When you can't use facts to sell your program, you've got to be able to create the vision, sell the vision, and get recruits to believe in the vision. More difficult to get people to believe in the abstract, but it's possible. Schiano selling Jeremy Zuttah, Ray Rice and Anthony Davis are great examples. Zuttah and Davis had OSU offers, but chose Rutgers, thx to Schianos salesmanship.
What is Chris Ash's Vision??
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When you can't use facts to sell your program, you've got to be able to create the vision, sell the vision, and get recruits to believe in the vision. More difficult to get people to believe in the abstract, but it's possible. Schiano selling Jeremy Zuttah, Ray Rice and Anthony Davis are great examples. Zuttah and Davis had OSU offers, but chose Rutgers, thx to Schianos salesmanship.
Al,you want facts...what was Schiano's record hus first 3 years. And as I also mentioned when a new coach comes in to any school where will his main contacts br or include his first couple of years. Greg came from Miami and had established Florida contacts. Ash came from the Midwest and initially worked those contacts and moved on from there. Those are the factd you continuosly ignore. I hate to slam but you continuosly ask for it with some of idiotic ********. If you.are so enamored with Fleck then root for Minnesota. You'll be a lot happier.
No, because Schiano was building a program from scratch, and I knew it would take time. Just like with Ash, I felt Schiano deserved his full five years. Schianos recruiting strategy is something I had great faith in.
3 or 4 wins and recruiting will get worse and ST will continue to decline. How was Graber able to win 6 games his second year including a signature win over MSU on the road ? I'll tell you how, when he got hired he hit the ground running and consequently was able to flip a few recruits like Malik Jackson of Elizabeth. Ash's signature win thus far is Illinois. Sad.
Yeah but he started having winning years after Vs Tech and Miami left the Big East. I don't Michigan and Ohio State leaving the Big Ten anytime soon. Any with Michigan State, Penn State, and the others as well, this current rebuild from major flood damage is a little tougher. At least Ash has tried to correct his mistakes and is not stubborn to adjust to the situation.
Granted his seat is white hot if he don't get to 6 wins this season. But to say he has no idea what he is doing is disingenuous.
You can say BS a 100 times, but it doesn't make your argument any stronger.
It is understandable for Ash to work his midwest contacts, year 1, year 2, and year 3. But when you look at your results, and they show 1 recruit in three years worth of effort, its not the best application of resources to work the midwest in year 4. That's a very poor ROI. It is flat out ridiculous to compete with 12 other Midwest Big Ten Schools who are likely held in better regard than Rutgers, for Midwest recruits, and that's why we're showing such poor results. And Ash has not moved on from the Midwest, as assistants are still making visits in places like Ohio, etc.
If you want to fish, you have to go where the fish are, and Florida has been a significantly more fruitful fishing ground for Rutgers than the Midwest. That's why it makes more sense to recruit Florida, where we have seen more success.
Stop acting like building Florida HS Coaching contacts is rocket science. Just about every Big Ten School recruited Florida in 2017. How were all those coaches able to build their Florida contacts and why is it so difficult for Chris Ash to do the same? Its true that establishing contacts, relationships, and building trust in what would be a new area for him, would require more effort and hard work. But just about every other Big 10 School recruited Florida in 2017, especially Penn State, Maryland, Ohio State, and Michigan. This team badly needs Florida speed and Florida playmakers, especially with Janarion Grant moving on.
If you don't understand that Schiano and Ash started at vastly different points, then there's nothing I can do to help you. Ash has much more to sell:
- an expanded Rutgers Stadium with suites
- Block R has provided Rutgers with brand recognition across New Jersey
- facilities used for training table
- an outdoor practice facility
- strong academic support with history of success
- Big Ten Conference (competition against the Best)
- expanded Hale Center with Big Ten Competitive Weight Room including equipment
- history of modest success; went to bowl games from 2005-2014, excluding '10, '15, '16,'17
- impressive amount of NFL alumni seeing success (ie Devin McCourty)
Despite all his advantages, there's a real chance that Ash's Year 3 will be similar to Schiano's. At best, maybe 1 win better. And that is disappointing because I expected us to be further along. Schiano had to do much more in his first three years than Ash had to do in his.
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With Greg you could almost see and feel it coming and growing...when he left it was a near fatal feeling...he was a year or two from completing the foundation of a real yearly top 20 style program yearly...you could taste it...feel it..it was in reach..how untimely his leaving was here for FB..some of us 64+ fans will never recover that much hope again..I considered myself fortunate to be here to see our gain in stature !!
Never said I thought he didn't know what he was doing. But I do think his recruiting strategy is not optimal. I think he's working hard, but needs to work smart, especially with regards to the areas he chooses to recruit.
I would agree that the competition is tougher than what Schiano faced. But that's why our recruiting needs to get better, to meet the challenge.
From 2005 up until Marc Richt was Coach, Miami was very mediocre, and we would have had a fair chance of beating them. In fact, Louisville beat Miami in 2006, 31-7, and likely would have beaten Virginia Tech, too. In 2006, we likely would have beaten VT but likely would have lost to them the rest of the time. Cincinnati beat us most years, though we did seem to own USF. What I'm trying to say is, don't think miami and VT leaving made much of a difference.
Al...everything you say is sound here...I could be saying the same things !! I'll say this...you see things much as I do as a fan since "61" when I was 10 years old...I've been a close observer most of the years since then until now and will never lose hope..
Overall schedule is much, much much tougher now though. In 2016 we played 2 of the Top 4 and 4 of the Top 10. Last year we played 2 teams that went to and won NY6 bowls. We now play a minimum of 10 P5 teams per season. We never did that prior to B1G play. One of the reasons we started winning with Schiano was because our schedule had room for growth. This one doesn’t; we have to rise and meet it. Apples and oranges.
Joe P.
I could taste it too. We were so close.
At Miami, Greg had developed a reputation as a "Climber", so it was actually surprising for me, that Greg remained so long. Actually, it wouldn't have surprised me to see him leave for the Miami or Michigan jobs when they came open in the 00's. After he used the Michigan offer to push the stadium expansion through, I was so thankful.
I was content that he gave us his best for 11 years, and that it was time for him to move on to an opportunity he deserved. He left us light years better than how he found us. Too bad it was for that god forsaken franchise, the bucs.
I've been a hard core follower of this program since Dick Andersen. I've followed recruiting patterns and won loss records for a long time. All I know is that this year is a huge year for Ash both on the field and in recruiting. Ash needs to put a respectable product on the field and also bring in some plan A and B recruits, instead of a lot of reaches that he's brought in his precious classes. If he doesn't do this I believe he will fail. He doesn't have the talent right now to be a middle of the pack B1G team. He needs to bring in a serious amount of talent quickly that can play right away.
Real hard core followers know it’s an “o” and not an “e” when it comes to our former coach. 
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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with al on his vision comments: I have some thoughts on that which I may share later. But Schiano's first years and Ash's first years are dichotomically different, so you can't compare them in any way, shape or form.
Just from the record stand point, a couple of facts to consider. Schiano took over from a coach that had a .200 winning record, 11-44. Although I laud the players that Schiano inherited for the effort they put forth, it was readily apparent that many of them shouldn't be playing Division 1 football. I forget whether it was his first or second year, but Schiano had a program which concentrated on how much fat the team could lose. Can you imagine that for a Division 1 football team? "What's your goal?" "To lose weight because the team's too fat!"
When we turned in a 7-5 record in 2005, it was only our 5th winning record in 25 years, the first winning season since 1992 and only the 3rd time since 1980 that we had reached more than 6 wins. And 1980 is an important watermark: on and before 1980, most of our schedule was made up of Div 1AA schools. In 1981 we cut down to having 2 on the schedule, and sometime in the mid 80's when to just 1.
So let's take a look at our record once we started winning:
Using the December end of season rankings, these are the ranked teams we played in 2005-2007, the first 3 years Schiano had winning records - the only team on this list we didn't play was Miami:
2007
5. Virginia Tech (11-2)
11. West Virginia (10-2)
20. Cincinnati (9-3)
23. South Florida (9-3)
Not Ranked: Miami
2006
5. Louisville (11–1)
13. West Virginia (10–2)
14. Virginia Tech (10–2)
Not Ranked: Miami
2005
8. Miami (FL) (9–2)
11. West Virginia (10–1)
12. Virginia Tech (10–2)
15. Louisville (9–2)
Whoops, made a mistake about VT, let me fix that.
Virginia Tech left after 03 and BC left after 04. VT won the ACC title in 2004. In 2004 the BE only had 7 teams due to the shuffling, with UConn actually moving in a year early because of it. It’s why we ended up playing a 1-and-done at Vandy.
Joe P.
Whoops, my bad, was trying to multi-task as I wrote that - I made the corresponding changes.
Schiano came into a much worse situation but did one thing much better than Ash has done. He gave the majority of the fanbase HOPE. And his recruiting was much better than Shea and he got some NJ recruits to believe in his vision for the program. We saw our recruiting improving and even though he wasn't getting it done the first few years on the field, you knew that he had players that were good developing in the program. His first year he or someone close to the program stated they only had like 4 D1 players in the program. They also put in a much better strength and conditioning program which, to quote Schiano, removed the Goo off of the players.
What would've been the record for all 3 if they had stayed in the same conference? It's not an automatic either way so that's a moot argument.
The argument is that any coach with a half of a brain would have taken advantage of 1) Rutgers moving into the Big Ten and 2) Penn State being in the position that they were in at the time. Rutgers had the coach who couldn't do neither and at the very least get the Jersey Kids to stay home. You're right that Schiano had built this Rutgers house from scratch the right way, no matter what I think of the lack of BCS Berths. But the owner of the house after him didn't keep up with the house and left cracks in the foundation, walls, windows that the current owner is still trying to fix to this day.
It's always a difficult discussion on that. Louisville and Virginia Tech were pretty much a wash. But, damn, I wish we had had Miami on the schedule in 2006 - it would have been nice to finally get a win over them, which I think we would have.
Not just NJ and Florida but the state of Rutgers and Florida.
The state of Rutgers+Florida recruiting strategy had been very successful for us for about 15 years. Ash came in with his own philosophy which included recruiting the Midwest and Georgia. It's been three years and there has been very little in the way of results from the Midwest and Georgia. No sense in banging your head and expecting different results doing the same thing. Just as Ash has reverted the offense back to the pro style, he should also revert his recruiting strategy back to the state of Rutgers+Florida. Doing so will allow him to improve the efficiency of his recruiting.
NJ needs to be our primary recruiting territory, after all we're the state university, and we can get a better recruit here than anywhere else, thx to proximity. While it's difficult for us to compete for NJ recruits #1-#10, we need to do better with NJ recruits #11-30. This is where you'll afind we're mostly competing with the Boston Colleges, Syracuse, and NC States. Solid recruits like Jarrett Paul are what we need more of.
Florida should be our next go-to spot for recruits. If Kyle Flood was able to produce results from Florida, Chris Ash can produce results from Florida if he chooses to do so. Florida produces upwards of 270-300 DIv I recruits, with many going to the Big Ten. The caliber of HS Football there is arguably the best in the country, which is why a number of our recruits were able to impact as freshman. Janarion Grant, Josh Hicks, Tim Brown, Ryan Hart, Tres Moses, and others are examples.
Sprinkle in a few more recruits from NY, Pa, Md,DE, CT plus maybe a few from outlier places like CA, SC if needed, and we'd be all set.
Our 2017 class geographic distribution resembles more of a Terry Shea class than a Greg Schiano class, with 6 recruits from NY. And that has me concerned.
Actually... had Miami not left the BE they would have remained strong. Remember the ACC weakened da U because it was more competitive. Sooooooo.... put those woulda shoulda coulda to rest.
Not sure about that. Randy Shannon was an excellent recruiter but horrible head coach. ACC was slightly more competitive, but not by a lot. There were some years that the Big East was better. In 2006, Louisville hammered Miami, lost to Rutgers, and hammered Wake Forest, the ACC champ. 2006 was one of those years where the Big East was better.
Flood’s Florida results largely consisted of 2-3 people- Grant, Hicks and Harris. Other than that, I do agree that Florida needs to be a place we recruit strongly.
Joe P.
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Agree in principle but Miami was declining under Coker and Al I think is right about Shannon as a HC there.
Joe P.
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Additional Kyle Flood Florida Recruit Contributors
Kyle Federico - Starter
Isaiah Wharton - Starter
Brandon Russell - significant reserve minutes
Marcus Applefield - Starter, transfer to Virginia
Jarius Adams - played in 2015; quit football due to injuries
Darian Daily - projected starter till kicked out of school; pleaded no contest to armed robbery; spared prison time and playing for Akron
http://gozips.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=1556
As a Redshirt Junior (2017): Played in all 14 games with 13 starts at cornerback … finished with 42 tackles, seven break-ups, a fumble recovery, and an interception … in the Boca Raton Bowl, had three tackles … in the MAC Championship game against Toledo, had four solo tackles and a fumble recovery … in the win over Kent State, had three solo tackles and a break-up … in the win over Ohio, had four solo stops … at Miami, had four tackles … in the win at Western Michigan, had three tackles, including a TFL, and a break-up … in the win over Ball State, had three tackles, a break-up, and a 40-yard interception return, his first … lettered … named the team’s Defensive MVP following spring drills.
Dailey and Adams are rule-outs; neither saw the field for us. Federico was a Schiano recruit. Applefield was solid. Russel is ok. Out of 5-6 guys 2-3 starters and 2 or so contributors isn’t bad though it’s not what Schiano did with Florida. Also remember that a number of times there’s a difference between being a starter and playing well.
Joe P.
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We are finally building depth. REAL DEPTH. As in B1G caliber depth. Everyone and their mother who have seen the Spring practices will tell you that it is night and day from the Spring Practices with Flood and Ash's first year.
But yeah, Ash's recruiting is no different than Flood's. WTF is wrong with you? Such a freaking troll.
This is a lie. The depth is no different whatsoever. Its just the positions have changed. We have zero B1G depth at WR, DL, safety, and possibly RB. In fact the only position that has a good B1G depth is at CB. Period. QB and LB have a chance if the new kids develop into quality B1G players.
This 2019 recruiting class is important. It needs a ton of players to play early so that the depth is B1G caliber in the 2019 season.
I make no guarantees. Only observations that the program is improving. I have no idea when it will plateau. Is 4/5 wins Ash's upper limit? Or is it 6/7 wins? Or can he take us to a level that will compete with Ohio State etc? I have no idea.
What I do know is that we are trending up. If people choose to believe in something else, then that's fine. But on November 3, when we are 6-2 or 5-3 getting ready for Wisconsin, don't come here posting nonsense about how we are going to win the B1G and that we are the USC of the West or some crap like that when just 9 months earlier Al was saying Ash recruiting is no different than Floods.
If we’re 5-3 going into Wisconsin then we should be calling for his head, as that means 5 wins is where we end up, which is not good in year 3
You’re right, with the gauntlet of Tx St, Buffalo, Maryland, Illinois, Kansas and Northwestern getting 6 wins is a lot to ask for!
That’s not a tough schedule for a really good team. Even a solid team could easily stumble against one or two of those teams. Us? We’re not even solid. We’re just on the better side of hopeless. I expect at least 4 wins in there. But if you think 6/6 there is a cakewalk, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
Dude, WTF are you talking about?
Why do you think Maryland and Northwestern are automatic Ws?
You think Vegas will have us favored in either game?
Maryland has been bringing in classes much higher than us, and they are playing at home.
Northwestern was 10-3 last year and won their last 8 games.
You are on f’in drugs if you think that is a gimme win.
Or...
You are setting unrealistic expectations with the plan to call for Ash’s head if he doesn’t achieve them.
Nice “fan” you are.
Your act is getting old.
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We just beat Maryland this year with a worse team than we’ll have in 2018. Northwestern lost more than any other team in the Big Ten and lost their all time greatest RB, with no good recruiting classes to back it up
You are on f’in drugs if you think we should not win 6 games this year
Or...
You are setting super low expectations with the plan to say Ash overachieved to make yourself feel better about this time, just like everyone did with Flood for years 1-3
Nice “fan you are.
Your act got old with Flood
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