These programs canning coaches after 2 seasons are doing it wrong
- Thread starter uberism1111
- Start date
I agree with your stance here to an extent, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle... I feel like a lot of us who try to speak some since into the ones wanting to fire frost get stuck on trying to explain how the problem is deeper then the coaches, which comes across as us not placing any blame on the coaches... I know that’s not my intent, I think Frost has plenty of room to grow, and I’m not sold on Chinander, and I just hope that if that time comes, that Frost will be able to pull the strings on his buddy... I do know that what I see from the players though, can not be fixed by the coaches... currently our program is a train wreck and I do understand that we most definitely are not the only program to have went through coaching changes that has lead to culture changes... and it seems like most other programs that have been down that path have seemed to rebound quicker... and I don’t know why that is, but I’m willing to bet that again the answer lies somewhere in the middle...
Minnesota in the 10 seasons prior to Fleck- 61-67
Nebraska in the 10 seasons prior to Frost- 85-47
Last 9-win seasons for each prior to hirings of Fleck and Frost:
Minnesota- 1 season prior to Fleck (2016)
Nebraska- 2 seasons prior to Frost (also 2016)
Last 9-win season prior to those:
Minnesota- 2003
Nebraska- 2014
Last 9-win season prior to those:
Minnesota- 1905
Nebraska- 2013
Well....I hate to break it to you, but Riley went 19-19 at Nebraska in 3 seasons. Let's say Nebraska ends up 5-7 this season.....that will put Frost at 9-15 at Nebraska. He'll need to win 10 games next season to get to 19 wins, a.k.a the same as that ****** coach. If he fails, and has a worse record, and Riley is ******, then what are you going to say about Frost?
Can't blame it on Riley's players, either, as that will be 3 seasons of Frost's players.
Proceed with the verbal gymnastics.
I hate to tell you, but during the the season isn't when athletes make gains in the weight room.
And, again...what is your source on that?
Yes, the further back you go the better. But it has no bearing and makes no sense to go back that far. The program Fleck took over was stable and winning, the one Frost took over wasn’t. Didn’t matter what matter how much Bob, To or Bo won, these players weren’t part of it.
I didn't have to go very far back.
1) Any freshman that were redshirts in Peini's last year would have been seniors in Frost's first season.
2) Frost had players that had been to 2 bowls on his first team....a few of which would still be around now.
Not many coaches take over a program that had averaged more than 6 wins per season the prior three years and parlay that into back to back losing seasons
Kirk Feretnz was one but he saved his job in years 4,5 and 6 with top 10 teams each of those years
Matt Campbell took over Iowa State that had won a total of 8 games the 3 years prior and after his transition year won 8 games each season in his 2nd and 3rd years - and beat 2 top 5 teams
no one is asking for titles - but to potentially not qualify for a bowl in year 2 - would grade out as an F
You can spin away. The fact remains Fleck took over a program that had won 8 games in three of the four previous seasons. A program with a great deal of stability and toughness from Kill and Clays and still struggled mightily for 2+ seasons.
Well there was still some stank left from Pelini that Riley had to deal with. I might be wrong but some of that infected the some of the guys that Riley brought in IMO. This program has been a dysfunctional mess for a long time but Frost will fix it over time. He's got the right mindset and won't be deterred.
They are not doing a good job with this program, to date. But this was not a winning program, we had losing season in 2 of the 3 previous years and have gone through two very tough coaching changes. We could be having more success, no doubt about it. But trying to paint this as a great situation, or even similar to the situation Riley took over is nonsense.
It has been a mess, that's why acing like this is a great situation and that we should be thriving because "we are Nebraska", is ridiculous.
Just the emergence of MInnesota points to another factor in Nebraska's stuggles. IMO, most of our conference foes are improved teams over previous years. Minnesota is pretty damned good. Purdue while it has it's struggles has playmakers it hasn't in the past. Indiana is a solid team again. Hell look at what Illinois has done since we played them.
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People need to stop talking about Bo and the years prior to that. In three weeks not one player will be around anymore (assuming no bowl game) that was here during the Bo/Riley transition. In 2 more years this is 100% Frost's roster and program as all of the Riley stuff will be out the window.
After the last game this season that Bo stuff becomes irrelevant.
After the last game this season that Bo stuff becomes irrelevant.
and this staff will likely have losing seasons in 3 of the 4 previous years
at some point you start to own your record
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Those are all great arguments, but there are some flaws in your reasoning... last I checked 3 years is not enough time to cycle out all previous regimes players... now yes year three should hopefully see a majority of the team playing meaningful snaps being from Frosts recruiting classes... Also please keep in mind that yes currently Frost has a worse record the what mike had, however, Frost took over a program that was in worse shape than MR took over... Now neither were done any favors by the staff that preceded them.. MR had to undo the mind f••k that Bo left, but bo left behind some kids that would fight, Scott has to undo a Charman soft mentality, where no one know how to fight and they all give up, its like they play their games like it’s “who’s line is it anyways” where everything is made up and the points don’t matter... personally I’d rather take over a program that is tough as nails but has been mind f••ked...
And last but not least I’m sure as hell glad you’re not the AD and in charge of making any of these decisions... you are the type that would run crap even further into the ground due to your in ability to see how we got here, and the bigger picture of how we get out of here
Frost's staff will own their record after next season. At least they'll have some juniors playing next year who were their recruits. Yeah lots of that first class were reaches but hopefully the ones who have panned out will be leading.. This most recent class IMO is going to be the bell cow for future success. They had a year to develop relationships and sell NU and it has already shown up in the success some of the freshmen are having. We've got future team captains/difference makers in Wandale and Nelson IMO. In a normal situation that isn't the dumpster fire that Riley left, I would expect a quicker turn around......I think. I expect winning seasons (6 wins minimum) each of the next 2 years and am hopeful that this most recent freshman class gets us back to the 9-10 win level by their senior year.
Comparing nebraska to minnesota just based on prior records is lazy. In 3 years under Riley, we changed offensive systems twice, changed the defensive system, and had a revolving door of assistant coaches. He led a program that was under constant upheaval and it did a lot of damage to the roster. Minnesota had a bad deal 3 years back with their HC, but it still fielded a program who had a reasonable amount of consistency.
Riley inherited a team that never won less 9 games the previous 7 years and had 3 division titles, Frost inherited a team that was just slightly better than the Kansas Jayhawks.
Nebraska from 2015-2017 was 19-19, with 2 bowls.
Kansas during that stretch was 3-33, and not good enough for the toilet bowl.
Pretty big difference between the two if you ask me.
Because, to me, it takes far more than 5 losing seasons in the last 59, even if 2 were in the previous 3 before Frost was hired, to say that Nebraska is/was unstable.
Let's also be realistic that Riley's last season would not have been 4-8 if the ax had not dropped on Eikhorst and it was obvious the coaching staff was all going to be dismissed at the end of the season also. Chances are very good that season would have been at least 7-7. However we are where we are now and it is not where we should be over halfway thru Frost's second season. There are some problems and we can only hope Frost can fix them. But please stop saying this is all on the Riley players. One of our best players right now is a Riley player and this is indisputable!
Our program was the definition of unstable. Three head coaches in 5 seasons, massive attrition and scheme changes. Some players have had 4 different position coaches in their time here. It's great that we were a machine under TO, that doesn't make the program stable today.
And I could point to Minnesota having 4 coaches in 10 seasons before Fleck....
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Let me start by saying, I’m not trying to make a case for firing Frost. But if we use your logic, Frost has been a head coach for 3 3/4 seasons. Of those, he has had a ****** record for 2 3/4 seasons.
I’m just saying!
I think jedimasterjed has a skewed vision of what "******" is.
He seems to think that 19-19 and 3-33 records aren't much different from one another.
1 bowl was not deserved with a 5 and 7 reco
Its definitely not the record I expected but I believe the program was in that bad of shape. Frost does have a undefeated season under his belt
I am hoping Frost turns it around. I believed he would when he was hired and I still have that hope. However to this point there have been some big problems and he is responsible for some of them. Fans need to stop making excuses for him. I did it last season when I truly felt at that time that losing the opening game changed the season. I no longer feel that way as the same problems still exist this year. There is not harmony on the team and if what appears to be is true that is pretty much all on the head coach!
Riley sucked and lost the team and that 4-8 record is completely on him. These last 2 seasons where we may go 4-8 are completely on Frost. Why is everyone trying to deflect blame from the coaches? The responsibility for how the team performs is completely on the coaches.
So if we finish 5-7 and get a bowl invite, would you consider that "not deserved" as well, or would you and the other Frost apologists move the goalposts yet again?
that is such a simple minded way of looking at the issues... and I will star by saying that yes Frost has some blame in this... to me the blame is on some of his questionable play calls, not following his own mantra of no fear... but saying the responsibility for how the team performs is solely on the coach is purely idiotic, and very misguided... I would like to know how many of you have been responsible for guiding multiple young alpha males towards achieving a common goal of playing for the team and not for self... The coaches can only do so much, but whatever they can do will always stop right there at the sidelines, they can not play the game for the kids.... i have read so much BS on this board that it is sickening.... until you have been in a situation where you are responsible for individuals and trying to get them to achieve a common goal for the greater good of the team, don’t sit here and pretend like it is all on the leadership... again some of it is on them, but at some point the individuals actually playing the game, out on the field need to take responsibility as well...
There's not many jobs out there that have as much control over a program as a college head football coach. A head coach is responsible for every part of how the program is run. They are also responsible for the results that are achieved. Blaming everything on the players doesn't make any sense either because coaches are the ones that recruit the players and decide if they should remain on the team. Coaching just as in any leadership position has a huge effect on performance.
It's even more simple minded to pin everything on Riley. Let's be honest, Frost made questionable assistant hires and has overall done a terrible job.
He made a potentially fatal mistake in alienating players and chasing off much of the higher-end talent on the roster. Hell, he's even had a lot of his own high rated players transfer out.
I work a job that requires the skill set of being a leader... I am an NCO in the army, I manage around 79 individuals so I understand the struggle Frost goes through, so I speak of knowledge on saying it’s not as simple as most of you make this out to be...
This is absolutely spot on, I have been on record as saying I’m not sold on chinander, and it’s never a good idea to isolate anyone when you’re in a position of leadership... however sometimes you need to cut ties even with some of the best if they are under minding your end state... I have been in situations like this, they are not easy to fix... hell im currently taking over a department where exactaly that was goin on, and I’ve had to make the difficult choices of what to do with individuals, I’ve had to recommend separation for some of the better ones because yes they may excel at the physical aspects, but they undermine the mental aspects which pays a bigger toll on the end state... it happens and it’s difficult... I will not argue that Frost has made mistakes and I have said as much... but let’s see if he is able to make the difficult choices it will take to fix it... I understand his reasoning, what he had worked for him, he trusted the people he brought with him, now he has to re evaluate what it was that made them successful, was it the leadership he had in place or was it the joes that succeeded regardless of the leadership? Again I don’t know the answers, and obviously working the role I work in the army is different from the role Scott has as the head coach... but there are some aspects that line up, and it really is difficult to manage that amount of personnel with out any issues, it boils down to can he minimize the issues and fix the big ones
1) Whether or not Nebraska deserved the bowl with a 5-7 record was so far from being the main point. You made the claim that Nebraska under Riley wasn't much better than Kansas. I showed you to be in error, and now you want to argue being deserving of a bowl. Too funny.
2) Mike MacIntyre, the former CU coach, has 7 losing seasons, with a 10-2 and 10-4 thrown in. Good coach, ****** coach, or somewhere in the middle? Is one season of 12-0, surrounded by losing seasons, a good coach? If so, how is 12-0 really so much better than 10-2 or 10-4?
We've got a lot in common then.
Leadership is tricky, I know in the Army new COs and new 1SGs on the company level go through similar transitions. You've got to be able to massage the potential out of the soldiers, regardless of whether or not they don't like the way you run things compared to the old leadership. Same thing (on a bigger scale) at the BN/BDE levels.