Cal needs to change his philosophy

[kyblue22]

I'm sorry many will hate me for this thread but it's true. 5 #1 classes and 1 championship. Who knows for next year but I'm not optimistic. To win title you must have some seasoned STRONG unpperclassmen. We went and got Cal to win championships. Not regular season games, not SEC titles, and certainly not to be known as the NBA farm club. 25 or whatever pros under Cal and again 1 championship! You can't win 38 straight then lose that should never, ever happen! I love Cal as a coach and as our ambassador but I do not like his recruiting and retainment practices. I've been all for them until now. No one cares if you get to elite 8, final four or the NC game, they care if you win it all. That's what people hang their hat on. Cal man you are here for the fans ever much as you are here for the athletes.

If you're not going to win championships with the one and done philosophy I encourage a change for the fans. it is frustrating for our fans to not get to know these kids. To have guys 1 or 2 years and watch them leave is honestly getting old. Its time for a change. It's time to bring in more 3 and 4 year players. It's time to encourage a kid like Tyler to stay and graduate as a hedge against the wall he may be up against in the NBA. Life is not all about money, yet the message Cal is sending to kids like my son is, college is good for a year or two then go out and get yours. K, Ole Roy even Clappy get kids of the caliber of the guys we lose to stay. What happened to the value of the college experience? 10 years ago all of these guys would not have left the way they have from UK. Cal shoves them out the door for the next group and us the fans who pay the cost of the program do not get to see a 3-4 year progression of the player. We see nothing. Murray and skal bam all of 9 mos. and likely gone.

As a lifelong fan I remember getting my cats pause yearbook every year and reading and getting to know the players. this solidified my love for the cats, not championships at the time "early mid 80s" but the experience of opening that yearbook every year and then letting the season play out feeling like I knew who I was rooting for. That is gone. Last night my son was very bummed after the loss he's 12. I thought it was because we lost...he was in part but what bummed him out the most was that it was Tyler Ulis last game and he only got to see him at UK for 2 yrs. a 5'9" player. 5 #1 recruiting classes, 1 championship and we don't get a chance to see team progression. A reboot rather every season. I don't like it

I am sure glad that recruiting is not up to you. Go get those best player out there Coach Cal.

 

[shutzhund]

My last post in this thread. He pushed me on specific system a coach who has a better system without a doubt it's K. I can't stand coach K but his success has been 2 titles in 2010 and 2015. He keeps players around generally and has two championships in 5 years bc of it. Those are just facts

Last post? You must be getting dizzy from spinning the truth to fit your own personal agenda for hating Cal. Last post? WONDERFUL.

 

[CatsIndy2010]

His philosophy is no better than any other philosophy, it boils down to the implementation of it and how well players respond to his philosophy.

You know, there must be a reason that 64 teams battle for the one trophy at the end of the season? Its rare to find a program unless your looking at the early days of UCLA......that can consistently win all the way to the final game. I think Coach Cal has always had some great ideas every year. But times have changed, its harder to compete in this climate of money and fame. The kids wanting to make the nba are being influenced by so much stuff......it doesn't compare to those early days of college ball.

 

[David Rice]

I'm not sure I understand the "getting to know players" argument either.

I know one thing......I'm gonna remember alot of these guys that played one year before I remember some guys that been here all 4

I rather remember DeMarcus Cousins then Sheray Thomas whom I'm pretty sure is a nice guy but not a good player.

 

[Goingfor9]

I am on your side somewhat here, but please consider this...if Cal "wronged" these guys as you are saying, where is the backlash from these kids as they all seem to be loyal to Cal and the program ,so maybe Cal is actually giving his imput and they are making the decisions? I know that I read that he was surprised the twins came back and that Dakari's people were the ones that pushed him to the draft against Cal's advice...but, you are like me in that you are a little envious of the control K seems to have on his players

I don't think cal has wronged them in anyway. As a matter of fact they are probably feeling a measure success in the short run.

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

I rather remember DeMarcus Cousins then Sheray Thomas whom I'm pretty sure is a nice guy but not a good player.

Exactly.

 

[Double Tay]

I'm putting you on ignore bc number 1 I know who you are and I know what kind of a person you are. This isn't about UK or cal it's about all the crap you deal with in your life. You and DT are miserable people who look to rip folks in order to feel better about yourself. Your self righteousness is not becoming and I know you have no clue what cal tells his recruits and players. Adios once I find the ignore switch. One day we will run into each other and I bet you will back off your assholish nature. That's not a threat that's just saying that you hide behind a message forum. In real life your terrified to bully and harass someone.

- unstable -

Gotta love throwing out an opinion, having multiple people refute those opinions, and then whining that everyone is "bullying" and arguing with him/her. Sac up man. It's a message board.

 

[sluggercatfan]

I don't think cal has wronged them in anyway. As a matter of fact they are probably feeling a measure success in the short run.

I doubt that because you can't tell me that they are not all disappointed in not making it to the league I just don't see where any of them blame Cal and if they are they sure don't show it as they are all still all over supporting Cal and the program...l don't really care for this , but it is NOT Cal's fault as he has advocated many times for the NBA TO CHANGE ITS POLICY that allows these kids to do this...now I don't like some of Cal's coaching techniques, but hey I'm 65 and I'm rolling with the flow at this moment that is all we can do...GOCATS!!!

 

[.S&C.]

You are off base. @GOING FOR #9 , who has criticized Cal since day 1 and hates the OAD, wants Cal to recruit less talented players so they would stay longer.

@Double Tay is asking a perfectly sensible question that 9 refuses to answer.

Which OAD's next year would he replace with longer term players and which longer terms players would these be?


His argument has zero basis and he refuses to answer any questions on points he pulled out of his own butt...

That's too bad. I get not agreeing with the philosophy 100%, but cal saved this program. No two questions about it.

@answer1313 some posters are older and enjoy getting to know players. Even younger people enjoy that. How could you possibly fault them for that? I'm not one way or the other, but I guess I do enjoy seeing guys hang around if they can.

There's two sides to every coin people. Some of this isn't a big deal.

 

[hootervillearnolds]

As I see it there are three methods to build a program that will be top five in 5 out of every 7 years.

To understand my theory I will first define what I call 2,3,4and 5 star players.

5* are guys that are 70% OAD. 20% two and done. And 10% career guys in college that either weren't that good or liked college
4* players are 20% OAD and evenly split between four year guys or those that go after two thru transfer or to NBA.
3* and 2* are for the most part four year players with maybe 25% leaving early because they turn out to be great or they leave or get hurt.

So with that defined.

Method one is what MSU does under Izzo and Crean as his protege wants to do. You end up between graduates and exits with five schollys a year. You give 1 to 3 to 4* or 5* guys. And 2 to 4 to 2* or 3* players. With luck every year or so one of your 2* or 3* develops into Draymond Green or Denzel Valentine or Victor Olidipo and you get 3-4 years from him. So you end up most years with two older studs (IU this year had yogi and Williams and hoped for Blackmon) and you might get a 4* or 5* frosh like Bryant also. Izzo teams are like this almost every year. Crean about one in 3 or 4 years. The bad news on this is that you do wind up with some crappy years when your one hamburger AA is not that good or you lose a couple of 3* guys. And it takes two years to recover from that.

Method two is to get three or four 4* and 5* players and one or two lower guys each year. But never are they all 5*. That way there are always very good upper class men (3 or 4 or them) on tour roster. UNC Duke and Kansas do this. About once every four years you get a class that under acheives and keep fewer good ones around. The good news is it only takes one year to recover. Duke and UNC both had recent down years closely followed by NC seasons

Method three is UK with Cal. You get 4-6 5* (or high 4*) each year and have 2-4 contributing guys that stay in the program and 2-5 non contributors that are still there. The main down side is maybe Two out of seven years your class is not full of 5* players and/or some of them really aren't 5* (skal and Briscoe). The good news is the next year your fans can be back to hoping for 40-0.

My point though is that if you ever quit this method three it will take at least two of not three years to be a success with either method two or one. That is because when you go to those schemes you have to have the upper class men in place.

So be wary of what you ask for. If Cal were to switch away from recruiting a bunch of OAD and go with a UNC approach or I'd your next coach is Izzo you could wind up being 2 or 3 years with mediocrity before things get back to normal.

 

[.S&C.]

So you are just another one of the dumbasses that think Cal pushes them out even if the NBA doesnt want them?

Bledsoe and Orton were not OAD's coming in. You think Cal didnt want Teague back? Who was our PG that next year?

Cal was surprised Archie went, he said he was upset that a couple left last season.

He was shocked Booker improved to the level he id.

You have no idea what Cal says to these kids.

Your assumptions are based upon your own ignorance.

The more you talk the dumber you sound.

Duke has room on their bandwagon, jump on.

But be prepared, every OAD they have had since 2011 has left as well..

Cal does not push these kids out. I get why people might think that but you're right it's not true. I'm not sure what it is, but something about his methods make kids think they can leave the second someone mentions their name a a potential future pro. Maybe it's because he fully supports that decision and most coaches don't (all really).

This thread wow.

 

[.S&C.]

As I see it there are three methods to build a program that will be top five in 5 out of every 7 years.

To understand my theory I will first define what I call 2,3,4and 5 star players.

5* are guys that are 70% OAD. 20% two and done. And 10% career guys in college that either weren't that good or liked college
4* players are 20% OAD and evenly split between four year guys or those that go after two thru transfer or to NBA.
3* and 2* are for the most part four year players with maybe 25% leaving early because they turn out to be great or they leave or get hurt.

So with that defined.

Method one is what MSU does under Izzo and Crean as his protege wants to do. You end up between graduates and exits with five schollys a year. You give 1 to 3 to 4* or 5* guys. And 2 to 4 to 2* or 3* players. With luck every year or so one of your 2* or 3* develops into Draymond Green or Denzel Valentine or Victor Olidipo and you get 3-4 years from him. So you end up most years with two older studs (IU this year had yogi and Williams and hoped for Blackmon) and you might get a 4* or 5* frosh like Bryant also. Izzo teams are like this almost every year. Crean about one in 3 or 4 years. The bad news on this is that you do wind up with some crappy years when your one hamburger AA is not that good or you lose a couple of 3* guys. And it takes two years to recover from that.

Method two is to get three or four 4* and 5* players and one or two lower guys each year. But never are they all 5*. That way there are always very good upper class men (3 or 4 or them) on tour roster. UNC Duke and Kansas do this. About once every four years you get a class that under acheives and keep fewer good ones around. The good news is it only takes one year to recover. Duke and UNC both had recent down years closely followed by NC seasons

Method three is UK with Cal. You get 4-6 5* (or high 4*) each year and have 2-4 contributing guys that stay in the program and 2-5 non contributors that are still there. The main down side is maybe Two out of seven years your class is not full of 5* players and/or some of them really aren't 5* (skal and Briscoe). The good news is the next year your fans can be back to hoping for 40-0.

My point though is that if you ever quit this method three it will take at least two of not three years to be a success with either method two or one. That is because when you go to those schemes you have to have the upper class men in place.

So be wary of what you ask for. If Cal were to switch away from recruiting a bunch of OAD and go with a UNC approach or I'd your next coach is Izzo you could wind up being 2 or 3 years with mediocrity before things get back to normal.

No offesne, but I'm not reading all that, because I do not need to know what an Indiana Hoosier fan thinks about recruiting. Your program really has nose dived over the years. Become relevant (winning more than a second round game) sometime soon, and maybe we might listen to how you feel a program should be built. Listening to an Indiana basketball fan discuss program building blocks to Kentucky fans would be like Alabama listening to Duke football about how to build their roster.

Yes, you've nearly fallen that far.

 

[.S&C.]

What players in the last 3 years has come back at Duke even though they were clear first round picks?

none. But everyone knows K was pushing it.

We will see what Allen does this season when they get put out. I'm hoping they don't make it to the final four. It might be enough to make him wan to come back and K will be pushing it.

 

[hootervillearnolds]

No offesne, but I'm not reading all that, because I do not need to know what an Indiana Hoosier fan thinks about recruiting. Your program really has nose dived over the years. Become relevant (winning more than a second round game) sometime soon, and maybe we might listen to how you feel a program should be built. Listening to an Indiana basketball fan discuss program building blocks to Kentucky fans would be like Alabama listening to Duke football about how to build their roster.

Yes, you've nearly fallen that far.

So IU ADs make two straight coaching errors in David and Samson and that makes IU fans ignorant on basketball?

Ok, if you say so

BTW Duke gets to more bowl games these days that IU or UK. I'm just saying

 

[.S&C.]

So IU ADs make two straight coaching errors in David and Samson and that makes IU fans ignorant on basketball?

Ok, if you say so

BTW Duke gets to more bowl games these days that IU or UK. I'm just saying

No, Indiana fans, by nature, are ignorant to basketball these days. You've watched total crap for a generation or more, so yea, not interested in your take at all.

Duke football makes crap toilet bowls in the ACC. Not impressed in the least.

UK football historically >>>>>>>>>>>> Indiana and Duke.

So there's that.

 

[Bkocats]

interesting K was brought up
what about the other coach who recruits one and dones, and convinces a few to stay - Bill Self?
he must have more titles than Cal, too

 

[hootervillearnolds]

No, Indiana fans, by nature, are ignorant to basketball these days. You've watched total crap for a generation or more, so yea, not interested in your take at all.

Duke football makes crap toilet bowls in the ACC. Not impressed in the least.

UK football historically >>>>>>>>>>>> Indiana and Duke.

So there's that.

By the way I didn't take offense to your comments. I expect abuse because I am guest on your board and appreciate being able to comment here. Trash talking at me is fine and expected. This is the Internet in 2016.

I just disagree that IU fans don't know basketball nor recruiting.

UK has the best recruiter ever. I can plainly see that. And I have said in several posts that I respect him and see him as a far better choice for UK that I thought he would be. He wouldn't have fit at IU. But the again bear Bryant didn't fit at UK and I am not sure John wooden would have either.

I am simply stating there are other paths to success that have been trod, and as an IU fan I see Crean trying to take the one his mentor has taken to build a top five program. He isn't there yet but I am hopeful.

 

[brianpoe]

As I see it there are three methods to build a program that will be top five in 5 out of every 7 years.

To understand my theory I will first define what I call 2,3,4and 5 star players.

5* are guys that are 70% OAD. 20% two and done. And 10% career guys in college that either weren't that good or liked college
4* players are 20% OAD and evenly split between four year guys or those that go after two thru transfer or to NBA.
3* and 2* are for the most part four year players with maybe 25% leaving early because they turn out to be great or they leave or get hurt.

So with that defined.

Method one is what MSU does under Izzo and Crean as his protege wants to do. You end up between graduates and exits with five schollys a year. You give 1 to 3 to 4* or 5* guys. And 2 to 4 to 2* or 3* players. With luck every year or so one of your 2* or 3* develops into Draymond Green or Denzel Valentine or Victor Olidipo and you get 3-4 years from him. So you end up most years with two older studs (IU this year had yogi and Williams and hoped for Blackmon) and you might get a 4* or 5* frosh like Bryant also. Izzo teams are like this almost every year. Crean about one in 3 or 4 years. The bad news on this is that you do wind up with some crappy years when your one hamburger AA is not that good or you lose a couple of 3* guys. And it takes two years to recover from that.

Method two is to get three or four 4* and 5* players and one or two lower guys each year. But never are they all 5*. That way there are always very good upper class men (3 or 4 or them) on tour roster. UNC Duke and Kansas do this. About once every four years you get a class that under acheives and keep fewer good ones around. The good news is it only takes one year to recover. Duke and UNC both had recent down years closely followed by NC seasons

Method three is UK with Cal. You get 4-6 5* (or high 4*) each year and have 2-4 contributing guys that stay in the program and 2-5 non contributors that are still there. The main down side is maybe Two out of seven years your class is not full of 5* players and/or some of them really aren't 5* (skal and Briscoe). The good news is the next year your fans can be back to hoping for 40-0.

My point though is that if you ever quit this method three it will take at least two of not three years to be a success with either method two or one. That is because when you go to those schemes you have to have the upper class men in place.

So be wary of what you ask for. If Cal were to switch away from recruiting a bunch of OAD and go with a UNC approach or I'd your next coach is Izzo you could wind up being 2 or 3 years with mediocrity before things get back to normal.

Here is my issue with your post and the OP.

You guys really think that this is a strategy?

Cal is method 3, UNC Duke and KU are #2 and others #1... I have news for you and everyone else...

EVERY ONE OF THE TEAMS YOU MENTIONED RECRUITED EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WE SIGN.

K, Roy, Self would take them all as well.

Crean and the rest simply cannot get them.

It is so comical to see fans at IU, UL and UNC act as though they are above the OADs, yet take a glance at the offer sheets.

Trey Lyles, Teague - IU and UL would kill for them. We have fought Duke, Kansas, or UNC for every lottery pick we have had.


You really think Crean would say... well we have Giles, Tatum and Fox better slow down the superstars and grab some Tim Prillers to mix it up, tell Monk and Bolden thanks but not interested.....?


You cant get them like we can. No one can, and Duke is the only one remotely close to us.

Did Cal create an environment that OAD is acceptable and expected?

Yes.

Did that bite us in the *** on some kids leaving before they should?

Yes. But Cal didnt push them out, most of us, not the OP obviously, know which ones these are.

The culture brought the studs and hurts us with the borderline guys who would normally return.

Had the questionable kids had stayed we most likely have a couple more titles and no NIT season.



I prefer to be a title contender every year even if it means roster turnover every year. Because I know that coaches of these holier than thou fanbases would trade rosters (most seasons) in a heartbeat.

 

[hootervillearnolds]

Here is my issue with your post and the OP.

You guys really think that this is a strategy?

Cal is method 3, UNC Duke and KU are #2 and others #1... I have news for you and everyone else...

EVERY ONE OF THE TEAMS YOU MENTIONED RECRUITED EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WE SIGN.

K, Roy, Self would take them all as well.

Crean and the rest simply cannot get them.

It is so comical to see fans at IU, UL and UNC act as though they are above the OADs, yet take a glance at the offer sheets.

Trey Lyles, Teague - IU and UL would kill for them. We have fought Duke, Kansas, or UNC for every lottery pick we have had.


You really think Crean would say... well we have Giles, Tatum and Fox better slow down the superstars and grab some Tim Prillers to mix it up, tell Monk and Bolden thanks but not interested.....?


You cant get them like we can. No one can, and Duke is the only one remotely close to us.

Did Cal create an environment that OAD is acceptable and expected?

Yes.

Did that bite us in the *** on some kids leaving before they should?

Yes. But Cal didnt push them out, most of us, not the OP obviously, know which ones these are.

The culture brought the studs and hurts us with the borderline guys who would normally return.

Had the questionable kids had stayed we most likely have a couple more titles and no NIT season.



I prefer to be a title contender every year even if it means roster turnover every year. Because I know that coaches of these holier than thou fanbases would trade rosters (most seasons) in a heartbeat.

I can't disagree with anything you said.

But since Crean can't get what Cal gets there are other ways to build programs.

That is my point.

As I said I respect Cal and think he is the best recruiter ever.

But other programs show that you can win without having the best recruiter. And I hope Crean gets there and IU gives him the chance. I see some daylight.

But if IU makes another Davis or Samson mistake they are done for my lifetime. I am old dude.

 

[brianpoe]

I can't disagree with anything you said.

But since Crean can't get what Cal gets there are other ways to build programs.

That is my point.

As I said I respect Cal and think he is the best recruiter ever.

But other programs show that you can win without having the best recruiter. And I hope Crean gets there and IU gives him the chance. I see some daylight.

But if IU makes another Davis or Samson mistake they are done for my lifetime. I am old dude.

I appreciate your respectfulness. Just saying it is not Crean's or anyone else's "strategy" to NOT recruit and sign the best kids available, it is simply reality. Of course it works many, many times, UK is the aberration.

 

[MakinMusic_rivals]

Lose to Kentucky last weekend and the IU fan opinions change greatly with respect to Crean. You must be crazy to think we believe that YOU believe Crean is going anywhere with IU. He ran into one of the weakest Kentucky teams in the last 7 years. He won.....you are giddy like the other IU fan hanging around here. No need to think your on your way to another title anytime soon or ever for that matters. It simply takes the horses and even then it's extremely unlikely.

 

[.S&C.]

By the way I didn't take offense to your comments. I expect abuse because I am guest on your board and appreciate being able to comment here. Trash talking at me is fine and expected. This is the Internet in 2016.

I just disagree that IU fans don't know basketball nor recruiting.

UK has the best recruiter ever. I can plainly see that. And I have said in several posts that I respect him and see him as a far better choice for UK that I thought he would be. He wouldn't have fit at IU. But the again bear Bryant didn't fit at UK and I am not sure John wooden would have either.

I am simply stating there are other paths to success that have been trod, and as an IU fan I see Crean trying to take the one his mentor has taken to build a top five program. He isn't there yet but I am hopeful.

You would crawl over broken glass 200 yards for JVC to be your HC. You're lying, or have deceived yourself to the point where you can't recognize the truth.

Cal can fit in anywhere that wants to win big. You have a problem wanting to win big?

 

[.S&C.]

I appreciate your respectfulness. Just saying it is not Crean's or anyone else's "strategy" to NOT recruit and sign the best kids available, it is simply reality. Of course it works many, many times, UK is the aberration.

He just outed himself. Said Cal wouldn't fit in at IU.

They are so self righteous and blind. I guess when you have to accept losing with little choice, you try and change the standards.

This is the same program that hired Kelvin Sampson.

 

[hootervillearnolds]

Lose to Kentucky last weekend and the IU fan opinions change greatly with respect to Crean. You must be crazy to think we believe that YOU believe Crean is going anywhere with IU. He ran into one of the weakest Kentucky teams in the last 7 years. He won.....you are giddy like the other IU fan hanging around here. No need to think your on your way to another title anytime soon or ever for that matters. It simply takes the horses and even then it's extremely unlikely.

I disagree, for myself.

I would keep Crean because IU can't make another mistake right now, and Crean is not as bad as this board makes him out to be.

One game (either way) won't change my opinion.

And yes, I was giddy at winning, and I will be if we get UNC... because it will be unexpected; and because I am a fan.

 

[Bkocats]

of course Cal wouldn't fit in at IU - he looks horrible in red

 

[hootervillearnolds]

He just outed himself. Said Cal wouldn't fit in at IU.

They are so self righteous and blind. I guess when you have to accept losing with little choice, you try and change the standards.

This is the same program that hired Kelvin Sampson.

I never said I wouldn't like Cal, I just don't think he would work at IU.

That is because many in the "supporting class" (aka those with money) think they are too good for OAD mentality, and buy into the Big Ten academic superiority bias. I don't, but too many influential IU fans do.

But it is a moot point, he ain't coming.

As for Kelvin Sampson, I didn't like IU hiring him when they did (he was known cheater) and he took everything bad Mike Davis did and shoved it further down. But I will not blame Crean or IU's general fan base for that decision... they didn't ask us.

Now, don't get me wrong, when Cal went to UK I thought it was a bad choice. UK was at a crossroads, and he had a reputation that followed him. If the reputation had been true, it could have been very bad news for a program the NCAA already disliked. It turns out his reputation was undeserved, and it was a good hire. But that doesn't mean it wasn't risky... sort of like hiring Sampson was risky for IU... and a mistake.

So, as an IU fan, I hope Crean and is able to recruit Indiana and Illinois and Ohio the way Knight did when he was young and good... and I think he might.

 

[hootervillearnolds]

You would crawl over broken glass 200 yards for JVC to be your HC. You're lying, or have deceived yourself to the point where you can't recognize the truth.

Cal can fit in anywhere that wants to win big. You have a problem wanting to win big?

Like to have Cal as a coach, sure... can you arrange a swap?

But, crawl over glass? Naw, I ain't that big a basketball fan, and too much of a wuss around blood if it's my own.

I did learn something tonight, though. I didn't know Cal's middle initial is "V"

 

[.S&C.]

I never said I wouldn't like Cal, I just don't think he would work at IU.

That is because many in the "supporting class" (aka those with money) think they are too good for OAD mentality, and buy into the Big Ten academic superiority bias. I don't, but too many influential IU fans do.

But it is a moot point, he ain't coming.

As for Kelvin Sampson, I didn't like IU hiring him when they did (he was known cheater) and he took everything bad Mike Davis did and shoved it further down. But I will not blame Crean or IU's general fan base for that decision... they didn't ask us.

Now, don't get me wrong, when Cal went to UK I thought it was a bad choice. UK was at a crossroads, and he had a reputation that followed him. If the reputation had been true, it could have been very bad news for a program the NCAA already disliked. It turns out his reputation was undeserved, and it was a good hire. But that doesn't mean it wasn't risky... sort of like hiring Sampson was risky for IU... and a mistake.

So, as an IU fan, I hope Crean and is able to recruit Indiana and Illinois and Ohio the way Knight did when he was young and good... and I think he might.

[laughing]

Man, I don't meet many, but you guys are totally delusional. If you actually believe your brass wouldn't like Cal at IU, then you've totally fooled yourself by Indiana's loser mentality. You've convinced yourself you wouldn't want what you can't have, and like I said, it's called a losers mentality. create a world where you are choosing being a loser because its more self righteous.

Don't you realize every fan base does this that is losing? I.E losing the right way?

You want to believe IU has something over the winners, because you can't control the pitiful coaching hires your staff has made, and sunk themselves so deep into a contract with a mediocre coach that they can't get out of it. This is how sports fans cope with the reality.

Stop fooling yourself, and if you can't do that, stop trying to fool a successful program. We don't care, and we aren't buying.

 

[.S&C.]

Like to have Cal as a coach, sure... can you arrange a swap?

But, crawl over glass? Naw, I ain't that big a basketball fan, and too much of a wuss around blood if it's my own.

I did learn something tonight, though. I didn't know Cal's middle initial is "V"

Vincent.

Thanks for admitting you'd swap. I know that was hard.

 

[mapcatfan_rivals31344]

brianpoe

...................... I know that I read that he was surprised the twins came back and that Dakari's people were the ones that pushed him to the draft against Cal's advice......................

I remember hearing that Cal thought Dakari should have come back as well, and I think there have been a few others that he felt the same about.

However, I have also heard him say on more than one occasion that he is not going to try to talk them into coming back if they really want to leave. He has said, "How would I feel if I had talked them into coming back for a year and then they had a career ending injury?"

 

[mapcatfan_rivals31344]

hootervillearnolds, I think you would be surprised just how fast IU fans would accept Calipari and his system if he were your coach and had the same results he has had at UK. It would make your head spin.

I offer the Duke, and especially the Kansas fan bases as proof. All you had to do was read their forums just a few short years ago. Post after post claiming they "never wanted to recruit the way UK does - all those one and dones, ruining college basketball", and so on, and so on.............

Contrast that with what you can read on those very same forums today. One thread after another clamouring for "this five-star player" to go with "these other two five-star players". It's actually pretty comical to those of us that remember all of the ridicule thrown at UK back then.

 

[3rex]

Weak incoming class. Not Cal's fault.

Enough context for you?

I understand your desire to defend all things Cal here, but you do realize that he wasn't just handed a roster by a GM & said this is your team....right?
Or to ask in in another way, in your opinion, if a coach has a "weak incoming class," whose fault is it?

 

[HexxenHammer]

I understand your desire to defend all things Cal here, but you do realize that he wasn't just handed a roster by a GM & said this is your team....right?
Or to ask in in another way, in your opinion, if a coach has a "weak incoming class," whose fault is it?

26. Alex Poythress, FR, F, Kentucky

If Nerlens Noel is the new Anthony Davis in Lexington, then Poythress is the new Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. He's every bit as perfect a fit in John Calipari's system as MKG was, and could easily wind up being UK's most productive player this season.

That little excerpt is from September 2012, and should tell you everything you need to know. The cupboard was bare after a mass exodus from the previous season. Cal needed immediate impact players and either couldn't land them, or they didn't pan out. The draft was down that year, college basketball was down that year, and the incoming class was down that year. Some stuff is just out of Calipari's control.

Cal isn't infallible, but at least have some perspective.

 

[brianpoe]

I understand your desire to defend all things Cal here, but you do realize that he wasn't just handed a roster by a GM & said this is your team....right?
Or to ask in in another way, in your opinion, if a coach has a "weak incoming class," whose fault is it?

Cal is ultimately responsible for the roster every year. Good or bad.


But let's dismiss certain factors that would affect any team:

1. Rosters are designed a year or two in advance. Booker's rise was a surprise to everyone including Cal, and Dakari's choice to leave this year was also not expected.

Would this year's team had been better with Booker & Dakari > Murray and Humphries?


2. The #1 Center prospect and projected top NBA by pick by scouting services and NBA people simply did not pan out. Every team in America would have taken Skal (without the hassle of his guardian).

Would this team had been much better had Skal played to half of his potential?


3. Cal signed the #1 PG in the class who averaged good numbers from the line and the field - even won the 3 point contest.

Would this team had been much better had Briscoe reached average shooting percentages?


4. Is it on Cal that even though Alex could put the team on his back and carry us that he simply never developed the desire or intensity required to do so?

If Alex gave us the Alabama effort most nights how much better is this team?


5. Is it on Cal that a 5 star simply cannot grasp the touch and feel of the game? That a 5 star has such poor hands that he personally kept our PG's assist number down by at least one each game? That he simply cannot shoot or dribble after 3 years when every other big has improved exponentially each season?

Would this team be better had Marcus developed any type of offensive game other than lobs or put backs? Would this team be better if Marcus was just a below average free throw shooter?



Cal is the HC and he is responsible, however with kids unexpectedly leaving, recruits not coming close to their high school level of play and our returning upperclassmen unable to develop mentally or skill wise would make life difficult on any coach.


Cal has had some coaching mistakes but only 2013 was a major fail roster wise and Cal admitted as much (even then he expected Teague was coming back).

 

[3rex]

26. Alex Poythress, FR, F, Kentucky

If Nerlens Noel is the new Anthony Davis in Lexington, then Poythress is the new Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. He's every bit as perfect a fit in John Calipari's system as MKG was, and could easily wind up being UK's most productive player this season.

That little excerpt is from September 2012, and should tell you everything you need to know. The cupboard was bare after a mass exodus from the previous season. Cal needed immediate impact players and either couldn't land them, or they didn't pan out. The draft was down that year, college basketball was down that year, and the incoming class was down that year. Some stuff is just out of Calipari's control.

Cal isn't infallible, but at least have some perspective.

No idea how that answers my basic question, that being..."if a coach has a weak class coming in, and that isn't his fault, then whose fault is it?"

 

[HexxenHammer]

No idea how that answers my basic question, that being..."if a coach has a weak class coming in, and that isn't his fault, then whose fault is it?"

Don't pretend to be coy. Yes, Cal is ultimately responsible for the recruitment and the roster. But there is a distinction between the whole "The buck stops here, I'll take the blame" rhetoric and being fully at fault. There are factors outside his control that affected it. Just accept that and move on. Your obsession with this particular point is a bit odd, if not baffling.

Choosing to assign blame/fault to one particular person for that debacle is naïve beyond comprehension. Are you suggesting Cal didn't do his best to get the best talent? Can he control how strong the incoming class is? Just like he can always control who stays and who enters the draft, right?

Adding something to the discussion instead of being a contrarian may be beneficial.

 

[Kiimohawk]

hootervillearnolds, I think you would be surprised just how fast IU fans would accept Calipari and his system if he were your coach and had the same results he has had at UK. It would make your head spin.

I offer the Duke, and especially the Kansas fan bases as proof. All you had to do was read their forums just a few short years ago. Post after post claiming they "never wanted to recruit the way UK does - all those one and dones, ruining college basketball", and so on, and so on.............

Contrast that with what you can read on those very same forums today. One thread after another clamouring for "this five-star player" to go with "these other two five-star players". It's actually pretty comical to those of us that remember all of the ridicule thrown at UK back then.

It's true and yes it's pretty comical but let's not forget UK fans doing the very same thing with throwing Cal under the bus before he came to UK. I was here. I read it.

Fan bases talk a lot of smack until they get the opportunity to be on top. You'd see KU fans change their minds faster that Twoface if Cal had gone to KU. It would be "WELCOME HOME CAL" and we'd be saying the same exact things you guys do.

 

[3rex]

Don't pretend to be coy. Yes, Cal is ultimately responsible for the recruitment and the roster. But there is a distinction between the whole "The buck stops here, I'll take the blame" rhetoric and being fully at fault. There are factors outside his control that affected it. Just accept that and move on. Your obsession with this particular point is a bit odd, if not baffling.

Choosing to assign blame/fault to one particular person for that debacle is naïve beyond comprehension. Are you suggesting Cal didn't do his best to get the best talent? Can he control how strong the incoming class is? Just like he can always control who stays and who enters the draft, right?

Adding something to the discussion instead of being a contrarian may be beneficial.

Look, as I said, there is certainly wrong with showing your love for Coach Cal...it's a UK fan message board after all. But to just fire off a laundry list & say "not Cal's fault" after each one is a bit much, especially when one item on that list is the recruits. He recruited them. He brought them here. So if they weren't as good as advertised, then yes I'm sorry, that's on the coach. Any coach.
You don't see anything as Cal's fault. Fair enough & certainly you're right. But to decide someone is not contributing to the discussion simply because they dare disagree with you suggests that this whole message board thing might not be for you.

 

[HexxenHammer]

Look, as I said, there is certainly wrong with showing your love for Coach Cal...it's a UK fan message board after all. But to just fire off a laundry list & say "not Cal's fault" after each one is a bit much, especially when one item on that list is the recruits. He recruited them. He brought them here. So if they weren't as good as advertised, then yes I'm sorry, that's on the coach. Any coach.
You don't see anything as Cal's fault. Fair enough & certainly you're right. But to decide someone is not contributing to the discussion simply because they dare disagree with you suggests that this whole message board thing might not be for you.

So you put total blame on Cal for Skal's failure to live up to the hype? He certainly wasn't as good as advertised.

Yeah, you're definitely not contributing to the discussion when you hide behind smug remarks and make false assumptions and assertions.

Cal has his flaws, and there are things he does that I don't agree with. Just because I made a pro-Calipari post doesn't mean I think he's infallible or you know anything about me or what I think about him. But if oversimplifying the issue and labeling people to suit your own agenda is your modus operandi, then you've made your point.

 

[brianpoe]

So you put total blame on Cal for Skal's failure to live up to the hype? He certainly wasn't as good as advertised.

Yeah, you're definitely not contributing to the discussion when you hide behind smug remarks and make false assumptions and assertions.

Cal has his flaws, and there are things he does that I don't agree with. Just because I made a pro-Calipari post doesn't mean I think he's infallible or you know anything about me or what I think about him. But if oversimplifying the issue and labeling people to suit your own agenda is your modus operandi, then you've made your point.

You would make 3rex happy if you would just change your name to HexxenHomer..

I believe he would prefer most of us do that.