If you’ve met one claim-to-be-a-prophet, you’ve met them all.
God is Good! And so random too.
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If you’ve met one claim-to-be-a-prophet, you’ve met them all.
You’re good. Hell doesn’t exist, either. It certainly isn’t Biblical. Hell (Hades) was added in as more Greeks and believers in their gods joined Christianity and brought their beliefs into the fold.
Jesus preached on Hell dozens of times in the Bible.
Jesus Said More about Hell Than Anyone in the Bible
The word wrath is important for understanding what Jesus meant by hell. Hell is not simply the natural consequence of rejecting God.
www.crossway.org
And, for the record, he was crucified for claiming he was the king of the Jews. The charge was put on the cross to mock him.
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It really is hard to keep track of all the “stories.”
It's always a little amusing to see the "non-biblical" theme/argument emerge. Sure, there are aspects of Christian doctrine that are not literally within the books of the bible (setting aside the fact that the "books of the bible" are themselves something that took a while to agree on), but they're also things that tend to have been thought about for a couple of hundred years before acceptance, based both on what's in the bible and how people actually worshiped and lived. Most of the Christian tradition is not, in fact, sola scriptura, but is also 'lex orandi, lex credendi'.
Separately, but I suppose in that vein, I have to say that one of the more hilarious things that absolutely slays me in religious movies and other media is when attempts are made to write modern dialogue around biblical texts, usually to make some aspect of the story 'more approachable'. For my money, the all time best is still from the Ten Commandments, when Israel is fleeing Egypt, and one of the ladies says "Where are we going?" and another excitedly replies "I don't know, but I hear there's milk and honey there!" More recently, "The Chosen" has had numerous similar examples, while doubling down with hilarious anachronisms. For example, Mary Magdalene has a "job" as a hairdresser at a salon, and one evening, when Peter sits down with a big sigh for dinner, his female companion says something to the effect of "Tough day at work today?" As if hair salons (or for that matter, the postindustrial concept of a "work day") even existed.
Separately, but I suppose in that vein, I have to say that one of the more hilarious things that absolutely slays me in religious movies and other media is when attempts are made to write modern dialogue around biblical texts, usually to make some aspect of the story 'more approachable'. For my money, the all time best is still from the Ten Commandments, when Israel is fleeing Egypt, and one of the ladies says "Where are we going?" and another excitedly replies "I don't know, but I hear there's milk and honey there!" More recently, "The Chosen" has had numerous similar examples, while doubling down with hilarious anachronisms. For example, Mary Magdalene has a "job" as a hairdresser at a salon, and one evening, when Peter sits down with a big sigh for dinner, his female companion says something to the effect of "Tough day at work today?" As if hair salons (or for that matter, the postindustrial concept of a "work day") even existed.
Zeus was a little fuckboi. If He created man in His image, then I’m inclined to think Zeus is more real.
The Jewish Pharasees accused him of claiming to be the Messiah/king. Pilate's question was essentially, "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus didn’t exactly deny it either. So sure, the sign was intended to mock him, but the claim that led to the crucifixion was absolutely tied to his claim of kingship.
Mark 14:61–64: The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One. Jesus answers affirmatively and speaks of the Son of Man at God's right hand. The high priest tears his clothes and says, "You have heard his blasphemy." They condemn him as deserving death.
John 10:30–33: Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." The Jews pick up stones. When Jesus asks why, they answer: "because you, being a man, make yourself God."
I agree God of the Gaps, so to speak, isn't difinitive, but it is thought provoking, no? But that's not really what I'm arguing. I'm asking a more fundamental question, why is there something rather than nothing? Science is incredibly good at explaining how the universe works, but IMO "how does it work?" isn't necessarily the same question as why does anything exist at all? I don't claim science proves God. I just don't think "science hasn't demonstrated God" is the same as demonstratng there is no rational basis for believing in one.Never denied it.
Problem is there's not one of those that requires a creator. It's all philosophical and the philosophy - such as it is - is that what we don't yet understand is somehow evidence that some god is responsible. That god was responsible for lightning and earthquakes and stars moving and fire and everything else at some point. That god has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. That's why I'm willing to concede the possibility of a creator who set everything in motion but has no impact on the workings of that creation. That's the only god that science can't touch.
No he didn't. The term is never mentioned. Sheol is not Hell. Gehenna is not Hell. Burning bodies in fire is not Hell. Leaving bodies in the grave in darkness is not Hell. What IS Hell? Hades' underworld...Jesus preached on Hell dozens of times in the Bible.
Jesus Said More about Hell Than Anyone in the Bible
The word wrath is important for understanding what Jesus meant by hell. Hell is not simply the natural consequence of rejecting God.
Jesus taught that he would return and preside over a paradise right here on Earth. The righteous dead would be resurrected and live there. Those who were alive when it happened would never know death. Those who weren't worthy would stay dead or die and stay dead forever. And he said it would happen in the time of the generation currently living.
For Jews, the timeline was horizontal. A time of misery and life -> apocalypse -> Eden on Earth for the righteous and everlasting death for the unworthy. It was the Greek vertical view that took over Christianity. Gods above and the underworld below.
The Jews had no concept of a Heaven above or a Hell below... they didn't really have a concept of the soul as being distinct from the body. Souls weren't rasied from the grave...people were. The entire idea of a postmortem judgement of souls that had left their bodies to be sorted based on good and evil came from the Greek tradition. It predates Christianity by centuries and was woven into the Bible as it was translated. Into Greek.
Jesus used metaphors to describe Hell in a way that humans could understand like Gehenna.
Many saints and even atheists have experienced Hell.
You should stop reading Bart Ehrman...he's not that great of a scholar.
Here's ex-atheist college professor Howard Storm.
I’m mostly motivated by the values of Christ. I think those lessons are the best way for humanity to conduct ourselves. I also believe there is a high probability of an intelligence in the universe far above ours (that for all intents and purposes would appear to be God like).
I am not motivated at all by hellfire and brimstone BS. So while I call myself a Christian, many Christians would say I am not one. I don’t really care what they think.
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That is how I see it. I don’t believe we are damned just because we didn’t say some words in the right way. I am much more interested in living my life according to the lessons in the sermon on the Mount (although I fail often).
All that "messiah" means is that he claimed he was a divinely appointed king - not that he was God. That is the quite literal translation of the word. Any divinity he would have would flow from that. And, obviously, it was blasphemous to make that claim. Hence, that is the charge that was recorded on the cross.
John is the only Gospel where Jesus makes any other claim and it was the last one written. By that time, Gentiles had become the predominant force in an emerging Christianity. The Gentiles brought their own traditions into Christianity and embedded them in John. Those traditions included a Heaven above, a Hell below, a soul distinct from the body, and a Jesus who claimed to be the God of the Bible. None of that appears in the earlier synoptic Gospels.
The Bible is not a history book. It doesn't record what actually happened. It does record the beliefs of the people at the time the various parts were written which goes a loooong way to explaining why it's so scattershot... and why the Biblical God is more than a little psychotic.
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I have no problem with metaphors. The entire book is metaphors. What you can't do is claim "this was a metaphor but that one is spot-on truth". That's just you imposing your own beliefs.
Then refute the points made.You should stop reading Bart Ehrman...he's not that great of a scholar.
And I could link to dozens of ex-Christian scholars. Like Ehrman.
You're more than welcome. You're also more than welcome to tell your fellow Christians to
stop trying to impose their beliefs on everybody else. The day that happens is the day I stop caring about that particular religion.
My standard is "I am sorry for your loss."
But even that can piss people off some times. Why are you sorry, you had nothing to do with it.
It isn't much of a loss, I hated her
Blah blah blah
For close friends or family I sometimes skip straight to "I am here for whatever I can do for you."
Navigating your own grief is hard enough, navigating someone else's is impossible.
I'm hurt my mid 40's and haven't hit that with my friends yet, but I am guessing it will start soon and when the dam breaks, it will flood.
This. Why choose to believe in a petty, vengeful god?
Bingo.
The god I choose to believe in doesn't require the pomp and circumstance. Doesn't need me to go into a special building or require me to pledge my everlasting soul to her/him.
My god will judge me by my heart and by my actions.
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Heaven, Hell, and Catholic Purgatory are all pretty good examples of Athens meeting Jerusalem, outside of the biblical texts.
It's probably fair to say that at least some concept of heaven is reflected in the Bible. But accepting that (without necessarily defining it or building a whole soteriology around it), it does raise certain questions. The first of which, of course, is, what if you don't make it? It is actually kind of necessary to answer that. Which of course starts a discussion of Hell which has ranged from nothingness, to torment over the years to something like really bad, atomized, ennui. But then that begets other questions, like, what about all of the good people who came before, or weren't/aren't exposed to Christian opportunities, or those (almost all) of us who do an "OK" job but are ultimately (to quote Dan Tyminski) "god fearing heathens"? Surely they're/we're not just eternally ******, right, because what sense would that make? Behold, I give you purgatory (which Mrs. A. always visualizes as a sort of quiet waiting room in your aunt's house with old furniture and kneelers - the opportunity for perfection (in the security interest sense). And interestingly enough, forms another part of the response to the whole "unjust God" thingy that got us all started down this rathole.
It's probably fair to say that at least some concept of heaven is reflected in the Bible. But accepting that (without necessarily defining it or building a whole soteriology around it), it does raise certain questions. The first of which, of course, is, what if you don't make it? It is actually kind of necessary to answer that. Which of course starts a discussion of Hell which has ranged from nothingness, to torment over the years to something like really bad, atomized, ennui. But then that begets other questions, like, what about all of the good people who came before, or weren't/aren't exposed to Christian opportunities, or those (almost all) of us who do an "OK" job but are ultimately (to quote Dan Tyminski) "god fearing heathens"? Surely they're/we're not just eternally ******, right, because what sense would that make? Behold, I give you purgatory (which Mrs. A. always visualizes as a sort of quiet waiting room in your aunt's house with old furniture and kneelers - the opportunity for perfection (in the security interest sense). And interestingly enough, forms another part of the response to the whole "unjust God" thingy that got us all started down this rathole.
Well stated. Very, very well stated.
It will, and it'll suck. Just gotta do what it is you (we) can do to help and be supportive of others.
Heaven in the Bible:
Second Coming – Jesus returns, defeats evil, resurrects the righteous.
Millennium (1000 years) – Christ reigns on earth with the saints.
Final Rebellion & Judgment – Satan released, wicked resurrected, final judgment.
Eternal Kingdom – New earth created, saints reign with Christ forever.
No Heaven above. No Hell below. No souls independent of the bodies they inhabit. The wicked die and their bodies are burned rather than being buried. The righteous live on an Eden/Earth forever. No concept of eternal torment... the wicked just stay dead and miss out on the good stuff. Everything beyond that came from the Greek myths.
You post with supreme confidence...are you 100% certain that you're right about life after death?
It's in the Bible. My question would be why you choose to believe the imported Greek myths that were never part of early Christianity?
Nah... never mind. You're not 100% certain, either. If you're citing Pascal's Wager, be aware that it demonstrates not one thing about the existence of a Christian god. The same wager could be stated for ANY religion. Are you covering all of your bases?
You have the right to believe anything you like as long as you don't try to force it on anyone else. And when someone - as in the OP - credits their god for surviving a bear attack, I'm going to point out the fallacy of that claim.
Because Jesus said we should build our treasures in Heaven and not in this world.
I've studied many religions and philosophies and Jesus is the only religious figure that says He will take humans to Heaven. That's unique.
Also, since you brought up Pascal, you should read his writings because he did write 200 pages about why Christianity is the one true religion.
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*sigh* He never said he would “take humans to Heaven”. Heaven would be right here on Earth. Jesus was supposed to come down to Earth to rule over it. The righteous would be resurrected and live in that Heaven. Right here. They wouldn’t be disembodied souls - they would be themselves perfected.
The Greeks thought that was nuts. Who would want to be stuck in a creaky old human body for eternity? THEY had already developed the idea of souls hundreds of years before Jesus … of an upper realm of the gods… a lower realm of punishment. They just brought that over when they converted. Plato wrote hundreds of pages on that so maybe you actually worship Zeus without knowing it.
*sigh* He never said he would “take humans to Heaven”. Heaven would be right here on Earth. Jesus was supposed to come down to Earth to rule over it. The righteous would be resurrected and live in that Heaven. Right here. They wouldn’t be disembodied souls - they would be themselves perfected.
The Greeks thought that was nuts. Who would want to be stuck in a creaky old human body for eternity? THEY had already developed the idea of souls hundreds of years before Jesus … of an upper realm of the gods… a lower realm of punishment. They just brought that over when they converted. Plato wrote hundreds of pages on that so maybe you actually worship Zeus without knowing it.
I do think that the Earth will turn into a type of paradise...that may not be that far off.
Like I've said, you're free to believe whatever you like. Recognize they are your beliefs and, quite literally, yours alone. Avoid the hypocrisy - as in the op - of claiming YOU are favored by your god over others in the same situation. I'm fine with that.
Billions of people believe what I believe...it's hardly unique to me. I don't believe I'm favored.
Have a nice Labor Day weekend.
No, they don't. Not one of them. Every single person constructs their own reality from the Bible and every one of them diverges from the next in some way. Claiming you have billions of people in lockstep simply because they claim to be Christians is laughable. Are you a Christian nationalist? They are among those billions. Are you a Mormon? They are Christians. You can't even make that claim for the Catholic Church. Are there Catholics that claim the Mass must be in Latin? Heck, there are Catholics that support female clergy... birth control... who believe that Adam and Eve is literal history and the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old.
No problem with Tommy. He valued reason. He just employed it very ineffectively. And, unfortunately for you, his arguments are strictly deist in nature. They contain zero evidence for the Christian god.
Oh wow.
Did you read the Summa?
You didn't read "Pensees" by Pascal and strawmanned his arguments.
Also, the video I linked showed you what he experienced personally and why he stopped writing.
You should read the texts.
Begin with part 1:
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LOL... those are Biblically based arguments. There is absolutely zero evidence for a "Trinity" absent the Bible and there isn't much even with it. And his "six days" are presented differently in the Bible itself.Oh wow.
Did you read the Summa?
You didn't read "Pensees" by Pascal and strawmanned his arguments.
Also, the video I linked showed you what he experienced personally and why he stopped writing.
You should read the texts.
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Home
St. Thomas Aquinas' entire masterpiece, in an easy-to-use formatwww.newadvent.org
What he "experienced personally" falls under the purview of anecdote and, as such, is useless as proof of anything.
Again, you should read the text...he spends hundreds of pages arguing for Jesus, angels, demons, Heaven, Hell, the sacraments, etc. which disprove your claim that he was only arguing for deism.
He can argue until he's blue in the face. I can argue incessantly for leprechauns. He presents precisely zero evidence for the existence of the god of the Bible without invoking the Bible.
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