North Carolina Scandal Etc

[larry the cable guy]

The academic scandal is at the forefront of all of this and UNC is going to try to weasel out of it by saying other students were in those classes. Lost in the shuffle of that is the Cars for Stars thing with Fats providing impermissible benefits to athletes. This is not related to the general populous of students and therefore should be more than enough for the NCAA to nail them to the wall if they wanted to. I am one who will be very pleasantly surprised if UNCheat men's basketball gets anything out of this. They will let Lacrosse, women's volleyball and any other minor sport fall on the sword for the good of the University. There are no morals down in Tarheel land.

 

[Lumpy 2]

SIAP:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article72635327.html

UNC is guilty as sin. And they're on the verge of taking the NCAA down with them.

From the article; "the NCAA also said the former athletes had reason to know something was amiss when they took the fake classes, but they didn't raise objections at that time." That would shoot down UNC fans argument that the bogus classes were not improper benefits since the NCAA is arguing that the athletes should have known they were not legitimate classes.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

The NCAA is well-aware of the fact that UNC committed academic fraud.

The NCAA knows it must heavily punish UNC's academic fraud or "Jenkins vs NCAA" will crush the NCAA.

 

[preacherfan]

This just makes ya wanna throw up. Basically..........."well.........uhh.............the athletes should have known these were fake classes, and besides...............the statute of limitations is up. We're good".

[sick]

Roy Williams said that he wasn't all that concerned because he knew UNC would give the athletes a good education.

In the Bethel film, Beth Bridger, one of the cheating academic counselors, said that the athletes were getting a better education by not going to class.

This is getting fun!

 

[preacherfan]

From the article; "the NCAA also said the former athletes had reason to know something was amiss when they took the fake classes, but they didn't raise objections at that time." That would shoot down UNC fans argument that the bogus classes were not improper benefits since the NCAA is arguing that the athletes should have known they were not legitimate classes.

As I said, this also shoots down Roy when he said he "trusted" UNC to give the students a good education and shoots down Beth Bridger who argues the athletes were getting a better education.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

As I said, this also shoots down Roy when he said he "trusted" UNC to give the students a good education and shoots down Beth Bridger who argues the athletes were getting a better education.

Are you calling UNC staffers liars??

 

[preacherfan]

Are you calling UNC staffers liars??

Beth, Roy and Bradley are liars. I don't think I can say it any clearer than that![winking]

 

[Clive Gollings]

In the Bethel film, Beth Bridger, one of the cheating academic counselors, said that the athletes were getting a better education by not going to class.

Is there anywhere online to watch this?

 

[KopiKat]

There's an important admission embedded in that defense: UNC isn't claiming that athletes were actively seeking out fake classes. UNC is implying that there was pre-existing fraud independent of the athletes, who merely "didn't resist" being sucked into it.

They're also implying that the fraud was so blatant that even naive freshman students should've known what was going on and either avoided it or reported it.

Indeed, but don't stop there, Jam . . . read into it for it's full worth . . . the oldest public institution in our land, regal and pure, a "public ivy" as we are told time and again, moral and perfect, proclaiming that ignorant youths, first-timers in their lines to higher education, descended from slavery, having been teased and frauded by content based on their very race . . . if those persons did not immediately object then how can this majestic institution possibly be faulted?

 

[bigbluehomer]

Roy Williams said that he wasn't all that concerned because he knew UNC would give the athletes a good education.

In the Bethel film, Beth Bridger, one of the cheating academic counselors, said that the athletes were getting a better education by not going to class.

This is getting fun!

And didn't Bubba spit something out about a year ago to the tune of "who knows how well the students would have done in real classes, think about that.......". LOL!

 

[Aligned_for_9]

By the way...due to the timeline of NCAA process...it's very reasonable that the coming sanctions will not be levied until around this time next year.

The NCAA will soon issue the NOA to UNC. UNC will get up to 90 days to respond. Then the COI actually has to decide what the sanctions will be.

The process is moving along, but for those who are expecting sanctions to be announced by the end of summer...you'll be disappointed. Just sit back and enjoy what happens after the NOA is issued. Watch Roy squirm until he announces his retirement due to "medical reasons." Watch UNC attempt to recruit with big sanctions looming over them.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

On Inside Carolina a sizable number of posters have completely, sincerely bought into this theory: That the refs, on orders of the NCAA, cheated them out of the championship game, and that that is UNC's punishment -- now the NCAA will close the investigation and the finals loss will stand as 'time served.'

I know Kentucky has its share of cracked fans, but the collective will over there to ignore this scandal, and to actually claim nothing serious ever happened, is a North Korean brand of group delusion. They really are a pathetic lot.

It can't be said enough. UNC "insiders" are 100% being told what they say they are being told. However, they are 100% being told lies by the Ram's Club in order to keep the morale up and keep the dollars coming as long as possible.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Expect lots of athletes to be retroactively ruled ineligible...based on UNC's own policy

I'm quoting this again because I don't think it was noticed enough. I'm reading this as Aligned saying this is going to happen, much like his other "predictions". The implications make your head spin. Entire seasons must be vacated, in multiple sports, including their beloved mens basketball program. I assume that's how you meant that, correct Aligned? I don't know if that will affect '09 banner or not. I would think it would affect '05 and beyond that the number of wins could be staggering. Not to mention the risk to their final four banners from '93, '95, '97, '98, '00. Then of course you have conference titles and ACCT championships from '94 and '01. Then we come to Roy. There is absolutely no way he can stay at the helm if what Aligned is insinuating actually happens. He simply can't. Whats funnier is their attorneys defending against the myriad lawsuits over the classes are implicating them along the way. It's beginning to look like a lose/lose for them and they have to chase the best of the bad outcomes. It's a chinese finger trap. The more they squirm, the tighter it gets.

Ha Ha

 

[KMKAT]

IMO, they should have to remain on TV to show the country what happens to a program that gets penalized for 20 years of corrupt transgressions. That'll punish them, and Cal and Stoops ought to take advantage of them in recruiting every chance they get.

 

[OldRed]

IMO, they should have to remain on TV to show the country what happens to a program that gets penalized for 20 years of corrupt transgressions. That'll punish them, and Cal and Stoops ought to take advantage of them in recruiting every chance they get.

I don't want them on TV as a sympathetic figure. They should not be on TV and I want ESPN to get to mention that every week during the season.

 

[KMKAT]

From the N&O article, it mentions that no limits were put on students for independent studies:

UNC also told the accreditation commission that a graduation coordinator from 1988 to 2008 “did not limit the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward graduation of any students.” Since the limit was 12 hours, there's a lot of railroading going on from the current administration and the ones who administered this over the years.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article69262627.html#storylink=cpy

This in essence is what got Samford in trouble as they were told from the NCAA auditor they should have known studies kids are allowed to take and could not plead ignorance. It will be very telling with the amount of wins that took place during that time.

Those classes should be banished from the records and those kids should be going to school for free to offset the damage this has spurned.

 

[BigBlueCatNation]

There's an important admission embedded in that defense: UNC isn't claiming that athletes were actively seeking out fake classes. UNC is implying that there was pre-existing fraud independent of the athletes, who merely "didn't resist" being sucked into it.

They're also implying that the fraud was so blatant that even naive freshman students should've known what was going on and either avoided it or reported it.

I didn't read the latest article, but is it saying that UNC is putting the blame on players, saying that they should have known and didn't say anything about it?

If so, WOW! That will definitely be a new low...

 

[ukcatsfan1]

In October 2014, the N&O reported that UNC’s undergraduate bulletins cited a 12-hour limit for “special studies” going at least as far back as the early 1990s. It typically takes 120 hours of academic credit or more to complete a bachelor’s degree. Faculty viewed those special studies as independent studies.

Until Fall 2006 there was no defined limit on the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward an undergraduate degree,” UNC officials said in correspondence to the accrediting commission last year.



Seems UNC can't even lie well enough without tripping over the last one....

 

[Aligned_for_9]

In October 2014, the N&O reported that UNC’s undergraduate bulletins cited a 12-hour limit for “special studies” going at least as far back as the early 1990s. It typically takes 120 hours of academic credit or more to complete a bachelor’s degree. Faculty viewed those special studies as independent studies.

Until Fall 2006 there was no defined limit on the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward an undergraduate degree,” UNC officials said in correspondence to the accrediting commission last year.



Seems UNC can't even lie well enough without tripping over the last one....

UNC indeed told both SACS & NCAA that there was no limit on Independent Studies until 2006 ('05 banner). In July 2015, Dan Kane submitted hard proof from hard copies of old UNC documents that the limits on independent studies existed as far back as 1989....submitted to the NCAA...despite Kane not making that known via article until recently. #SneakyKane

This UNC policy dating back to the 1980s is why UNC is at great risk of vacating "numerous seasons." Every Independent Study class that was in excess of UNC's own policy does not count for the athletes "Progress Toward Degree"....meaning the athlete was NOT working toward a degree under with a legit "FT class load." What does the NCAA say about not being a FT student? UNC's own policy...

UNC was allowing athletes to break UNC's own policy...thus an impermissible benefit...based on policy dating back to 1980s.

Now that SACS & UNC agreed to academic fraud... That's on the table too...in addition to the impermissible benefits.

A few thousand enrollments in those lovely independent studies...by athletes...mainly MBB, WBB, & FB.

Cheers!

 

[Coach325]

^^^ you obviously know what you are talking about, I just hope the NCAA sees eye to eye with you.

 

[preacherfan]

Is there anywhere online to watch this?

Nope. In fact, Bethel is trying to raise more money just to do some more showings. He says that he hasn't been paid in months and is in debt.

There are some online reviews of the movie. I've read them and they aren't exactly the type of reviews that would make me want to watch the movie. Bethel seemed to focus on clearing Bridger and the other counselors. One of his claims is that they didn't know Crowder was only a secretary! I guess, according to Bethel, it is better to be stupid than to be called a cheater.

 

[JPScott]

This posted on Inside Carolina a little bit ago. If this is their punishment, that is not "getting hammered." I obviously don't know who this guy is and hope he's wrong.

As you know, I have been here a few times with predictions over the years. Only when I hear from someone who is connected will I post it. I am four for four to date over a few years. These are not my predictions because I have no way to know. I am not on the inside, not even close.

A while back I was told by a very reliable source the UNC was not expecting any sanctions from The NCAA for Men's Basketball. Rather, Men's Soccer and Women's Soccer and Basketball would be harmed. I stated this in here.

I have just heard from the same source that UNC is now expecting a one year post season ban and a one year loss of two scholarships for Men's Basketball. This person is normally right on the money but we will see.

With all due respect, a UNC board is the last place I'd look to find legitimate info on this scandal.

Those people thought it was over with the Martin report. And they actually believe that UNC has been fully cooperating with the investigation and has tried to get to the bottom of this scandal.

 

[KopiKat]

UNC indeed told both SACS & NCAA that there was no limit on Independent Studies until 2006 ('05 banner). In July 2015, Dan Kane submitted hard proof from hard copies of old UNC documents that the limits on independent studies existed as far back as 1989....submitted to the NCAA...despite Kane not making that known via article until recently. #SneakyKane

This UNC policy dating back to the 1980s is why UNC is at great risk of vacating "numerous seasons." Every Independent Study class that was in excess of UNC's own policy does not count for the athletes "Progress Toward Degree"....meaning the athlete was NOT working toward a degree under with a legit "FT class load." What does the NCAA say about not being a FT student? UNC's own policy...

UNC was allowing athletes to break UNC's own policy...thus an impermissible benefit...based on policy dating back to 1980s.

Now that SACS & UNC agreed to academic fraud... That's on the table too...in addition to the impermissible benefits.

A few thousand enrollments in those lovely independent studies...by athletes...mainly MBB, WBB, & FB.

Cheers!

Thanks for the abundance, Aligned. Is this what giving into the urge to dump all that you have looks like? Please tell me you're still playing it tight. Again . . . I just, thank you. kk

 

[Aligned_for_9]

Please note that I am NOT saying a few thousand athletes were involved. I am saying a several hundred athletes were enrolled in multiple bogus independent study "classes"...totaling a few thousand enrollments.

If the NCAA sticks only to those who took excessive independent study courses per UNC policy... We're potentially looking at a couple hundred athletes...as not every athlete who took independent studies took more than 12 hours. Some may have taken 3-12 hours of bogus Indy study, which is within UNC's policy. However, due to McCants producing his own transcript for ESPN...we know that McCants had exceeded UNC's policy heading into Spring semester. Based on UNC's policy, Rashad McCants was ineligible to play during the entire Spring semester...the semester in which Match Madness occurs...and UNC stole the 2005 championship. McCants ALONE is enough to bring down that banner. McCants is far from the only athlete in that situation.


Good rumor is that the NCAA is now considering "academic fraud" as UNC has formally admitted it to SACS...and NCAA policy allows 3rd party testimony. (Sorry Heels, I can produce the Bylaw if you wish). If the NCAA really does include "academic fraud"...taking 3-12 hours of bogus independent study won't matter...the classes were fraudulent...then we're looking at several hundred athletes...possibly approaching 1000.

 

[wolfheart]

Please note that I am NOT saying a few thousand athletes were involved. I am saying a several hundred athletes were enrolled in multiple bogus independent study "classes"...totaling a few thousand enrollments.

If the NCAA sticks only to those who took excessive independent study courses per UNC policy... We're potentially looking at a couple hundred athletes...as not every athlete who took independent studies took more than 12 hours. Some may have taken 3-12 hours of bogus Indy study, which is within UNC's policy. However, due to McCants producing his own transcript for ESPN...we know that McCants had exceeded UNC's policy heading into Spring semester. Based on UNC's policy, Rashad McCants was ineligible to play during the entire Spring semester...the semester in which Match Madness occurs...and UNC stole the 2005 championship. McCants ALONE is enough to bring down that banner. McCants is far from the only athlete in that situation.


Good rumor is that the NCAA is now considering "academic fraud" as UNC has formally admitted it to SACS...and NCAA policy allows 3rd party testimony. (Sorry Heels, I can produce the Bylaw if you wish). If the NCAA really does include "academic fraud"...taking 3-12 hours of bogus independent study won't matter...the classes were fraudulent...then we're looking at several hundred athletes...possibly approaching 1000.

How is the NCAA "considering" academic fraud if the NOA is complete. It is either alleged or not alleged. Something does not jive.

 

[Aligned_for_9]

How is the NCAA "considering" academic fraud if the NOA is complete. It is either alleged or not alleged. Something does not jive.

The rumor is that the sixth Level 1 violation added to the amended NOA involves academic fraud. I apologize for using the wrong tense.

The additional Level 2 violation involves issues with financial aid.

 

[mapcatfan_rivals31344]

The rumor is that the sixth Level 1 violation added to the amended NOA involves academic fraud. I apologize for using the wrong tense.

The additional Level 2 violation involves issues with financial aid.

Have you heard anything about the completely different issue of cars provided for players to use? Is that even going to be a part of this whole thing?

 

[Aligned_for_9]

Have you heard anything about the completely different issue of cars provided for players to use? Is that even going to be a part of this whole thing?

I've heard nothing about Wheels4Heels being involved. With the small exception of PJ Hairston's career being cut short... UNC got away with it.

 

[JPScott]

I've heard nothing about Wheels4Heels being involved. With the small exception of PJ Hairston's career being cut short... UNC got away with it.

That's the one thing which I think most people in the media and elsewhere have missed. The NCAA to date has based their allegations only on what was in the Wainstein report.

In case I need to remind people, the Wainstein report was bought and paid for by UNC and they ensured that it was largely focused on AFAM studies. Despite this, there is plenty of evidence elsewhere, including in the Wainstein addendums which not only show that this fraud went well beyond AFAM studies and well beyond two staffers, but also goes into numerous other areas of the University.

Wheels4Heels is but one such example. That was never sufficiently investigated, and the most that happened was UNC was allowed to drop Hairston without any lasting harm to them. (despite lying to the national media about their intention to request reinstatement, which was nothing but a ruse to ensure that he completed the semester so he wouldn't hurt the team's APR.)

FWIW, I still have to wonder that if these players were indeed driving to Durham in a known drug dealer's car with drugs and weapons, why does everyone assume they were 'joy-riding' and not doing business?

 

[mapcatfan_rivals31344]

So has Dan Kane dealt only with the academic part of UNC's corruption, or has he previously written about Wheels4Heels as well?

 

[UKNumberOne]

Indeed, but don't stop there, Jam . . . read into it for it's full worth . . . the oldest public institution in our land, regal and pure, a "public ivy" as we are told time and again, moral and perfect, proclaiming that ignorant youths, first-timers in their lines to higher education, descended from slavery, having been teased and frauded by content based on their very race . . . if those persons did not immediately object then how can this majestic institution possibly be faulted?

Yea, and Louisville can then argue... what? those recruits should have known better ... it's their fault...

 

[KopiKat]

FWIW, I still have to wonder that if these players were indeed driving to Durham in a known drug dealer's car with drugs and weapons, why does everyone assume they were 'joy-riding' and not doing business?

When combined with the factual element of former unc basketball player Will Graves living in Roy Williams' home while in possession of 4.4 grams of marijuana, 3 full "blunts", partial blunts, marijuana seeds and a dope grinder during the same timeframe? No clue.

 

[wolfheart]

The UNC case is a classic academic fraud case and the NCAA should have used this initially. They could have charged DC with academic fraud simply for identifying the courses with numbers that were not classified as IS courses in order to permit the students to take more than the institutional limit. This has nothing to do with non-original work, course rigor, no professor, etc. Academic fraud has many different faces. Note- if the institutional limit was not in place, using a different course number would probably not be fraud. But the fact that the credits received avoided violation of the ip is academic fraud pure and simple.

 

[Anon1728003274]

By the way...due to the timeline of NCAA process...it's very reasonable that the coming sanctions will not be levied until around this time next year.

The NCAA will soon issue the NOA to UNC. UNC will get up to 90 days to respond. Then the COI actually has to decide what the sanctions will be.

The process is moving along, but for those who are expecting sanctions to be announced by the end of summer...you'll be disappointed. Just sit back and enjoy what happens after the NOA is issued. Watch Roy squirm until he announces his retirement due to "medical reasons." Watch UNC attempt to recruit with big sanctions looming over them.

And Roy will continue to get salty whenever he's asked about retirement. IMO its partly because of the looming sanctions. He wants NO PART of even a one year postseason ban and will fade away if it comes to pass. His ego is MUCH too large to handle it...

Funny thing, ol Roy had a post season presser last week and said Isiah Hicks had taken too much blame for Jenkins game winner by 'Nova.He made a big deal about it, but has never blamed the ONE PERSON who blew the defensive call on that play-Roy himself for leaving the shooter unguarded.The ending of the title game was PURE ECSTASY, as the shameful villains got what they deserved....

 

[docholiday51]

The question of academic fraud at UNC has been answered long ago.there is no doubt that NCAA violations occurred over a multi-year period of time.The type of violations most likely involved financial aid and Pell grant issues that are criminal in nature.

UNC was very good at what they did,covering this for years required a plan and a systematic execution of said plan. How many people do you suppose it took to pull this off for over a decade

The only real question that remains is what does the NCAA do with this box of dynamite,the fuse is lit and it is burning .Emmert is trying to put it out and he may be able to do so but it seems less likely now than it did a few months ago.

I don't believe the NCAA will fit the punishment to the crime.(I'm not actually sure they can if UNC still has an operating athletic program for the next couple of years)The NCAA won't go that far but if the death penalty isn't warranted in this case it never will be.

 

[larry the cable guy]

I was banned long ago from posting on the Carolina board and haven't visited since. I have to admit that if the hammer is dropped I will go back just to see Hellisheel and Gun Slinger Dick wallow in their own tears. [laughing][laughing][laughing]

 

[MNantz]

I have to agree there is no what the NCAA will punish the UNCheats to the amount they should be !! If this is not a case where the death penalty is not deserved then a case may never exist . I guess UNCheat figures the longer they can delay the case the better chance they have coming to an agreement with the NCAA on a lesser penality.

 

[KMKAT]

That COI has a lot of responsibility to maintain the integrity of the system. Would anyone be surprised if Emmert tries to come in and override their punishment with one of his own liking? Reminds me of Swofford in that ignorance is the first line of defense, and that current UNC administration should be ashamed of what they're trying to cover up.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

back to the first page we go

 

[mebeblue2]

back to the first page we go

it is the off season
neither scandal should fall from page one