OT: 2021 Baseball HOF Ballot Released.

[AreYouNUTS]

Schilling is like Eli...long career and a couple of iconic games/moments. It's the Hall of FAME. Not Hall of Talent.

Eli, in epic fashion, won 2 SB''s AND garnished 2 SB MVP trophies. That, my friend, is "fame" whether anyone likes it or not. Eli is in. Schilling, meh, douche (yet stunning how much better he's done than Cone, for example, with balloting thus far).

 

[yesrutgers01]

If Helton could have finished his last 6 yrs 25% better hed be a sure fire 1st ballot guy. For 10 yrs he was dominant

I just looked at Helton's stats and 2000/2001 jumped off the screen. Not only because of
.372 42HR 147 RBI
.336 49HR 146 RBI
But that he finished 5th and 9th in MVP voting those years

 

[yesrutgers01]

I'd rather non one go to keep the inegrity of the hall. Bade enough Puckett is there

I can only assume because of his off the field after his career stuff?

 

[e5fdny]

I can only assume because of his off the field after his career stuff?

Well his on the field certainly passes the test IMO.

 

[RUBOB72]

Who the hell voted for Nick Swisher even if only on the ballot... 249 BA ....245 HR... man they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel unless it’s a different guy I’m thinking of.

 

[greenknight]

I just looked at Helton's stats and 2000/2001 jumped off the screen. Not only because of
.372 42HR 147 RBI
.336 49HR 146 RBI
But that he finished 5th and 9th in MVP voting those years

You know why Coors Field was a launching pad a mile up. It hurt him and his stats

 

[RUaMoose_rivals]

Steve Garvey. Mr Clean belongs in the Hall !

 

[Colbert17!]

Steve Garvey. Mr Clean belongs in the Hall !

Love Garvey. Hit the biggest HR in Padre history (game 4 NLCS 1984) and a 10 time AS but never thought of him as a HOFer. As someone mentioned before he's one of those guys who should be in the Hall of Very, Very Good.

15 years on the ballot and was consistently in the 30 and 40% range.

Numbers: Garvey vs. Helton

Helton: .316 369 HR 1406 RBI 414 OBP
Garvey: .294 272 HR 1308 RBI 329 OBP

 

[RUaMoose_rivals]

Love Garvey. Hit the biggest HR in Padre history (game 4 NLCS 1984) and a 10 time AS but never thought of him as a HOFer. As someone mentioned before he's one of those guys who should be in the Hall of Very, Very Good.

15 years on the ballot and was consistently in the 30 and 40% range.

Numbers: Garvey vs. Helton

Helton: .316 369 HR 1406 RBI 414 OBP
Garvey: .294 272 HR 1308 RBI 329 OBP

There's plenty of examples of "very good" players who are in the Hall, Barry Larkin is one. Btw, Larkin's accomplishments look a lot like Garvey's

WS champs - 1 each
MVP - each won one
AS appearances - Larkin 12; Garvey 10
BA/Hits: Larkin 0.295/2340; Garvey 0.294/2599
RBIs: Larkin 960; Garvey 1308
Gold gloves: Larkin 3; Garvey 4

Garvey also holds the NL record for most consecutive games played

So tell me why Larkin is in the Hall and Garvey is not ?

 

[RU848789]

Waiting for that:

Helton - .316, 369 HR, 1406 RBI, 1401 Runs Scored, OBP .414 (17 years)
Mattingly - .307, 222 HR, 1099 RBI, 1007 Runs Scored, OBP .358 (14 years)

Gold Gloves - Mattingly 9, Helton 3
Silver Slugger - Mattingly 3, Helton 4
ASG - Mattingly 6, Helton 5
Top 10 MVP voting - Mattingly 4, Helton 3
Close but I give the slight nod to Helton. Health issues held back Donny but most people in the East don't realize how good Helton was.

Helton should get in, as should Kent, IMO...

 

[shields]

Larkin hit .295 for a shortstop. Besides Jeter what shortstop had a higher batting average than him in last 30 years? Ripken hit .276 for example. And the Gold Gloves? ozzie Smith was playing at the same time. That is like saying why didn't a first basemen win more Gold Gloves when Keith hernandez was playing. Didn't compare stolen bases Larkin had 300 more than Garvey.

 

[Colbert17!]

There's plenty of examples of "very good" players who are in the Hall, Barry Larkin is one. Btw, Larkin's accomplishments look a lot like Garvey's

WS champs - 1 each
MVP - each won one
AS appearances - Larkin 12; Garvey 10
BA/Hits: Larkin 0.295/2340; Garvey 0.294/2599
RBIs: Larkin 960; Garvey 1308
Gold gloves: Larkin 3; Garvey 4

Garvey also holds the NL record for most consecutive games played

So tell me why Larkin is in the Hall and Garvey is not ?

It's the position they played. A first baseman usual have substanially better offensive numbers then a SS.

p.s. I don't think that Larkin should be in.

 

[shields]

How many ss have hit around .300 like Larkin? And poor Larkin had Marge Schott as an owner. Deserve points for that. Bill Maz should not be in the Hall. Schott who wondered why the team needed scouts.

 

[Colbert17!]

How many ss have hit around .300 like Larkin? And poor Larkin had Marge Schott as an owner. Deserve points for that. Bill Maz should not be in the Hall. Schott who wondered why the team needed scouts.

Larkin's career BA is .295 but thats close enough.
Jeter (.310) is the only post 1960 SS in the Hall to hit .300.

 

[RUBOB72]

I was agreeing with you. LOL

Diluted is a nice term . Just saw Shane Victorino has been placed on the H.O.F. Ballot... several Gold Gloves... several World Series... but... a decent 275 BA. 108 HR... that should not qualify anyone for the HOF.

 

[tom1944]

There's plenty of examples of "very good" players who are in the Hall, Barry Larkin is one. Btw, Larkin's accomplishments look a lot like Garvey's

WS champs - 1 each
MVP - each won one
AS appearances - Larkin 12; Garvey 10
BA/Hits: Larkin 0.295/2340; Garvey 0.294/2599
RBIs: Larkin 960; Garvey 1308
Gold gloves: Larkin 3; Garvey 4

Garvey also holds the NL record for most consecutive games played

So tell me why Larkin is in the Hall and Garvey is not ?

position played

 

[e5fdny]

position played

+1

For his spot on the field that’s a HoF resume.

 

[RUBOB72]

There is one former player many know and for me is well deserving of entry. Some will bring up his drug related issues but none was a more respected outfielder and feared batter as Dave Parker. Yes he had a downturn but did revitalize his career later on... 290BA ... 339 HR... 1493 RBI’s ...2700 Hits... and a better than average OF arm... several Gold Gloves... 2 WS ... 7 Silver Slugger Awards ... 6 teams in an 18 year career... .B1G Dave had a powerful arm in Right Field... so maybe our former resident Pittsburgh Pirate can add an opinion ? If we are putting names in I always respected him as a baseball player.May have even been MVP.

 

[tom1944]

There is one former player many know and for me is well deserving of entry. Some will bring up his drug related issues but none was a more respected outfielder and feared batter as Dave Parker. Yes he had a downturn but did revitalize his career later on... 290BA ... 339 HR... 1493 RBI’s ...2700 Hits... and a better than average OF arm... several Gold Gloves... 2 WS ... 7 Silver Slugger Awards ... 6 teams in an 18 year career... .B1G Dave had a powerful arm in Right Field... so maybe our former resident Pittsburgh Pirate can add an opinion ? If we are putting names in I always respected him as a baseball player.May have even been MVP.

I agree
We also have to consider stats in era played

 

[e5fdny]

I agree
We also have to consider stats in era played

And because of those actual stats I do think he falls a little short...

I think if the avg. and HRs (maybe 400?) were a little higher he would have been in and nobody would have blinked.

 

[RUBOB72]

And because of those actual stats I do think he falls a little short...

I think if the avg. and HRs (maybe 400?) were a little higher he would have been in and nobody would have blinked.

While I disagree with the BA and HR ...Parker was a dominant player in an era of dominant players... Where he lost out is the time he struggled with addiction. To his credit he made great strides to regain some things. I wonder what Zap thinks about Parker.

 

[Phi_1055]

While I disagree with the BA and HR ...Parker was a dominant player in an era of dominant players... Where he lost out is the time he struggled with addiction. To his credit he made great strides to regain some things. I wonder what Zap thinks about Parker.

He was well on his way to the HOF before he lost those years.

 

[shields]

Ball Parks were bigger in those days also.

 

[tom1944]

While I disagree with the BA and HR ...Parker was a dominant player in an era of dominant players... Where he lost out is the time he struggled with addiction. To his credit he made great strides to regain some things. I wonder what Zap thinks about Parker.

I think I recall zap saying Parker was as good a player as there was in the league

 

[DJ Spanky]

I'm shocked former Mets pitcher Sidd Finch hasn't been considered by the Veterans Committee.

 

[e5fdny]

While I disagree with the BA and HR ...Parker was a dominant player in an era of dominant players... Where he lost out is the time he struggled with addiction. To his credit he made great strides to regain some things. I wonder what Zap thinks about Parker.

If he had the numbers he’d be in regardless of that.

 

[RUBOB72]

I think I recall zap saying Parker was as good a player as there was in the league

Not sure but if we want a valid opinion on Parkers’s deserving qualifications ( especially because his stats are borderline) then Zap would be able to do that. He however may choose not to get involved in that discussion and we understand that. Parker and Stargell two monsters who scared pitchers to death .

 

[RUBOB72]

If he had the numbers he’d be in regardless of that.

Not necessarily ... their are others who have been guilty with drugs or did not meet with the media’s approval who have been ostracized from the HOF... there are others who are in or have been close not of Parker’s statistical data. Ask some of the Oldtimer’s were deserving but always came up short. Not a perfect world nor fail safe system.

 

[RUBOB72]

Here are some others not in... Sammy Sosa , Raphael Palmiero, Curt Schilling ... seems those are only a few I remember ... the HR stat is not really legit especially with the steroid era fiasco. BA and RBI’s maybe even Hits are the 3 big ones for me. Those and position competency ... Gold Gloves... MVP seasons... many great players ... maybe the HOF needs some reimagining?

 

[RU Mike73]

Scott Rolen

 

[shields]

Scott Rolen has similar stats to Ron Santo who got in on the Veteran's committee.

 

[Colbert17!]

Love this discussion every year.
I start out with my thoughts and posters here have changed my mind on some things, made me rethink others and brought up names I hadn't thought of.
Thanks to all for your perspectives.

p.s. Not to speak for him but I remember in previous discussions @zappa thought Kent belonged in the Hall.

 

[e5fdny]

Not necessarily ... their are others who have been guilty with drugs or did not meet with the media’s approval who have been ostracized from the HOF... there are others who are in or have been close not of Parker’s statistical data. Ask some of the Oldtimer’s were deserving but always came up short. Not a perfect world nor fail safe system.

It’s far from perfect but if had 400 HR he would have made it at some point.

Here are some others not in... Sammy Sosa , Raphael Palmiero, Curt Schilling ... seems those are only a few I remember ... the HR stat is not really legit especially with the steroid era fiasco. BA and RBI’s maybe even Hits are the 3 big ones for me. Those and position competency ... Gold Gloves... MVP seasons... many great players ... maybe the HOF needs some reimagining?

That’s why I left off the hits and RBIs as those are comparable.

Big dude = big dingers. That’s what we expect. 400 would have done it.

The Cobra was really good.

 

[Colbert17!]

It’s far from perfect but if had 400 HR he would have made it at some point.

That’s why I left off the hits and RBIs as those are comparable.

Big dude = big dingers. That’s what we expect. 400 would have done it.

The Cobra was really good.

I watched Parker throughout his career and despite his size never thought of him as a fearsome HR hitter. Checked the stats and his high season high was 34 and in his 19 years he hit over 25 just four times. Jeez, some of these guys now hit that before the AS break.
Parker wasn't really a home run hitter but he was a HOF hitter IMHO.

 

[e5fdny]

I watched Parker throughout his career and despite his size never thought of him as a fearsome HR hitter. Checked the stats and his high season was 34 and in his 19 years he hit over 25 just four times. Jeez, some of these guys now hit that before the AS break.
Parker wasn't really a home run hitter but he was a HOF hitter IMHO.

I know it’s not fair but we kinda expect that from guys that big.

And agree with you and @RUBOB72 on his hitting...2700 hits and almost 1500 RBIs is up there.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Attitude, like Bell will not help him here.

Belle. Formerly known as Joey Belle

 

[RUBOB72]

It’s far from perfect but if had 400 HR he would have made it at some point.

That’s why I left off the hits and RBIs as those are comparable.

Big dude = big dingers. That’s what we expect. 400 would have done it.

The Cobra was really good.

Mays ,Aaron ,Mantle were not overly big by any means. Mick was more like Trout though Trout is heavier.All were very strong in a natural sense. Size is great but overly touted.

 

[e5fdny]

Mays ,Aaron ,Mantle were not overly big by any means. Mick was more like Trout though Trout is heavier.All were very strong in a natural sense. Size is great but overly touted.

Hey, I said it’s not fair...lol

 

[Colbert17!]

Mays ,Aaron ,Mantle were not overly big by any means. Mick was more like Trout though Trout is heavier.All were very strong in a natural sense. Size is great but overly touted.

Yeah but look at Mick's back. It's about a mile and a half across his shoulders.

 

[Colbert17!]

My other favorite who I think belongs is Fred McGriff.

Numbers compared to others who are in.

McGriff - .284 BA HITS 2490 493 HR 1550 RBI .377 OBP .509 SLG

Bagwell - .297 BA HITS 2314 449 HR 1529 RBI .408 OBP .540 SLG
Cepeda - .297 BA HITS 2351 379 HR 1365 RBI .353 OBP .499 SLG



Crime Dog is as good or better then both of these guys. His problem was that he played clean during the steroid era which made his numbers look less by comparison. during his time. Ironically I think he and McGwire are the only players to lead both leagues in HRs during their careers. McGriff with Toronto and San Diego and McGwire with Oakland and St. Louis. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that.
10 years on the ballot and was consistently in the teens and twenties of voting percentage. Ridiculous.