OT - so I got my solar proposal

[Seinfeld]

A few highlights

-$60k system
-Estimated $16k tax credit
-32 panels that will replace 70% of current electrical bill
-12 year workmanship warranty, 25 year system warranty. Will remove panels free of charge if roof needs to be replaced within 5 yrs
-No money down, no payments for 1 year, various financing options after that
-Area reports indicating that homes in my neck of the woods are appraising at +4% with solar

Only thing I’m hung up on now is that if we were to move in 5-7 years, this whole plan only makes sense IF a buyer is willing to take over remaining payments. If not, there’s just no way to make the numbers work

Any of y’all taken the solar plunge?

 

[T-TownDawgg]

If you are taking up the government on a PACE program loan, tread carefully. The fine print is scary, they dictate who your contractor is, and your property tax exposure may increase a ridiculous amount depending on location.

ETA I’m seeing some banks and home insurance companies are increasingly skiddish about touching homes with rooftop solar. I know Alabama Power is adding penalties and surcharges for homes with solar.

 

[Ghostman]

A few highlights

-$60k system
-Estimated $16k tax credit
-32 panels that will replace 70% of current electrical bill
-12 year workmanship warranty, 25 year system warranty. Will remove panels free of charge if roof needs to be replaced within 5 yrs
-No money down, no payments for 1 year, various financing options after that
-Area reports indicating that homes in my neck of the woods are appraising at +4% with solar

Only thing I’m hung up on now is that if we were to move in 5-7 years, this whole plan only makes sense IF a buyer is willing to take over remaining payments. If not, there’s just no way to make the numbers work

Any of y’all taken the solar plunge?

How long do you estimate that it would take you to break even after you reduce your bill by 70% and get your tax credit?

 

[The Peeper]

I'm just easing into it but if small projects go well I'm ready to dive in. Not planning on getting out of the house any time soon so no reason not to if system works as planned. I'm just going to start by powering outdoor lighting and work shop and will go from there. Doing that myself so not going to use any financing or looking for tax breaks, not enough to fool with. Also planning on adapting an old van I've got into a camping/tailgating vehicle and using solar for it as well.

 

[FQDawg]

A few highlights

-32 panels that will replace 70% of current electrical bill

If you're getting this figure from the company, I'd be very skeptical. I know a few people in Mississippi with solar panels and they aren't generating near that much. At least not on a consistent basis. One friend said after they had the panels installed that his wife ran the AC so much more ("because the power is free now") they weren't really seeing much of a benefit.

Though, as with everything, YMMV.

 

[thatsbaseball]

Why not just refinance an pay off the system . With your 16K credit and +4% value boost you should be too bad off if you decide to sell in several years.

 

[GloryDawg]

If you're getting this figure from the company, I'd be very skeptical. I know a few people in Mississippi with solar panels and they aren't generating near that much. At least not on a consistent basis. One friend said after they had the panels installed that his wife ran the AC so much more ("because the power is free now") they weren't really seeing much of a benefit.

Though, as with everything, YMMV.

I know it's not solar but I bought a new HAVAC system four years ago. The salesman said it would pay for itself. My electric bill use to be 350.00 a month. It never gets over 180.00 a month now. It has pretty much paid for itself. He did not try to sell me on the tax credit. He said that it was a pain in the butt. I went with a different unit.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

I ran through the numbers 1000 times at my old house. I was paying $.09/kw and would have to be paying closer to $.40/kw to make it worthwhile as an "investment." Effectively, you are borrowing $44k to pay 70% of your electricity for the next 25 years (assuming that's the useable life of the solar system.)

That is a liability on the balance sheet. As you mentioned it, no telling exactly what the value you would get if you have to sell. Percentage of home value is a bad way to look ($100k home or $400k home will have different percentage, so let's say 4% of $250-300k is the average value.) Maybe $10-12k in Arkansas? Higher in other states, but not so much in the south.

So after the tax credit and resale value, let's call it $30K. If you're normal bill is $200 and you cut it to $40. That's $160 per month savings. If the entire loan was interest free, which it won't be, you are looking at a 16 year payback. From strictly a financial perspective, it's not a good investment.

With all that said, if it makes you happy and you like the idea of not completely relying on the grid, go for it. I just bought a freaking RV.... Terrible investment. Makes me happy though.

To make it a good investment. Pay full retail for the solar system, take the $16k tax credit if you can get it all this year, and go buy you some index funds. I will let you run those numbers, but that might be a chicken dinner.

 

[johnson86-1]

A few highlights

-$60k system
-Estimated $16k tax credit
-32 panels that will replace 70% of current electrical bill
-12 year workmanship warranty, 25 year system warranty. Will remove panels free of charge if roof needs to be replaced within 5 yrs
-No money down, no payments for 1 year, various financing options after that
-Area reports indicating that homes in my neck of the woods are appraising at +4% with solar

Only thing I’m hung up on now is that if we were to move in 5-7 years, this whole plan only makes sense IF a buyer is willing to take over remaining payments. If not, there’s just no way to make the numbers work

Any of y’all taken the solar plunge?

I would want more information on what they mean by "replace 70% of current electrical bill". Confirm that it's actually going to reduce your electric bill by 70% and they are not saying that you can generate 70% of the power you use. If it's actually giving you the percent reduction in your utility bill, the math is pretty easy. If they are talking about the percent of your energy needs the panels will produce, you are going to have to do a little more digging.

If you are like most people, you will not be using a ton of electricity at the times the panels are most productive. The summer peak in demand will typically be two or three hours after the peak production of the solar panels. In the winter, peak production of the solar panels will probably match up with your lowest energy needs. So if you are sized to generate 70% of your energy needs, a good bit of that will likely be produced at times you can't use it and it will be pushed back to the grid and you will get some sort of payment from your utility, and how they calculate that payment is probably going to determine whether it makes sense.

Some utilities will pay solar owners a subsidy for power sent back to the grid and essentially give them retail prices, which includes the cost of maintaining the grid that the homeowner is obviously not paying for and also ignores the fact that the power is non-dispatchable. If your utility does that, it's much more likely to make sense economically. If your utility only pays you for the value of the energy, it's very likely not going to make sense financially.

ETA: I also know some people are surprised to find out that the solar panels only provide power when they are receiving power from the grid, and if their power goes out, they can't use the solar panels unless they have a back-up power source. I don't think people are getting suckered by that anymore, but just FYI in case.

 

[Dawgbite]

I had a guy tell me once that a RV was an investment in your happiness and sanity. Financially they are an endless pit you throw money in.

 

[Seinfeld]

It was funny reading through this because it details my thought process to a T.

$16k tax credit
$16k gain on home resell

Leaves $24k unaccounted for as quoted total cost is $56k(not the round $60k figure I previously mentioned)

I’m not too worried about the financing interest because I feel like it could easily be washed out by increasing energy costs during the same time period. However, as you said, an estimated $180/mo in utilities saving equates to a 12 year payback. A little better than the 16 year figure, but still not overly enticing. The enticing part would be the following 40 years(hopefully) with a $50/mo energy bill, but there are variables there to include how long we keep the house and life of the system to name a few.

I’ve run the numbers a hundred times, and it’s a heck of a lot more intriguing than it used to be, but I still just can’t quite justify it

 

[WrapItDog]

You also need to figure in the cost of increasing your Homeowners Insurance coverage by 60K per year

 

[Shmuley]

... and the increase in property taxes associated with the value add.

 

[FreeDawg]

Took the solar plunge as well. Impressed thus far

 

[johnson86-1]

It was funny reading through this because it details my thought process to a T.

$16k tax credit
$16k gain on home resell

Leaves $24k unaccounted for as quoted total cost is $56k(not the round $60k figure I previously mentioned)

I’m not too worried about the financing interest because I feel like it could easily be washed out by increasing energy costs during the same time period. However, as you said, an estimated $180/mo in utilities saving equates to a 12 year payback. A little better than the 16 year figure, but still not overly enticing. The enticing part would be the following 40 years(hopefully) with a $50/mo energy bill, but there are variables there to include how long we keep the house and life of the system to name a few.

I’ve run the numbers a hundred times, and it’s a heck of a lot more intriguing than it used to be, but I still just can’t quite justify it

I think you are really going to want to just consider the first 25 years. The solar panels should keep producing past 25 years, even if at a reduced output, but it seems like there's a pretty good chance you are going to have to do major roof work in the next 25 years, in which case the extra labor to remove and reinstall the panels might wipe out savings for a while past that. Or if it's happening toward the end of the solar panels life, it's reasonably likely that it's going to make more sense to buy new panels at that point rather than spend the labor costs to reinstall old panels with reduced output.

 

[Allday.sixpack]

I just spent 10k more on open cell spray foam insulation and it reduced my energy usage by almost 40%.
Post construction, your better investment would be more insulation in my opinion

 

[Shmuley]

Outstanding advice.

 

[FQDawg]

I just spent 10k more on open cell spray foam insulation and it reduced my energy usage by almost 40%.
Post construction, your better investment would be more insulation in my opinion

How big of a house do you have, if I can ask?

 

[Car Ramrod.sixpack]

I just spent 10k more on open cell spray foam insulation and it reduced my energy usage by almost 40%.
Post construction, your better investment would be more insulation in my opinion

This is a good point. I recently had an HVAC guy over to do a once over on my system and he noticed that we had foil back insulation panels under our roof deck. We then went into a long conversation about how great an investment that was on utility costs.

 

[fishwater99]

Can you sell your excess energy back to the grid? That can make a big difference if you have any excess.

 

[Seinfeld]

Interestingly, the company I’m dealing with includes that service as part of the deal. Most of our current spray insulation is at 8-10”, and they’ll bring it up to 20” prior to installation of the solar equipment

 

[HotMop]

Don't do it unless you live in a desert. I'm in Florida and a bunch of neighbors fell for this ****. They don't produce what your promised. Also,I live next to a closing agent, she's not taking on any homes that have leased panels, can't get them approved for whatever reason.

 

[johnson86-1]

I had a guy tell me once that a RV was an investment in your happiness and sanity. Financially they are an endless pit you throw money in.

They're just like boats. If you use them, they're great. Most people buy them and then they sit way too much, and it works out to paying an insane hourly rate for the amount they actually use them.

 

[Seinfeld]

Yes, the current proposal includes installation of a 2-way meter which allows for sell back, and my power company pays dollar for dollar on that compared to their own costs. From what I understand, this is another big benefit to solar power in Arkansas because some areas may only pay 70 cents on the dollar or something similar.

So long story short, this company guarantees a certain amount of kWh generated per the quoted system, and if it doesn’t do that, they are responsible for system adjustments and upgrades if required. As the system generates power, it gets sold to my power company which then turns into credits for myself, and over a 12-month period, it’s estimated to offset 70% of my bill.

 

[johnson86-1]

I just spent 10k more on open cell spray foam insulation and it reduced my energy usage by almost 40%.
Post construction, your better investment would be more insulation in my opinion

I don't think it matters post or pre construction. The best bang for your buck is going to be maxing out the energy efficiency options first, which of course makes it harder for solar to pencil out.

If you're doing the spray foam insulation during construction, you'll also benefit from having a smaller sized HVAC.

Which is also something you may need to be on the look out for since you did your insulation after the fact. In the south, you can sometimes run into humidity problems when adding insulation after the fact, because if your HVAC was sized for a less efficient house, it will end up not running enough to pull the humidity out of the house and you can get moisture issues.

Ran into that issue with a high rise condo. Our salt would actually solidify because it got so humid. Was a middle unit that was surrounded by concrete and climate controlled areas on every side of the condo except for the small wall of windows facing the beach. In early summer, even though it was hot, the HVAC would run very little. Took me a little while to figure out why it was so uncomfortable.

 

[garddog]

I looked into this with a business several years ago. The numbers didn't work at that time at all. Net loss of around $250 a month back then during the repayment.

My personal opinion is that until such time as the panels can effectively become your roof, it is a no go. One of our great engineers should come up with a way to replace the whole roof with a panel system. Instead of a roof with panels on top.

Houses would need no trees close by.

 

[Seinfeld]

That’s fair. Even if I do limit things to 25 years, though, that would give me roughly 13 years of “free” energy. If I then take degradation of equipment into account, you could still be looking at anywhere from $20-25k in energy savings after the payback period.

At the end of the day, I think solar makes incredible sense if you’re very confident that A) you’re in your forever home or B) you can convince a future home buyer to buy out your remaining contract. Any other scenario and it’s tough to justify

 

[garddog]

I don't think it matters post or pre construction. The best bang for your buck is going to be maxing out the energy efficiency options first, which of course makes it harder for solar to pencil out.

If you're doing the spray foam insulation during construction, you'll also benefit from having a smaller sized HVAC.

Which is also something you may need to be on the look out for since you did your insulation after the fact. In the south, you can sometimes run into humidity problems when adding insulation after the fact, because if your HVAC was sized for a less efficient house, it will end up not running enough to pull the humidity out of the house and you can get moisture issues.

Ran into that issue with a high rise condo. Our salt would actually solidify because it got so humid. Was a middle unit that was surrounded by concrete and climate controlled areas on every side of the condo except for the small wall of windows facing the beach. In early summer, even though it was hot, the HVAC would run very little. Took me a little while to figure out why it was so uncomfortable.

Johnson, I have seen the humidity issue before. Did you install dehumidifiers or set up some controls to make the fan run more for air movement?

I think if I was building a new home I would fix a dehumidifier into the return air system. Dropping the humidity means you can be more comfortable even at somewhat higher temps.

 

[GhostOfJackie]

I've never run the numbers, but I've been told by friends in real estate, friends in construction, and friends in banking/mortgage to stay as far away from it as you can. That's all I need to know for the moment. I would concentrate on ways to make your home more energy efficient as it stands, and there are many DIY type of things you can take on yourself.

I look at it this way:
- the technology is just not there yet
- saving energy is great and everybody should try and do it, but we're not at a point where the tech is advanced enough to justify the financial burden you take on
- government (as they do) is immune to the facts on the ground and normal everyday lives, so the solar "programs" they come up with seem pushed, are unfeasible, and the returns are tied up in bureaucracy
- since government has no clue what they are doing, they push unreasonable programs like this to score "feel good" political points. Trust me, none of this was thought out to the extent it needs to be. It looks great that they are trying to save the earth, but DON'T TOUCH IT YET!

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Skiddish like this?

View attachment 21452

 

[johnson86-1]

Johnson, I have seen the humidity issue before. Did you install dehumidifiers or set up some controls to make the fan run more for air movement?

I think if I was building a new home I would fix a dehumidifier into the return air system. Dropping the humidity means you can be more comfortable even at somewhat higher temps.

Our HVAC is supposedly sized that it will run enough to address the humidity. Doesn't entirely make sense to me; you'd think the tonnage moved would be what matters, not whether you run a 1 ton longer or a 2 ton shorter. But it appears to be fine. Our HVAC guy gave us ("gave"; I guess included) some bluetooth hygrometers for the attic spaces. Hasn't been an issue, but I guess we'd just put some plug in dehumidifiers up there if it were.

If we had done the whole house spray foam instead of just the attic envelop, a dehumidifier would have been added to the HVAC that would run on its own and I'm pretty sure they were going to add mechanical ventilation to pull in makeup air occasionally. Not positive about all that; it's been a while.

 

[johnson86-1]

Yes, the current proposal includes installation of a 2-way meter which allows for sell back, and my power company pays dollar for dollar on that compared to their own costs. From what I understand, this is another big benefit to solar power in Arkansas because some areas may only pay 70 cents on the dollar or something similar.

The net metering is a big subsidy. Shocking to me that even with taxpayers covering 30% of the costs of installation and then other ratepayers paying what could be a $0.05 or $0.06 per kwh subsidy for electricity sold back to the grid that it still doesn't pencil out.

That said, it probably won't be an issue if solar isn't that good of a deal in Arkansas even with the subsidies, but where solar has had relatively fast growth, the tendency is to take moves to reduce or offset the net metering subsidy, such as through monthly demand or interconnection charges for solar tied to the grid or just monthly solar charges period (which are really just infrastructure charges). Don't think anywhere has really been able to remove or completely offset the subsidy once its in place, but with how tight the economics, they've probably flipped the economics from good to bad for some owners.

So long story short, this company guarantees a certain amount of kWh generated per the quoted system, and if it doesn’t do that, they are responsible for system adjustments and upgrades if required. As the system generates power, it gets sold to my power company which then turns into credits for myself, and over a 12-month period, it’s estimated to offset 70% of my bill.

 

[dog12]

That’s fair. Even if I do limit things to 25 years, though, that would give me roughly 13 years of “free” energy. If I then take degradation of equipment into account, you could still be looking at anywhere from $20-25k in energy savings after the payback period.

At the end of the day, I think solar makes incredible sense if you’re very confident that A) you’re in your forever home or B) you can convince a future home buyer to buy out your remaining contract. Any other scenario and it’s tough to justify

A good friend of mine recently looked into getting solar panels for his house in Northern Virginia. Your conclusions sound very much like his.

My friend ran all the numbers and figured that it would take him 15 years to break even. Thus, he concluded, it wasn't worth it. (He's not sure how long they will be living in their current house.)

My friend told me that the only scenario where getting solar panels are clearly the correct financial choice is when you are building a house WAAYYY out in the country and there are no nearby electrical grid lines to tie into. Under that scenario, you'd have to pay the electric company to run a line from the nearest electrical line to your house. Of course, that would get really expensive really quickly . . . and you'd still be paying the electric company for your power every month.

Under that scenario, you might as well put in the solar panels and be "off-grid," because the cost of your solar panel system would be similar to what you'd pay the electric company to run a line to your house.

 

[goodknight]

Easy math

What are you saving and does it cover the payment? Company quoting have a good history etc. Its all about the $’s to me.

 

[Eleven Bravo]

I had a guy tell me once that a RV was an investment in your happiness and sanity. Financially they are an endless pit you throw money in.

I’ve owned 2 RV’s over the years. We enjoyed traveling in them for years. Great fun to take to football games, etc. As we have gotten older my wife and I find that we prefer sleeping in a hotel bed and I’m glad that I no longer have to drag out that hose and then put it back up (“the ******* was full” lol every day on the road. The RV’s served their purpose for us, but I don’t miss them. Financially, I would tell anyone that they are definitely a money pit and like any other thing you buy with tires and a transmission included-they will begin to depreciate the instant you drive them off the lot.

 

[jdwhite]

A few highlights

-$60k system
-Estimated $16k tax credit
-32 panels that will replace 70% of current electrical bill
-12 year workmanship warranty, 25 year system warranty. Will remove panels free of charge if roof needs to be replaced within 5 yrs
-No money down, no payments for 1 year, various financing options after that
-Area reports indicating that homes in my neck of the woods are appraising at +4% with solar

Only thing I’m hung up on now is that if we were to move in 5-7 years, this whole plan only makes sense IF a buyer is willing to take over remaining payments. If not, there’s just no way to make the numbers work

Any of y’all taken the solar plunge?[/QUOTE


Started out with 4 different installers wanting to slap 22-24 panels on my roof. Found one who's going to install 17 commercial level panels for less cost than the 22-24 folks.

If you haven't looked at https://www.energysage.com/ check it out.

World of good info and they don't spam you with info. Put in what you want and they put it out for quotes which are then posted on the site for you to compare. You can then chose to go continue discussions with any of the vendors. Site also provides a free 3rd party consultant who can answer questions for you. You don't have to use them.

Even if you don't sign up there's a lot of info on it and real apples to apples comparisons between inverters and panels.

I'm waiting on my permit to be approved so we can start my installation of a 7.57 KW system ($19,900) which will cover 90% of my power requirement. (I live in South Texas)

Make sure to look up the panels and inverter(s) the installer is quoting you and compare them to the others.

Both my panels and inverter have a 25 year warranty.

https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/?product_line_status=current

For comparison these are the ratings of my panels:

REC Alpha REC445AA72 - REC ProTrust Warranty

https://www.energysage.com/solar-panels/rec/2360/REC445AA72-protrust/

Power in Year 1 98%
Annual Degradation 0.25%
Power in Year 25 92%

Inverters:

https://www.energysage.com/solar-inverters/?product_line_status=current

Mine: SolarEdge Technologies HD Wave SE7600H-US [240V] | Extended Warranty

You want to get the most efficent "Power in year 25" and inverter efficiency with the least number of panels.

A couple of other sites which allow you to see your sun field of your house.

https://www.suncalc.org/

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com

If you have any questions about the process PM me.

 

[jdwhite]

My god 20 inches would be an R-Value of 70. I'd say that's way overkill. (Open cell spray foam typically has an R Value of 3.5ish per inch.)

 

[jdwhite]

I don't think it matters post or pre construction. The best bang for your buck is going to be maxing out the energy efficiency options first, which of course makes it harder for solar to pencil out.

If you're doing the spray foam insulation during construction, you'll also benefit from having a smaller sized HVAC.

Which is also something you may need to be on the look out for since you did your insulation after the fact. In the south, you can sometimes run into humidity problems when adding insulation after the fact, because if your HVAC was sized for a less efficient house, it will end up not running enough to pull the humidity out of the house and you can get moisture issues.

Ran into that issue with a high rise condo. Our salt would actually solidify because it got so humid. Was a middle unit that was surrounded by concrete and climate controlled areas on every side of the condo except for the small wall of windows facing the beach. In early summer, even though it was hot, the HVAC would run very little. Took me a little while to figure out why it was so uncomfortable.

I installed a whole house dehumidifier connected into my HAVC system and it makes a huge difference.

AC runs less because it's not "drying" the air and I can keep the temp in the house a degree or two warmer without the humidity in the air.

 

[RocketDawg]

Why did you choose open cell as opposed to closed cell?

 

[squintdawg]

I went through the quote process out of curiosity. Payback was way too long. Unless you live in AS or Cali - you likely have relatively cheap power. We do in SC. Also - I bet a large chunk of that “70% Savings” had nothing to do with Solar Power, but the assumption of what smart devices can save that they are also factoring in. Do yourself a favor - go to Lowe’s and get you some smart thermostats and switches, and you will come out way ahead of putting in Solar panels. And no home buyer is going to pay off your loan for you!