Talk to us about all the ones you've asked. Unanimous for a relief pitcher who only led his league in saves three times in his whole career? Listen, I know you are upset that your Murderer's Row got royally thumped by the BoSox. But to put a reliever in as the first unanimous HOF? That's hilarious even for a Yankee fan.
OT: Mariano Rivera
- Thread starter miker183
- Start date
Leading the league in saves is a ridiculous barometer
Should an RP be faulted if he plays on very good teams who routinely wins by more than 3 runs?
Not your best showIng here
Rivera save percentage: 89.1%
Hoffman save percentage: 88.8%
I'm simply making the argument that contrary to Yankee fandom, Rivera was not head and shoulders the best closer ever. Hoffman is a close second. Rivera does not deserve the honor of being the first unanimous selection to the HOF. He is simply the best in this next lot to be elected. He only had the most saves three times in his career.
Good lord. No team routinely wins by more than 3 runs in baseball. None of the twelve most common scores in baseball in the past century is a win of more than 3 runs. Rivera's opportunities were only limited by his arm being ready, same as any other ace reliever.
Yankee fans. 100% fact free.
Lowest post-season ERA in the history of MLB (0.70)
141.1 innings pitched
Mo = Greatest overall reliever/closer ever and the greatest post-season pitcher in history.
#unanimous
No question he was the greatest reliever ever. The question is whether he should be the first unanimous choice for HOF. And since Hoffman was close to him, and Kimbrel is on track to surpass him, the answer is a simple "no." Much of his accomplishment is longevity. Only led the league three times. Hard to be called dominant. Reliable? Sure.
Hoffman wasn't close. Mo had a better ERA, WHIP, WAR, more titles, WS MVPs and had a legendary 0.77 ERA in the postseason. Mariano Rivera is a legend while Trevor Hoffman is a footnote. Seriously Trevor Hoffman is more known for being 2nd to Mariano, than his own accolades.
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Nobody is saying Rivera wasn't better than Hoffman. Just not by a lot. He played for much better teams. And he blew a critical game or so in his career. Ask the Diamondback fans.
Here's the point, once again: He deserves to be a first ballot HOF. No question. Does he deserve the unique honor of being the first unanimous choice for the HOF. No way. He's barely in the top 50 players in the history of the game.
I don't get your point, voters vote either yes or no. If you don't think it should be unanimous, it you means that you think that there is merit in anyone saying no, which is ********.
The prestige of a unanimous HOFer is a made up accolade by stubborn and self inflated sports writers.
It is by a lot and I just explained how. Mariano bests him in every basic, advanced and team metric. It's not close.
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There are others who should have been. Since they weren’t not sure there is anybody yet who should.
But he is easily one of those were you don’t have to even think for second if he is a HoFer.
But he is easily one of those were you don’t have to even think for second if he is a HoFer.
The reality is that no one has ever gotten it, so it is a special honor. One that Rivera doesn't rise to. It's that simple. So wait for someone better. Chipper Jones, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and certainly Ken Griffey, Jr. -- all better ball players. If not them, not Rivera.
As to the metrics, the key ones are # of saves and % saves. And here they are practically indistinguishable, especially if you account for opportunities. It is what it is. Mariano better and the best of all time. But a position of relatively minor importance, and not worthy of this honor.
Where your argument falls short though is longevity. Hoffman was not the best for that long; Rivera came into the league with basically two pitches. Fifteen years later it was the same, and most still couldn't make solid contact.
I will not debate Rivera's place among RPs. He is clearly the best ever. But I just don't see closer as nearly as important as other positions. Edgar Martinez is, by far, the best DH of all time. Should he be unanimous?
Your not voting on whether or not he should be unanimous, each voter
is to vote on whether or not he is should be a hall of famer, one vote that is
it. I can't see a voter saying he shouldn't be a unanimous choice, so I'll be the one to say no. If he is not a hall of famer, then there is no such thing.
it may depend. Craig Kimbrel is 30 yrs old with 333 saves. He averages 42 a year. He is the closest active player to Mariano who pitched 19 years and has 652 saves or 34 per year.
If there are 1-2 sportswriters that think Mariano's stats are more about compiling because of the 34 save avg then they may vote no for the 1st ballot preventing unanimous.
For Kimbrel to get to 652 over the next 9 years he would need to avg about 35 saves a year. He is 319 behind. Of course if he has a 3 season span where he averages 45 saves a season then he would need to average 30-31 a season over 6 years to pass Mariano.
If there are 1-2 sportswriters that think Mariano's stats are more about compiling because of the 34 save avg then they may vote no for the 1st ballot preventing unanimous.
For Kimbrel to get to 652 over the next 9 years he would need to avg about 35 saves a year. He is 319 behind. Of course if he has a 3 season span where he averages 45 saves a season then he would need to average 30-31 a season over 6 years to pass Mariano.
Your argument is much stronger advocating for Kimbrel to be unanimous if he continues at his current pace than advocating Rivera be denied because of the POSSIBILITY that someone in the future beats his record.
Skillet I always find you to be one of the most thoughtful posters on the board. How you can equate a player who essentially shortens the offensive game of opponents by over 10% (3/27 outs) to that of a long snapper is shocking.
There have been plenty of "Kimbrel's" that never approach Mo's career. Tons. Wait for another 7-8 seasons and see where he is at. He also currently has a 3.92 ERA in the post season, so even at this stage of his career, he doesn't come close to Mo.
I’m not a Yankee fan at all but the arguments against in this thread are comical.
Stats aside, it can easily be argued Mo was the most important Yankee during his career. Maybe the most important player in the league during that time as well.
And yeah, he is just a RP but no one is even close. There are times stats get thrown away and you just go by the eyeball test.
The only argument that is valid that if Mays, Aaron, Gibson, Seaver and the guys like that we’re not unanimous, then no one should be.
Stats aside, it can easily be argued Mo was the most important Yankee during his career. Maybe the most important player in the league during that time as well.
And yeah, he is just a RP but no one is even close. There are times stats get thrown away and you just go by the eyeball test.
The only argument that is valid that if Mays, Aaron, Gibson, Seaver and the guys like that we’re not unanimous, then no one should be.
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No he is not. That fool was actually comparing Hoffman to Mo.
Huh? Hoffman had at least 30 saves in 14 different years (Rivera: 15 years). Hoffman had 31 saves in 95 and 37 saves 15 years later.
That was a joke at T2K. His signature move is to make absolutely outrageous claims and I was merely putting one back in his court. (See, for example, his claim that Aaron Judge is the next Babe Ruth.) Obviously closing is an important role. Would go for a good closer probably before my fourth best starter.
Always good to throw away the data and just argue from emotions. The fact is that Hoffman was close to Rivera over roughly the same time period. He just didn't play for the Yankees. Had he, he might have exceeded Rivera's totals.
I'm intrigued. Can you show me where I am not making sense (except of course, in bothering to argue with Yankee fans)? My points:
1. Rivera best closer ever.
2. Hoffman a close second.
3. Rivera only marginally a top 50 all time player.
4. Closer is not one of the top half dozen positions on a baseball team.
5. Nobody has ever been a unanimous HOF choice, not even Griffey Jr. recently.
6. Hence, Rivera should not be the first unanimous HOF choice.
It would seem to me that the only thing one could possibly contest is #2. And with Craig Kimbrel looking more impressive at the same point in his career, best ever reliever might not be a title Rivera holds in a few years.
I have to get less subtle with my jokes. I've followed teams with good closers and bad for 60 years. Obviously you have to have a good closer. And Rivera was the best. But Hoffman was close to him and Kimbrel may well surpass all of them. My point is simple: Rivera was not exceptional enough to get the unique honor of being the first unanimous HOF selection. I mean, if you were drafting a club today based on career records, would you start with Rivera or Griffey Jr.?
Dad would say I’ll take both.
He’d also take DiMaggio over Williams and Mantle.
Musial and Mays in the NL were better than all three of them... lol
I was only about 11 when Musial retired. Why do you rank him so high? I think I can understand DiMaggio over Williams and Mantle, although like you I am too young to have seen DiMaggio; he was a better fielder than either. One newspaper guy once grumbled, "I've been watching DiMaggio in center for ten years, and I've never seen him have a hard play yet!" DiMaggio just made center field look easy, or at least as easy as it could be in the huge Yankee Stadium outfield.
So, what you are really saying is that if guys like Gibson, Mays, Aaron etc could not get unanimous, no one should unless they do a Ruth or Gretzky...and that isn’t happening...