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Five in Five - What Might That Look Like?

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Poke90

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Wrestleknownothing said:
While we wait for the D1 Cabinet I thought I would take a shot

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5 in 5 - What Might That Look Like? | Wrestling.Guru

Last week the Division I Board of Directors directed the Division I Cabinet to advance a concept that would allow athletes five years of eligibility. Curren ...
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On your chart it is labeled freshman All-Americans and it says 2026 3 true freshmen and one other (assuming redshirt freshman) AAs. Did you mean to say national champions? Because it seems like 133lbs had 4 AA’s or possibly more.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Poke90 said:
On your chart it is labeled freshman All-Americans and it says 2026 3 true freshmen and one other (assuming redshirt freshman) AAs. Did you mean to say national champions? Because it seems like 133lbs had 4 AA’s or possibly more.
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Good catch. Yes, that is champs. I was looking at AAs, but then flipped it and forgot to change the title. I will fix that.

And I used Other because there is a lot of things in that category (missions, covid years, injuries, regular redshirts, Oly redshirts, grey shirts, and a few others). There are also multiples.
 
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rcsone1

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...my understanding is that you have five years to complete FOUR years of participation........................not an increase to five years of participation...
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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rcsone1 said:
...my understanding is that you have five years to complete FOUR years of participation........................not an increase to five years of participation...
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The D1 Council was instructed to work on a new rule where it would be 5 years of eligibility in 5 years starting with the earlier of HS graduation or 19. No redshirts.
 
Old Number Nine

Old Number Nine

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Someone mentioned that this change would be perfect for a team with 6 freshman starters but doesn't it also push back PSU's upperclassmen drop off which would help our reaching #34?
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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Old Number Nine said:
Someone mentioned that this change would be perfect for a team with 6 freshman starters but doesn't it also push back PSU's upperclassmen drop off which would help our reaching #34?
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I think there is a lot of path dependency to these decisions.

I have heard some say that existing athletes will have the option to stay on the old rules or shift to the new. But running parallel systems of eligibility for up to 7 years seems crazy. But let's say they do that.

If you are an existing athlete who has not used a redshirt it probably makes sense to switch to the new as you will get an extra year of eligibility. The downside is if you get injured twice, or want to prepare for the Olympics, or sit out for two seasons for any reason, you would have been better off staying on the old rules.

For anyone who has already used a redshirt, greyshirt, Olympic shirt, hardship waiver (or will), etc. it makes sense to stick to the old rules to maximize remaining years of eligibility.

Then it becomes an optimization problem for each team. And a title may come down to how well the optimization was handled.
 
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Howie_Fartz

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Wrestleknownothing said:
I think there is a lot of path dependency to these decisions.

I have heard some say that existing athletes will have the option to stay on the old rules or shift to the new. But running parallel systems of eligibility for up to 7 years seems crazy. But let's say they do that.

If you are an existing athlete who has not used a redshirt it probably makes sense to switch to the new as you will get an extra year of eligibility. The downside is if you get injured twice, or want to prepare for the Olympics, or sit out for two seasons for any reason, you would have been better off staying on the old rules.

For anyone who has already used a redshirt, greyshirt, Olympic shirt, hardship waiver (or will), etc. it makes sense to stick to the old rules to maximize remaining years of eligibility.

Then it becomes an optimization problem for each team. And a title may come down to how well the optimization was handled.
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Good info right there my man.
 
chasepollard

chasepollard

Heisman
Nov 25, 2005
93,147
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48
Wrestleknownothing said:
I think there is a lot of path dependency to these decisions.

I have heard some say that existing athletes will have the option to stay on the old rules or shift to the new. But running parallel systems of eligibility for up to 7 years seems crazy. But let's say they do that.

If you are an existing athlete who has not used a redshirt it probably makes sense to switch to the new as you will get an extra year of eligibility. The downside is if you get injured twice, or want to prepare for the Olympics, or sit out for two seasons for any reason, you would have been better off staying on the old rules.

For anyone who has already used a redshirt, greyshirt, Olympic shirt, hardship waiver (or will), etc. it makes sense to stick to the old rules to maximize remaining years of eligibility.

Then it becomes an optimization problem for each team. And a title may come down to how well the optimization was handled.
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What is your actual opinion of this?

Here is mine:

This is for Football and Basketball. The non-rev sports will be hurt by this as more Wrestlers will be on the move each year. It makes it hard to "love" individuals in an individual sport, as they will likely not compete at the same school for the entirety, which in turn creates a more apathetic fanbase. That in turn, can diminish fundraising efforts.

I believe it will hurt the lower level divisions as programs will continue to go away, only with more frequency.

It also hurts one of two types of Wrestling. For guys that want Olympic Gold, it will hurt the school they chose. I believe many will want to run out eligibility and then focus on senior level, which will hurt how competitive our USA team is.

Does there need to be "fixes?" Yes, but eligibility is at the bottom of the list IMO. Is there a better fix for this? Yes! Make requirements for OS and MS situations. Example, if you don't compete at qualifiers, you don't get an OS. For a MS, the NCAA could spend less money by an approval process for Doctors that are required to be the examining physician and guys don't get a MS unless the treatment protocol erases more than 6 weeks of Wrestling.

So my opinion of this, its BS and not good for our sport in any way that I can see. Its a damn good thing Brandon Weeden didn't have to abide by this rule.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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chasepollard said:
What is your actual opinion of this?

Here is mine:

This is for Football and Basketball. The non-rev sports will be hurt by this as more Wrestlers will be on the move each year. It makes it hard to "love" individuals in an individual sport, as they will likely not compete at the same school for the entirety, which in turn creates a more apathetic fanbase. That in turn, can diminish fundraising efforts.

I believe it will hurt the lower level divisions as programs will continue to go away, only with more frequency.

It also hurts one of two types of Wrestling. For guys that want Olympic Gold, it will hurt the school they chose. I believe many will want to run out eligibility and then focus on senior level, which will hurt how competitive our USA team is.

Does there need to be "fixes?" Yes, but eligibility is at the bottom of the list IMO. Is there a better fix for this? Yes! Make requirements for OS and MS situations. Example, if you don't compete at qualifiers, you don't get an OS. For a MS, the NCAA could spend less money by an approval process for Doctors that are required to be the examining physician and guys don't get a MS unless the treatment protocol erases more than 6 weeks of Wrestling.

So my opinion of this, its BS and not good for our sport in any way that I can see. Its a damn good thing Brandon Weeden didn't have to abide by this rule.
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I agree this is driven by the football/basketball, and it is a one size fits all approach. That much is clear if they leave out the Olympic redshirt. I disagree that it will decrease fundraising. Free transfers, and the ineffectiveness of the CSC/NILGo make spending money more effective than ever. Just ask Indiana football. Fundraising will become even more emphasized than ever. And with the right pitch, it will become more effective. Of course, with the wrong pitch....

I disagree about hurting lower level teams. I think this has the potential to help them as logjams at top level teams cannot be resolved with various shirts. Instead of sitting a year, or two, at their top pick, a wrestler may expand their search and go somewhere else. There will still be teams saying if you sit a year you are not losing anything relative to prior to the rule change. But what you lose is optionality. If you volunteer to sit a year then get injured, you forfeit two years. And in a sport where every single person gets injured, that option has a lot of value. No sense giving it away for free.

I agree this has the potential to damage the Olympic program. There are not a lot of Kyle Snyders out there who can do both at the same time, and nail it. Depending on the timing, some may take a year off of folk, like happens now, and choose to only wrestle four collegiate seasons, or do what you said and end their college career early. Others will just delay their international aspirations.

I am a big fan of fixing the Olympic shirt rules. The AJ Ferrari version of the Olympic shirt violates the spirit of the rule, so it should also be made to violate the letter of the rule. Not sure what to do about hardship waivers.
 
chasepollard

chasepollard

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Wrestleknownothing said:
I agree this is driven by the football/basketball, and it is a one size fits all approach. That much is clear if they leave out the Olympic redshirt. I disagree that it will decrease fundraising. Free transfers, and the ineffectiveness of the CSC/NILGo make spending money more effective than ever. Just ask Indiana football. Fundraising will become even more emphasized than ever. And with the right pitch, it will become more effective. Of course, with the wrong pitch....

I disagree about hurting lower level teams. I think this has the potential to help them as logjams at top level teams cannot be resolved with various shirts. Instead of sitting a year, or two, at their top pick, a wrestler may expand their search and go somewhere else. There will still be teams saying if you sit a year you are not losing anything relative to prior to the rule change. But what you lose is optionality. If you volunteer to sit a year then get injured, you forfeit two years. And in a sport where every single person gets injured, that option has a lot of value. No sense giving it away for free.

I agree this has the potential to damage the Olympic program. There are not a lot of Kyle Snyders out there who can do both at the same time, and nail it. Depending on the timing, some may take a year off of folk, like happens now, and choose to only wrestle four collegiate seasons, or do what you said and end their college career early. Others will just delay their international aspirations.

I am a big fan of fixing the Olympic shirt rules. The AJ Ferrari version of the Olympic shirt violates the spirit of the rule, so it should also be made to violate the letter of the rule. Not sure what to do about hardship waivers.
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Good rebuttal for discussion. I hadn't thought about it actually bolstering rosters at lower levels, that is a very good point and I can get with that change.

I don't agree on the fundraising. Indiana football is a decent example, but I don't think it will help total fundraising efforts. It might be effective on guys that can afford to give up to and more than six figures, but it is going to damage the guys giving twenty and under. Programs that are made up of donations that jump into the seven figures from those "little" donors will see some crunch, maybe not? Also, AD's are going to further pirate the non-rev budgets to replicate Indiana/Texas Tech football.

Simply put, it's going to happen, but I really hope there is an army of legal beagles that get after this and get it fixed. If a situation is more damaging than helpful, you don't do it...IMO, it's more damaging for Wrestling than helpful.
 
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Wrestleknownothing

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vhsalum said:
And the NFL is declining a Supplemental Draft. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

All is right with the world for exactly right now.
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Here is a shocker - his lawyer is threatening to sue.

Per the lawyer, "This is an unlawful act in violation of the CBA. The player is going to bring this to the NFLPA." But he is not a member of the NFLPA and is not covered by the CBA. Wonder how that is going to work?
 
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Corby2

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vhsalum said:
And the NFL is declining a Supplemental Draft. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

All is right with the world for exactly right now.
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How many people become Mormon now for a mission. Mission being to become an Olympic athlete and train at an RTC🤷
 
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vhsalum

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Wrestleknownothing said:
Here is a shocker - his lawyer is threatening to sue.

Per the lawyer, "This is an unlawful act in violation of the CBA. The player is going to bring this to the NFLPA." But he is not a member of the NFLPA and is not covered by the CBA. Wonder how that is going to work?
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Man. good luck. The NFL is a private institution. There ain't nothing Sorsby, Sorsby's lawyers or Sorsby's god can do to the NFL. Did you read the letter the NFL sent him denying his application?

Greatest, most polite, "F you kid, eat poop," letter in sports history.
 
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vhsalum

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Corby2 said:
How many people become Mormon now for a mission. Mission being to become an Olympic athlete and train at an RTC🤷
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none.

Mormon missionary work is SUPER strict. Like, if you do it, you actually have to go somewhere and do the work. and there is no working out. Hardy talked about a bit. You get like 30 minutes of personal time a day or something. And there is no, go to the gym and get a work out in. Let alone 2 a days.
 
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chasepollard

chasepollard

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vhsalum said:
none.

Mormon missionary work is SUPER strict. Like, if you do it, you actually have to go somewhere and do the work. and there is no working out. Hardy talked about a bit. You get like 30 minutes of personal time a day or something. And there is no, go to the gym and get a work out in. Let alone 2 a days.
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Did they specify "Mormon" as the only acceptable mission work?

As an ordained minister, I have some missions for OSU guys if needed.
 
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Corby2

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vhsalum said:
none.

Mormon missionary work is SUPER strict. Like, if you do it, you actually have to go somewhere and do the work. and there is no working out. Hardy talked about a bit. You get like 30 minutes of personal time a day or something. And there is no, go to the gym and get a work out in. Let alone 2 a days.
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Agree and understand how it works currently. $ talks and bullsh*t runs the marathon 🤷
 
V

vhsalum

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chasepollard said:
Did they specify "Mormon" as the only acceptable mission work?

As an ordained minister, I have some missions for OSU guys if needed.
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It says "official religious mission" - so no, not only the Mormons.

But, good luck.
 
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Corby2

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chasepollard said:
Did they specify "Mormon" as the only acceptable mission work?

As an ordained minister, I have some missions for OSU guys if needed.
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No they didn't it's just the only one currently being done and the common one so I said Mormon. The church of wrestling could be started 🤷.
 
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FourCornersCowboy

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vhsalum said:
Man. good luck. The NFL is a private institution. There ain't nothing Sorsby, Sorsby's lawyers or Sorsby's god can do to the NFL. Did you read the letter the NFL sent him denying his application?

Greatest, most polite, "F you kid, eat poop," letter in sports history.
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I like the part where they chastised his attorneys for not even turning in their homework.

Not sure who his legal team is/was but woof.
 
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Corby2

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So if they win this lawsuit. That would mean Levi and Mendez would get another year
 
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chasepollard

chasepollard

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Corby2 said:
So if they win this lawsuit. That would mean Levi and Mendez would get another year
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What is your knowledge of the reasoning behind this? Complain about Medicals, amend how that is accomplished. Complain about OS, amend how that is accomplished.

Why do a complete wholesale change that has a 100% certainty to cause legal clouding?
 
P

proud2bpokes

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Where were the attorneys when seniors participating in winter and spring sports lost their last year of eligibility in 2020?

Mark Hall was only allowed 3 NCAA tournaments in 3 years (2017-19) since he didn’t redshirt. Zahid lost his 4th year and a chance to be a 3X national champ. Joe Smith and Piccinninni missed out on chances to be 3X all-Americans.
 
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Corby2

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chasepollard said:
What is your knowledge of the reasoning behind this? Complain about Medicals, amend how that is accomplished. Complain about OS, amend how that is accomplished.

Why do a complete wholesale change that has a 100% certainty to cause legal clouding?
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It's definitely a mess. My opinion is if you didn't RS and went four straight you should get a 5th. Everyone after you will have that choice. They shouldve put that in . But it's the NCAA
 
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chasepollard

chasepollard

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Corby2 said:
It's definitely a mess. My opinion is if you didn't RS and went four straight you should get a 5th. Everyone after you will have that choice. They shouldve put that in . But it's the NCAA
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Amend the rules on what it takes to get a medical. Make them win 2 matches at WTT or something, otherwise you don’t get the O-shirt.

Somehow, the NCAA can’t even think simple well enough not to screw stuff up.
 
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