say "wow - looks like I may have been wrong". Since we will never hear those words you can only reach one conclusion - they are not following the "science" but they are dedicated to the politics.
And the scariest conclusion is most don't even realize it - that is why we get nothing but rambling thoughts in response to simple questions.

Exactly. The one guy on here that claims to be a scientist is a perfect example. I just skim past his long winded gibberish. Fortunately I live in a red state where these ppl are treated like the quacks they are although there's still a lot of low IQ types still wearing masks. Some are even wearing N95s ( good little sheeps)...I just smh

 

[RU Husky]

https://www.startribune.com/university-of-minnesota-ends-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/600144468/

"The university said that face coverings will still be required at indoor events."

 

[bac2therac]

"The university said that face coverings will still be required at indoor events."

which is quite comical still at this point, however I doubt it will be enforced the way it is at RU

 

[bac2therac]

also lets note how comical it is that all these blue states politicians are dropping mask mandates, restrictions and talking about natural immunity....really proves it was never about science but all about political science since summer of 2020 when we knew everything we needed to know about covid

 

[RU848789]

Exactly. The one guy on here that claims to be a scientist is a perfect example. I just skim past his long winded gibberish. Fortunately I live in a red state where these ppl are treated like the quacks they are although there's still a lot of low IQ types still wearing masks. Some are even wearing N95s ( good little sheeps)...I just smh

Would you like to compare scientific credentials? Didn't think so. Did you not read all of the predictions I made which came true regarding COVID, especially with regard to their impact on RU sports, where I've been right on everything? I'm sure you didn't, because you wouldn't make such a dumb post otherwise.

 

[AZBlues]

also lets note how comical it is that all these blue states politicians are dropping mask mandates, restrictions and talking about natural immunity....really proves it was never about science but all about political science since summer of 2020 when we knew everything we needed to know about covid

It's hard to understand how certain individuals keep refusing to acknowledge that covid science is an ever changing entity, because as the disease changes and more data and evidence become available during the course of the disease, the decisions about what's best for the public must change. That's the way it works, and the way it should work.

Some of you guys keep comparing decisions that were made earlier in the pandemic (when there were different and apparently more dangerous but somewhat less infectious strains of the virus present, and when we had different evidence available to try to determine the best ways to minimize severe illness and death), to decisions made today when the properties of the virus are different, disease treatment options are different, and when risks are different because of those differences and because of changes in people's immunity due to vaccines, prior illness, etc. Virus behavior and timelines differ in different geographical areas too, so comparing Covid mitigation strategies in one area to those in another area at any given time isn't always a good comparison.

Anyway, a refusal to improvise, adapt, and overcome (Thanks Clint Eastwood) as the disease characteristics and evidence changed and more data became available would be similar to Ohio State's coach designing a game plan against RU that was based on double teaming Geo all game by leaving Paul Mulcahy open, because Paul shot 5-26 from the floor and 0-6 from 3 in Rutgers' first 3 games... Things change, including the performances of certain RU players as well as the properties of the virus and the medical evidence available to us, so adaptations need to be made to best deal with them as we go along.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

also lets note how comical it is that all these blue states politicians are dropping mask mandates, restrictions and talking about natural immunity....really proves it was never about science but all about political science since summer of 2020 when we knew everything we needed to know about covid

Definitely not true, dummy.

 

[zappaa]

Definitely not true, Bac

Fixed it for ya

 

[RU Husky]

also lets note how comical it is that all these blue states politicians are dropping mask mandates, restrictions and talking about natural immunity....really proves it was never about science but all about political science since summer of 2020 when we knew everything we needed to know about covid

If only our President (you know the only person who represents both blue and red state alike) in the spring and summer of 2020 showed any kind of leadership we might have avoided more deaths. Leadership from the top down. You are right; it was all about politics. 900,000 and counting

 

[AZBlues]

Would you like to compare scientific credentials? Didn't think so. Did you not read all of the predictions I made which came true regarding COVID, especially with regard to their impact on RU sports, where I've been right on everything? I'm sure you didn't, because you wouldn't make such a dumb post otherwise.

RU848789, regardless of whether your posts are long or not, I appreciate your often valuable input and the time you put in to provide detailed information, despite not necessarily being a Taylor Swift fan. (smile)

I'm not talking about anyone in particular here, but we have to understand that some of the people in here who always skim past your posts have no choice but to skim past them, because the post content is generally way over their heads and much of the vocabulary is probably new to them. (Not that there's anything wrong with that...)

 

[bac2therac]

It's hard to understand how certain individuals keep refusing to acknowledge that covid science is an ever changing entity, because as the disease changes and more data and evidence become available during the course of the disease, the decisions about what's best for the public must change. That's the way it works, and the way it should work.

Some of you guys keep comparing decisions that were made earlier in the pandemic (when there were different and apparently more dangerous but somewhat less infectious strains of the virus present, and when we had different evidence available to try to determine the best ways to minimize severe illness and death), to decisions made today when the properties of the virus are different, disease treatment options are different, and when risks are different because of those differences and because of changes in people's immunity due to vaccines, prior illness, etc. Virus behavior and timelines differ in different geographical areas too, so comparing Covid mitigation strategies in one area to those in another area at any given time isn't always a good comparison.

Anyway, a refusal to improvise, adapt, and overcome (Thanks Clint Eastwood) as the disease characteristics and evidence changed and more data became available would be similar to Ohio State's coach designing a game plan against RU that was based on double teaming Geo all game by leaving Paul Mulcahy open, because Paul shot 5-26 from the floor and 0-6 from 3 in Rutgers' first 3 games... Things change, including the performances of certain RU players as well as the properties of the virus and the medical evidence available to us, so adaptations need to be made to best deal with them as we go along.

Nothing changed recently that we didn't know about before..period

We scared people into masking outdoors 2 years into this when they are virtually no harm

Political science is everything yet its amazing to see some still refuse to admit they were wrong

 

[bac2therac]

If only our President (you know the only person who represents both blue and red state alike) in the spring and summer of 2020 showed any kind of leadership we might have avoided more deaths. Leadership from the top down. You are right; it was all about politics. 900,000 and counting

Lol sure..more deaths under Uncle Peas with a vaccine

 

[Joey Bags]

also lets note how comical it is that all these blue states politicians are dropping mask mandates, restrictions and talking about natural immunity....really proves it was never about science but all about political science since summer of 2020 when we knew everything we needed to know about covid

It’s pathetic that up until recent political polling the US was the lone western nation whose public health authorities adopted a 300 year regressive stance on infectious diseases (no such thing as immunity acquired through infection).

The EU has allowed recovered individuals to be part of their 2G and 3G protocols.

 

[bac2therac]

Definitely not true, dummy.

What a sad day for the covid huggers

 

[fsg2_rivals]

Nothing changed recently that we didn't know about before..period

We scared people into masking outdoors 2 years into this when they are virtually no harm

Political science is everything yet its amazing to see some still refuse to admit they were wrong

So we haven't learned anything new in a year and a half, the virus hasn't evolved multiple times, and we haven't seen countless shifts in policy? Wow, that is news!!

And no one was "scared into masking outdoors." In fact, during the exact time period you're talking about, you made a whole post about how people weren't wearing mask at the beach.

 

[bac2therac]

Pretty much yeah..we know exactly who is effected

 

[bac2therac]

So we haven't learned anything new in a year and a half, the virus hasn't evolved multiple times, and we haven't seen countless shifts in policy? Wow, that is news!!

And no one was "scared into masking outdoors." In fact, during the exact time period you're talking about, you made a whole post about how people weren't wearing mask at the beach.

I guess you didnt see nyc

 

[AZBlues]

If only our President (you know the only person who represents both blue and red state alike) in the spring and summer of 2020 showed any kind of leadership we might have avoided more deaths. Leadership from the top down. You are right; it was all about politics. 900,000 and counting

Careful.. A few people probably won't be able to determine which president you're referring to and will inadvertently assume that you and your post are supporting their cause...

 

[AZBlues]

Pretty much yeah..we know exactly who is effected

Interesting Bac. But do we know exactly who is affected?

 

[fsg2_rivals]

What a sad day for the covid huggers

Lol, I moved on way before you did, have taken more plane and road trips than you will in the next five years, and have let Covid have as little impact on my life as possible. I adapted, whereas you cried and played victim EVERY. STEP. OF. THE. WAY.

Only one of the two of us hugging Covid at this late stage is you. Move on and enjoy yourself.

 

[Kbee3]

Lol, I moved on way before you did, have taken more plane and road trips than you will in the next five years, and have let Covid have as little impact on my life as possible. I adapted, whereas you cried and played victim EVERY. STEP. OF. THE. WAY.

That's Bac's forte.
BTW, my wife's cousin in Pennsylvania....her best friend growing up....just died from covid. She was one of those caught up in the anti-vax, anti-mask nonsense. Her death sorta crystalized what I was thinking lately about the knucklehead, know-nothings. Not worth my time or energy to engage with such stupidity.
They're just so embarrassing.

 

[AZBlues]

Nothing changed recently that we didn't know about before..period

Huh??? Bac, when it comes to sports you seem to be intelligent and logical, but the comment above seems to be one of the most uninformed, illogical, and misleading statements in the thread. Just sayin'...

 

[Kbee3]

but the comment above seems to be one of the most uninformed, illogical, and misleading statements in the thread. Just sayin'...

That's Bac's forte.

 

[AZBlues]

To get away from debating for a while, I have a question about the RU pep band that people have sometimes mentioned as having a double standard regarding masks... Since I can't attend games to see for myself, do any of the band members use bell covers on their instruments to help decrease the risk of covid transmission somewhat? I'm asking because some bands do.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

That's Bac's forte.
BTW, my wife's cousin in Pennsylvania....her best friend growing up....just died from covid. She was one of those caught up in the anti-vax, anti-mask nonsense. Her death sorta crystalized what I was thinking lately about the knucklehead, know-nothings. Not worth my time or energy to engage with such stupidity.
They're just so embarrassing.

I liked your post before you added that last bit.

In 50 lifetimes, I'll never understand that mentality. Afraid of possible effects of a vaccine but not of a new novel virus that's proven to have longterm effects in some.