OT: Official 2018 World Cup Thread

RutgHoops

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Aug 14, 2008
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I would love to see Neymar get a yellow for his antics during this game today and not be able to play in the semi final game should Brazil win. Talk about poetic justice. I know I shouldn’t think like that but it is what it is lol!

"I find the “diving” conversation tiresome, as it often stems from some version of toxic masculinity that values toughness above all else. And it rarely ever takes into consideration all of the underhanded **** that defenders are allowed to get away with on a weekly basis. Sports are theater, but that doesn’t mean they need to be a morality play."

https://www.theringer.com/soccer/20...terfinal-brazil-belgium-england-france-neymar
 

MadRU

Heisman
Jul 26, 2001
38,656
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"I find the “diving” conversation tiresome, as it often stems from some version of toxic masculinity that values toughness above all else. And it rarely ever takes into consideration all of the underhanded **** that defenders are allowed to get away with on a weekly basis. Sports are theater, but that doesn’t mean they need to be a morality play."

https://www.theringer.com/soccer/20...terfinal-brazil-belgium-england-france-neymar

Johan Cruyff, arguably the greatest European player of all time, don't recall him diving like Neymar.

VAR should stop some of this, and maybe if they add new rules that refs can go back after watching video and card or penalize a player for "embellishing" then it might stop.
 
Dec 17, 2008
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AreYouNUTS

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Aug 1, 2001
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"I find the “diving” conversation tiresome, as it often stems from some version of toxic masculinity that values toughness above all else. And it rarely ever takes into consideration all of the underhanded **** that defenders are allowed to get away with on a weekly basis. Sports are theater, but that doesn’t mean they need to be a morality play."

https://www.theringer.com/soccer/20...terfinal-brazil-belgium-england-france-neymar

Defense is defense. Going down because you get hit hard is finer. Rolling around crying like a ***** for 5-minutes when absolutely ‘nothing happened to you is a whole Nother conversation. There are nations and coaches that won’t even allow their players to do the **** Neymar tries to pull off.
 
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mildone_rivals

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Dec 19, 2011
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We may not be be good and I don't watch all the time but I don't notice US players doing any of this stuff, certainly not regularly.
While I share your dislike of dives, having played, coached and been an avid fan of soccer most of my life, I recognize that there are some valid reasons to exaggerate contact (mostly drawing the ref's attention - it's a big field with a lot going on).

Where things start to really suck is when players simulate the contact entirely, and that's always been a bit of a problem for as long as I can remember. It's nothing new to this world cup, although people invariably, in every world cup, think that this world cup is the worst one yet.

In terms of international play, over the years, U.S. players have taken their fair share of dives, just like any other country. Not necessarily Neymar-like theatrics, which are counter-productive, but that degree of acting is usually reserved to a couple or few players per world cup.

Like most sports, all country's players do their best to work the boundaries of the laws of the game to their advantage. Some players (Neymar) go overboard on it, and those are what people tend to focus on. OTOH, players like Neymar are also getting hit harder and more frequently than other players, and so they are fighting back. Ronaldo used to overly dramatize dives too; he seemed more muted in this world cup.
 
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While I share your dislike of dives, having played, coached and been an avid fan of soccer most of my life, I recognize that there are some valid reasons to exaggerate contact (mostly drawing the ref's attention - it's a big field with a lot going on).

Where things start to really suck is when players simulate the contact entirely, and that's always been a bit of a problem for as long as I can remember. It's nothing new to this world cup, although people invariably, in every world cup, think that this world cup is the worst one yet.

In terms of international play, over the years, U.S. players have taken their fair share of dives, just like any other country. Not necessarily Neymar-like theatrics, which are counter-productive, but that degree of acting is usually reserved to a couple or few players per world cup.

Like most sports, all country's players do their best to work the boundaries of the laws of the game to their advantage. Some players (Neymar) go overboard on it, and those are what people tend to focus on. OTOH, players like Neymar are also getting hit harder and more frequently than other players, and so they are fighting back. Ronaldo used to overly dramatize dives too; he seemed more muted in this world cup.
I agree there are degrees and I think that article I posted made some good points. I can see the validity of drawing attention from the refs. I suppose with the ref in the middle of the field it's hard for a coach to work the ref from the sidelines. Language barriers could be an issue too.

It's the dramatics I'm not a fan of and I think retroactively penalizing players for it would curb much if not all of it. The cameras catch almost everything. In game it might get addressed or might not even with VAR but post game it surely can be addressed and hopefully would be in the back of players minds.

I don't even like those "tactical" fouls mentioned above but that's not something I'd card or penalize but just something I'd hope the ref would differentiate between hard contact that's a foul and someone knowing contact is likely but going down on light contact and making it look good.

I have seen Ronaldo do the dramatics at times too, don't remember Messi doing it much though could be wrong. I don't think this World Cup is the worst in terms of diving, Italy isn't here lol, but I'm just reminded of it because I'm actually watching soccer for a prolonged period during a tournament like this, that's all.

On to the game today! Rooting for Belgium slightly more but if France wins I'm good. I want the winner of this game to take it all.
 

mildone_rivals

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I agree there are degrees and I think that article I posted made some good points. I can see the validity of drawing attention from the refs. I suppose with the ref in the middle of the field it's hard for a coach to work the ref from the sidelines. Language barriers could be an issue too.

It's the dramatics I'm not a fan of and I think retroactively penalizing players for it would curb much if not all of it. The cameras catch almost everything. In game it might get addressed or might not even with VAR but post game it surely can be addressed and hopefully would be in the back of players minds.

I don't even like those "tactical" fouls mentioned above but that's not something I'd card or penalize but just something I'd hope the ref would differentiate between hard contact that's a foul and someone knowing contact is likely but going down on light contact and making it look good.

I have seen Ronaldo do the dramatics at times too, don't remember Messi doing it much though could be wrong. I don't think this World Cup is the worst in terms of diving, Italy isn't here lol, but I'm just reminded of it because I'm actually watching soccer for a prolonged period during a tournament like this, that's all.

On to the game today! Rooting for Belgium slightly more but if France wins I'm good. I want the winner of this game to take it all.
Totally agree that games should be reviewed after the fact and anybody taking an outright dive, where they totally simulate the contact, should be penalized with a game suspension (like a red card). Like you, I think doing that would put an end to the practice of pure dives.

Where there is contact, even sometimes light contact, and a player hams it up some, I would not penalize them (up to a point, Neymar's rolling all over the field like a honey-soaked person on a fire-ant hill was ridiculous). The reason is that a good defender can use even light contact to create a massive advantage in one on one play. Refs generally let those things go, and it's up to the attacking player to know the contact is coming and be ready for it. But sometimes, there's no being prepared. In those scenarios, the attacking player's only defense is to exaggerate the contact.

Also agree that Messi has never been one to take dives or to even exaggerate slight fouls. Actually, in some cases, I've seen him leverage contact to gain an advantage - he allows defenders to unbalance themselves in their attempt to foul him, then rides out the foul and carries on. But he's truly special in his situational awareness abilities. Most players, even at that level, simply cannot do what he can do. I also suspect, as he ages, he'll no longer be as good at that.
 

RUChoppin

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As a very casual fan, a question for those who are much closer to the sport....

Would additional refs on the field help? It seems like a lot of the embellishment/diving/etc is because the field is very large and it's impossible for the ref to see all the fouls that are legitimately happening. If there were 2-3 more sets of eyes on the field, would the game get cleaned up more?
 
Dec 17, 2008
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As a very casual fan, a question for those who are much closer to the sport....

Would additional refs on the field help? It seems like a lot of the embellishment/diving/etc is because the field is very large and it's impossible for the ref to see all the fouls that are legitimately happening. If there were 2-3 more sets of eyes on the field, would the game get cleaned up more?
I'm not knowledgeable enough but I've thought of that with regards to fouls and offsides calls. I mean look how many officials there are in American football. A soccer pitch is much bigger and a lot of ground to cover and there are less refs covering it. I don't think anything would change but it's something that's crossed this pedestrian soccer fan's mind as well.
 

mildone_rivals

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Dec 19, 2011
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As a very casual fan, a question for those who are much closer to the sport....

Would additional refs on the field help? It seems like a lot of the embellishment/diving/etc is because the field is very large and it's impossible for the ref to see all the fouls that are legitimately happening. If there were 2-3 more sets of eyes on the field, would the game get cleaned up more?
It might. But I don't think the game is bad as it is. There are issues with every sport, people always attempt to push the boundaries.

I think the answer to the simulation problem is for refs to be more strict about penalizing them. Can't just start doing that at the level of international play, but if it was started in league play, and the players get accustomed to it, it can then happen in international games as well.

It's hard for a ref to be positive about foul simulations in the game, and you don't want to red-card a player and find out you were wrong about it. But an after-game review and game suspensions would fix it.
 

RUnTeX

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A soccer pitch is much bigger and a lot of ground to cover and there are less refs covering it.

Fewer refs in American football would be better....a few too many in my mind. But inclined to agree that a couple more in soccer could probably help...perhaps one more covering only one half of the field would provide more proximate coverage of the whole pitch. That said, because the play is more open/random and can change more quickly in variety of directions, ref positioning is not as rigid as in American football and it would take more careful effort for refs on the pitch to not get caught interfering with ball or player movement.

To clarify, a soccer field is only just a little wider and the same length as a football field, so it's not larger by much.
 

RUChoppin

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One difference with gridiron football vs. soccer is that most of the field is not used on each play, so the focus of the refs can be limited to a certain area of the field. Also, plays are more structured with stops/starts, between which players are separated by the line of scrimmage.

Soccer is much more freeform, and is probably bears more similarities to basketball, where play changes more freely from offense to defense and players are continually intermingled and can foul almost anywhere on the court at any time.

Basketball has the same number of officials (3)... on a far smaller patch of real estate with fewer players. And they still miss calls, which has also led to flopping and embellishment.

It just seems to me that there isn't enough monitoring of all the action in soccer - which prompts players to add theatrics to draw the ref's eye, especially away from the ball.
 

RUnTeX

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In those scenarios, the attacking player's only defense is to exaggerate the contact.

Respectfully disagree. I think if the offensive player just played through light (or even no) contact then the majority of the time they'd continue to maintain an advantageous position rather than killing a potential play or taking themselves unnecessarily out of a play by falling over for no reason. Frustrating to watch grown men act like sissies when we know most of them aren't.
 

RUChoppin

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Respectfully disagree. I think if the offensive player just played through light (or even no) contact then the majority of the time they'd continue to maintain an advantageous position rather than killing a potential play or taking themselves unnecessarily out of a play by falling over for no reason. Frustrating to watch grown men act like sissies.

This goes back to the point of the article that was posted.

It's okay for a defensive player to gain advantage by fouling, but not okay for an offensive player to gain advantage by drawing foul calls.

If a player is continually getting fouled while attacking, and the refs aren't calling it (because they've been conditioned to only call "real" fouls where a player is knocked down), then it behooves players to fall down when fouled.

If the refs called fouls without players getting knocked down, then they'd be less inclined to fall down to get the foul call.

Bad player behavior is largely the product of bad officiating.
 

RUnTeX

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It's okay for a defensive player to gain advantage by fouling,

Well, I'm talking about light contact which I wouldn't consider a foul to begin with so my definition is not as generous, let alone no contact (obviously should not be a foul by anyone's definition). I think most yellow cards called in today's game during course of play should just be regular fouls. Hence my issue is more a structural one in the way the game is officiated.
 

mildone_rivals

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Respectfully disagree. I think if the offensive player just played through light (or even no) contact then the majority of the time they'd continue to maintain an advantageous position rather than killing a potential play or taking themselves unnecessarily out of a play by falling over for no reason. Frustrating to watch grown men act like sissies.
While I agree that sometimes players exaggerate incidental contact they shouldn't, the effect of light contact can be very deceiving.

First, in soccer, you can hit another player sending him flying and it might even not be a foul, according to the laws of the game. If a defender is attempting to fight for the ball, and uses shoulder to shoulder contact from the sides, and if the attacking player has at least one foot on the ground, it's not a foul even when the contact is quite violent. You might see it called by youth soccer officials. But normally, no contact like that would be called in professional or international matches.

So there is plenty of legal hard contact. However, there are several light-touch techniques, that are not legal, with which I make it much easier to dispossess you of the ball, or to unfairly interfere with your attempts to shoot or pass the ball. It is all about unbalancing a player unfairly vs. fairly.

You are talking about it as if it's a macho thing, where being fouled lightly and reacting is being a sissy. But it's not about manliness. It's about physics. And in soccer, physics makes it very easy to unfairly unbalance an attacking player because the attacking player is frequently on one foot while the other foot is busy with the ball.

Many of these light touch fouls can and do go unseen and uncalled by the ref. That gives defenders a huge advantage.

The attackers in soccer aren't out there to prove their manliness through suffering through light fouls. They are out there to win games. So if exaggerating light-contact, yet effective, fouls is necessary to get the ref to call some of them, then that's what the players have to do. Generally speaking, if an attacking player doesn't "help the ref" make the call, they won't ever make it as far as getting chosen to play on anybody's pro or international roster.

You don't see defenders doing it as much because, if they get it wrong and the ref doesn't call it, they leave their side in a numbers-down situation on the wrong end of the field and risk giving up a goal.
 

RUChoppin

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Well, I'm talking about light contact which I wouldn't consider a foul to begin with so my definition is not as generous, let alone no contact (obviously should not be a foul by anyone's definition). I think most yellow cards called in today's game during course of play should just be regular fouls. Hence my issue is more a structural one in the way the game is officiated.

Totally agree on the no contact, and on incidental contact. But frequently it's more significant contact that gets let go - contact that impedes or impacts a player's movement.

It's all goes back to bad officiating, though. If officials miss real, legitimate fouls and only call a foul or pull a card when there's a big display... then players will try to get fouls or cards even on incidental (or no) contact.

Players (especially pros) will exploit anything they can for an edge - and bad officiating is definitely a target. Look at Harden - that grab-the-defenders-arm-and-huck-a-three nonsense he's practically patented should be an offensive foul, but he gets three shot fouls all the time by doing it. It's just a way to exploit poor officiating.

Diving in soccer is in that same vein.
 
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While I agree that sometimes players exaggerate incidental contact they shouldn't, the effect of light contact can be very deceiving.

First, in soccer, you can hit another player sending him flying and it might even not be a foul, according to the laws of the game. If a defender is attempting to fight for the ball, and uses shoulder to shoulder contact from the sides, and if the attacking player has at least one foot on the ground, it's not a foul even when the contact is quite violent. You might see it called by youth soccer officials. But normally, no contact like that would be called in professional or international matches.

So there is plenty of legal hard contact. However, there are several light-touch techniques, that are not legal, with which I make it much easier to dispossess you of the ball, or to unfairly interfere with your attempts to shoot or pass the ball. It is all about unbalancing a player unfairly vs. fairly.

You are talking about it as if it's a macho thing, where being fouled lightly and reacting is being a sissy. But it's not about manliness. It's about physics. And in soccer, physics makes it very easy to unfairly unbalance an attacking player because the attacking player is frequently on one foot while the other foot is busy with the ball.

Many of these light touch fouls can and do go unseen and uncalled by the ref. That gives defenders a huge advantage.

The attackers in soccer aren't out there to prove their manliness through suffering through light fouls. They are out there to win games. So if exaggerating light-contact, yet effective, fouls is necessary to get the ref to call some of them, then that's what the players have to do. Generally speaking, if an attacking player doesn't "help the ref" make the call, they won't ever make it as far as getting chosen to play on anybody's pro or international roster.

You don't see defenders doing it as much because, if they get it wrong and the ref doesn't call it, they leave their side in a numbers-down situation on the wrong end of the field and risk giving up a goal.
Good points on balance and I'd say momentum too with regards to "light" fouling. Not always in the forefront of my mind when I'm watching.
 
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mildone_rivals

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Good points on balance and I'd say momentum too with regards to "light" fouling. Not always in the forefront of my mind when I'm watching.
Totally understand that.

When the game is played without a lot of cheap fouls and dives, it's such a beautiful, flowing sport, especially when played at the highest levels (which is, IMO, UEFA Champions League). When teams foul constantly or dive too much, it kills the games.

Unfortunately, it's always going to be with us and we need to rely on the refs to do their best to mitigate it - which isn't a very easy task.
 
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Dec 17, 2008
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Nice touch by De Bruyne even though the shot missed. I tell ya these top teams/players have good vision awareness of where they are, where their teammates are or might be going.

It's kind of what you see in basketball here and what I think we kind of lack in our soccer team.
 
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From what I've seen in this World Cup, I think France has looked the best and I think they're a good all around team. Good solid defense, good GK, good on set pieces, nice on the counter, etc..

They're going to have withstand the last Belgian push though in these last minutes.
 
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Mbappe doing the nonsense again and I like his play too, it's a shame. This is what I'm saying with regards to his dramatic garbage in the last game. It's hard to think of those kind of things as a one time things. It's either part of your persona or it doesn't come up in your mind at all.

And he's done it again going down on a touch by the Belgian player. I'm starting not to like him the more I see.
 

AreYouNUTS

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France...eh...doesn’t excite me. Suffice to say I’ll be rooting for tomorrow’s winner in the final!
 
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France...eh...doesn’t excite me. Suffice to say I’ll be rooting for tomorrow’s winner in the final!
I'm the opposite was rooting for the winner of today's game to win it all, but preferred Belgium slightly.

Mbappe a player I was really liking turning into a player I'm really not liking starting to make it a little difficult though. I see he's got great talent, potential, plays with pace and skill and then has to make me not like him with his dramatics and the time wasting garbage with the ball, etc..
 

RUbacker

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I'm the opposite was rooting for the winner of today's game to win it all, but preferred Belgium slightly.

Mbappe a player I was really liking turning into a player I'm really not liking starting to make it a little difficult though. I see he's got great talent, potential, plays with pace and skill and then has to make me not like him with his dramatics and the time wasting garbage with the ball, etc..
F the French !
 

RU848789

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Just finished watching - wow, what an entertaining match! Really well played by both teams, with some great passing, defense, and saves by both keepers. Belgium just couldn't make that last pass to get a goal and France's defense had a lot to do with that. Was dying for Belgium to tie it up, so we could see 30 more minutes of play. Hope tomorrow's game is a good one. Would love to see England win - England vs. France would be an epic final.
 

AreYouNUTS

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Just finished watching - wow, what an entertaining match! Really well played by both teams, with some great passing, defense, and saves by both keepers. Belgium just couldn't make that last pass to get a goal and France's defense had a lot to do with that. Was dying for Belgium to tie it up, so we could see 30 more minutes of play. Hope tomorrow's game is a good one. Would love to see England win - England vs. France would be an epic final.

Disagree RE: the “last pass” ..it was made very late, and perfectly, but Lukaku wasn’t ready for the cross (as he seemed to not be most of the match).
 

rudad02

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You don't see the women falling down, wincing, yelling, groaning. Much tougher. Go watch the RU Women. Tough, tough. As are all the women's teams. They really have to be hurt to go down. Men are a bunch of pansies.
 

RUbacker

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Just finished watching - wow, what an entertaining match! Really well played by both teams, with some great passing, defense, and saves by both keepers. Belgium just couldn't make that last pass to get a goal and France's defense had a lot to do with that. Was dying for Belgium to tie it up, so we could see 30 more minutes of play. Hope tomorrow's game is a good one. Would love to see England win - England vs. France would be an epic final.
Couple of bad no calls on France very late in the match that could have been game changer.