Gunnar Hoglund headed for TJ surgery...

[Xenomorph]

Really sux for that guy.

 

[Bulldog from Birth]

Bianco should’ve pitched him more while he was healthy. *****

 

[57stratdawg]

That sucks. I don’t think it’ll hurt his stock that much. He’s a talented dude, and TJ isn’t what it once was.

The innings increase year over year might lead to a few more guys going under though. It’s something MLB teams are having to navigate.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

That sucks. I don’t think it’ll hurt his stock that much. He’s a talented dude, and TJ isn’t what it once was.

It's not insignificant, plenty of stats on that. And you will always have that stigma.

 

[rynodawg]

MLB draft analysts on Twitter seem to think he’ll fall to the 15-25 range in first round, which is still pretty good. He had turned down $1.9M out of high school after getting drafted late first round.

 

[Joe Schmedlap]

Didn’t Ethan Small have an arm surgery? He did quite well for himself

 

[Russ Wheeler]

Didn’t Ethan Small have an arm surgery? He did quite well for himself

Plenty do, but it's still a set-back, and shows that there are possibly some underlying mechanics somewhere that are leading to injury at worst, and just simple overuse at best, before ligaments are fully matured.

 

[Drebin]

It's not insignificant, plenty of stats on that. And you will always have that stigma.

What stigma is that?

 

[Russ Wheeler]

What stigma is that?

See my response to Joe Schmedlap's post. Not to mention the physiology of the injury.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

MLB draft analysts on Twitter seem to think he’ll fall to the 15-25 range in first round, which is still pretty good. He had turned down $1.9M out of high school after getting drafted late first round.

They must think a lot of him, because Kevin Abel was not drafted last year (his first year eligible), and he was over a year removed from the surgery. But then again Ginn is a case study that says they will. Guess it's all about what they've seen most recently.

 

[Drebin]

See my response to Joe Schmedlap's post. Not to mention the physiology of the injury.

Now make a list of pitchers at the MLB level that have had it, and those who haven't had it. Then take note that the names on the list of those who have include a who's who of elite MLB pitchers.

There's no stigma with Tommy John surgery anymore. It's virtually accepted at this point that if you're going to play pro ball as a pitcher, you're going to have it at some point. There's even stories of guys getting the surgery proactively now.

The setback is that pitchers lose a year to rehab. But almost everyone who has it bounces back to their previous performance level (at least).

JT Ginn had Tommy John surgery. The "stigma" was so severe that the Mets took him in the second round despite knowing he would be out for a year.

 

[ronpolk]

It's not insignificant, plenty of stats on that. And you will always have that stigma.

I wouldn’t be shocked if 30 to 40% of big league pitchers have TJ at some point. There is no stigma. It’s a long recovery process and even when you’re healthy most teams take it very slowly. But I don’t see where there is a stigma.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

They must think a lot of him, because Kevin Abel was not drafted last year (his first year eligible), and he was over a year removed from the surgery. But then again Ginn is a case study that says they will. Guess it's all about what they've seen most recently.

He was being projected in the 5-10 range right before the injury. So I’m sure some team would love for him to fall to them in the 15-20 range. I don’t think most people have realized just how great a year he was having because we weren’t giving him any run support on Friday’s (or game 1’s). We were averaging something ridiculous like 3.7 runs in game 1’s in SEC play and between 8 and 9 in games 2 and 3, prior to A&M series. Hoglund was throwing it so well.

It sucks. We weren’t going to Omaha anyways, because Bianco would’ve found a way to screw it up, but now he’s got some fairly legit built in excuses with Elko and now Hoglund.

 

[Apoplectic_Objurgator]

Skip Bertman strikes again

 

[NOATLDAWG]

It just cannot be done on accident anymore... Especially for a sports fan/write in Atlanta...

https://www.espn.com/college-sports...gunnar-hoglund-tommy-john-surgery-sources-say


I'm sure the bulldogs will hate losing their ace, Hoglund....
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[Russ Wheeler]

He was being projected in the 5-10 range right before the injury. So I’m sure some team would love for him to fall to them in the 15-20 range. I don’t think most people have realized just how great a year he was having because we weren’t giving him any run support on Friday’s (or game 1’s). We were averaging something ridiculous like 3.7 runs in game 1’s in SEC play and between 8 and 9 in games 2 and 3, prior to A&M series. Hoglund was throwing it so well.

It sucks. We weren’t going to Omaha anyways, because Bianco would’ve found a way to screw it up, but now he’s got some fairly legit built in excuses with Elko and now Hoglund.

Not to pour salt on the wound, but Ole Miss may have been screwed worst of all last year. That team was loaded.

 

[The Peeper]

Deleted

.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

There's no stigma with Tommy John surgery anymore. It's virtually accepted at this point that if you're going to play pro ball as a pitcher, you're going to have it at some point. There's even stories of guys getting the surgery proactively now.

No, no, no, no....Dear God no. stop stop stop. This is not 2006, that stupidity of proactively getting the surgery was thrown out 10 years ago.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

I wouldn’t be shocked if 30 to 40% of big league pitchers have TJ at some point. There is no stigma. It’s a long recovery process and even when you’re healthy most teams take it very slowly. But I don’t see where there is a stigma.

It's there, and even still this deal is SO DAMN PREVENTABLE. There's just too many daddy ballers and velo bros out there now, it's like trying to recycle, shooting a BB gun at a freight train.

And the number is 26%, at least in 2017. From a quick Google search.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

pitch counts

Date	Opponent	IP	NP
2/21/2021	vs Texas Tech	5.1	95
2/27/2021	UCF	7.0	--
3/6/2021	Belmont	5.1	96
3/12/2021	ULM	6.0	--
3/19/2021	Auburn	8.0	117
3/26/2021	at Alabama	6.0	95
4/1/2021	at Florida	6.0	95
4/10/2021	Arkansas	5.1	109
4/16/2021	at Mississippi State	7.0	109
4/30/2021	South Carolina	6.0	73
5/7/2021	at Texas A&M	0.2	18

<tbody>
</tbody>

Averaged 105 pitches in five SEC games before missing a week due to injury. I had to go to opponents' websites for some of those pitch counts and still couldn't find two of them. Seems like it should be required stat keeping.

 

[Drebin]

No, no, no, no....Dear God no. stop stop stop. This is not 2006, that stupidity of proactively getting the surgery was thrown out 10 years ago.

So you're saying it doesn't happen? Because that's not true. You are making a flat-earth argument here.

 

[Drebin]

It's there, and even still this deal is SO DAMN PREVENTABLE. There's just too many daddy ballers and velo bros out there now, it's like trying to recycle, shooting a BB gun at a freight train.

And the number is 26%, at least in 2017. From a quick Google search.

The number of pitchers with a tear of the UCL is much higher than 26%. For every pitcher that's had TJ, there's another one that's chosen to rehab it without surgery. Seth Lugo is probably one of the most prominent examples. He's pitched three years with it since being diagnosed in 2017. In many cases TJ is required. But in many more cases, it's a choice.

 

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Darn Travel ball **

 

[KingBarkus]

I'm watching Verlander and his recovery from TJ. It will be interesting to see at 38 how effective he will be upon return.

p.s. Does anyone realize how unbelievable it is that Tommy John ended up having Tommy John surgery?

 

[Russ Wheeler]

So you're saying it doesn't happen? Because that's not true. You are making a flat-earth argument here.

I know it happens. But your premise is that it's no big deal. That's dead wrong.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

The number of pitchers with a tear of the UCL is much higher than 26%. For every pitcher that's had TJ, there's another one that's chosen to rehab it without surgery. Seth Lugo is probably one of the most prominent examples. He's pitched three years with it since being diagnosed in 2017. In many cases TJ is required. But in many more cases, it's a choice.

A strain or microtears can be rehabbed. A partial tear can be put together (Keegan James, Ginn, and hopefully Hoglund for his sake). The full tears have to have the figure 8 procedure (17 that noise).

No matter what, your numbers are still highly subjective and can't be used.

 

[Drebin]

I know it happens. But your premise is that it's no big deal. That's dead wrong.

No, that's not my premise at all. It's a big deal. 20% of all TJ patients never pitch again.

My premise is that it's going to happen. And as the technology improves, it's going to continue happening more and more. I know you like to sing from the mountain tops about travel ball pitching, or poor mechanics being chief drivers of causing an elbow injury that can be avoided, I can tell you that it's way more complex than that. There are pitchers with almost perfect fundies who need the surgery. There are position players who haven't pitched much at all who end up getting the surgery.

 

[Drebin]

A strain or microtears can be rehabbed. A partial tear can be put together (Keegan James, Ginn, and hopefully Hoglund for his sake). The full tears have to have the figure 8 procedure (17 that noise).

No matter what, your numbers are still highly subjective and can't be used.

You are the king of subjectivity. But know this: There's a recent MLB pitcher who's won a cy young without a UCL in his throwing arm.

You really have some great takes sometimes, but you are really out of your depth on this subject.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

No, that's not my premise at all. It's a big deal. 20% of all TJ patients never pitch again.

My premise is that it's going to happen. And as the technology improves, it's going to continue happening more and more. I know you like to sing from the mountain tops about travel ball pitching, or poor mechanics being chief drivers of causing an elbow injury that can be avoided, I can tell you that it's way more complex than that. There are pitchers with almost perfect fundies who need the surgery. There are position players who haven't pitched much at all who end up getting the surgery.

I deal in the general rule, not the exceptions.

As far as it happening more and more, yeah, if kids pitch too much with bad fundamentals while trying to throw 150 mph, it most definitely will.

 

[Russ Wheeler]

You are the king of subjectivity. But know this: There's a recent MLB pitcher who's won a cy young without a UCL in his throwing arm.

You really have some great takes sometimes, but you are really out of your depth on this subject.

Ah, another super exception: https://www.caringmedical.com/prolo...f you have a complete,can pitch without a UCL.

But he's not exactly the fireballing velo bro that you are saying is the future, ya know?

 

[Drebin]

Ah, another super exception: https://www.caringmedical.com/prolo...f you have a complete,can pitch without a UCL.

But he's not exactly the fireballing velo bro that you are saying is the future, ya know?

He was a fireballer in college and changed his approach later in his career. But don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

 

[Drebin]

I deal in the general rule, not the exceptions.

As far as it happening more and more, yeah, if kids pitch too much with bad fundamentals while trying to throw 150 mph, it most definitely will.

There are things where general rule applies, and this is not one of those things. If your "general rule" was correct, a lot more people would be getting TJ surgery much earlier in their careers.

Sometimes UCL tears occur because of wear. Sometimes a healthy UCL will tear due to a freak accident. It's a ligament. There's nuance and a ton of different variables that cause injuries to it, just like any other ligament. You can say that overworking kids in travel ball and poor fundamentals as a general rule are leading to spikes in TJ cases, and I can tell you that it's an interesting opinion, and there are others who share that opinion, but the truth is it's just not that simple. I can probably put you in touch with three different orthopedic doctors who would disagree with you. There's no known specific trigger and there's really no way to prevent it. JT Ginn is a great example....that kid was handled with kid gloves his entire career through travel ball and high school...it was important to his family that they were careful with his arm. He was handled with kid gloves here. His mechanics are good. And yet....

Bottom line: pitchers who expect to make a career pitching pretty much expect that they are going to have to deal with this at some point in their career. And that's a fact. It's becoming the cost of doing business more and more.

And let's not pretend it's a new phenomenon. UCL tears were around a long time before the advent of Tommy John surgery. Guys pitched through it, or they retired if they couldn't.

 

[messageboardsuperhero]

I don’t necessarily think Hoglund was overworked this year, but I also read where he had forearm tightness or something in his pregame bullpen.

If that is true, given the fact that Hoglund has already missed a start two weeks ago, I cannot wrap my mind around why Bianco let him go through with the start on Friday. It probably didn’t make a difference in the end, but that was borderline negligence.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

I don’t necessarily think Hoglund was overworked this year, but I also read where he had forearm tightness or something in his pregame bullpen.

If that is true, given the fact that Hoglund has already missed a start two weeks ago, I cannot wrap my mind around why Bianco let him go through with the start on Friday. It probably didn’t make a difference in the end, but that was borderline negligence.

I have no idea what did and didn't contribute to this situation that is probably going to cost him about $1 million. But there are several things that make me question how this was handled.

I agree with you: My multi-million dollar pitcher has forearm tightness/soreness or whatever word was used? No way I let him take the mound against A&M. Diamond started getting loose after the first batter which means they knew something was off after the first batter. He faced five batters. I'm not saying that the 18 pitches he threw Friday contributed to the injury, but it looks bad. This was also two weeks after he missed an entire week because of bicep tightness/soreness or whatever word was used. Not saying they are related, but it looks bad. And apparently he left the South Carolina game after 73 pitches pitching a shutout because something was off. And some are saying (in defense of the staff) the reason he didn't sign out of high school was an elbow issue discovered after he was drafted, so this was "inevitable". Well, isn't that even more reason to be overly cautious with his arm? Not only did he throw a ton of pitches this year, but the end wasn't sudden. It was several things happening over a three week period, and they were still trying to get a start out of him four days ago.

 

[anonymous.sixpack]

It's there, and even still this deal is SO DAMN PREVENTABLE. There's just too many daddy ballers and velo bros out there now, it's like trying to recycle, shooting a BB gun at a freight train.

And the number is 26%, at least in 2017. From a quick Google search.

Says the resident helicopter dad.

 

[Go Budaw]

A strain or microtears can be rehabbed. A partial tear can be put together (Keegan James, Ginn, and hopefully Hoglund for his sake). The full tears have to have the figure 8 procedure (17 that noise).

No matter what, your numbers are still highly subjective and can't be used.

The ligament getting “put back together” is a UCL repair, which is an entirely different procedure than Tommy John surgery. Ginn and James both had the actual reconstruction (Tommy John surgery), as has been confirmed by numerous news sources on both. You’re way misinformed on all this.

 

[oxfordrebel22]

Not to pour salt on the wound, but Ole Miss may have been screwed worst of all last year. That team was loaded.

It was a very good team, for sure. But #5 would’ve still been managing them. But it would’ve been a good team.

However, looking at it objectively.. we lost Servideo and Keenan. Both who were having monster starts to their years. But, we replaced them ultimately with Gonzalez and McCants, both of who are hitting well over .300 in overall play and SEC play as true freshmen. We might have sacrificed a little pop, and a little bit defensively in that trade-off, but it’s a fairly even trade. So, I think what we are seeing this year is basically the same team. And I think it’s a really good team who’s had some really tough injury luck, but they are also losing a lot of close games late for a reason - and those reasons existed last year, too - no bullpen talent or depth, and Bianco over-managing

 

[8dog]

So State and OM got first round picks to school and they both had TJ. Vandy got Rocker and Leiter. Sounds about right.

 

[Go Budaw]

I have no idea what did and didn't contribute to this situation that is probably going to cost him about $1 million. But there are several things that make me question how this was handled.

I agree with you: My multi-million dollar pitcher has forearm tightness/soreness or whatever word was used? No way I let him take the mound against A&M. Diamond started getting loose after the first batter which means they knew something was off after the first batter. He faced five batters. I'm not saying that the 18 pitches he threw Friday contributed to the injury, but it looks bad. This was also two weeks after he missed an entire week because of bicep tightness/soreness or whatever word was used. Not saying they are related, but it looks bad. And apparently he left the South Carolina game after 73 pitches pitching a shutout because something was off. And some are saying (in defense of the staff) the reason he didn't sign out of high school was an elbow issue discovered after he was drafted, so this was "inevitable". Well, isn't that even more reason to be overly cautious with his arm? Not only did he throw a ton of pitches this year, but the end wasn't sudden. It was several things happening over a three week period, and they were still trying to get a start out of him four days ago.

It’s not like its reversible when it gets to the point it reached....which took several years. It’s also not like you can make it more unrecoverable or worse by continuing to pitch. I’m sure he probably knew weeks ago that he would need the surgery, and from that point it was just a matter as to what his pain tolerance was (in terms of actual tolerance as well as how well he could perform in that level of pain). My guess is he told coaches he’d go as far as he could before going under the knife....and he did.

 

[Quincy A. Wagstaff]

It’s not like its reversible when it gets to the point it reached....which took several years. It’s also not like you can make it more unrecoverable or worse by continuing to pitch. I’m sure he probably knew weeks ago that he would need the surgery, and from that point it was just a matter as to what his pain tolerance was (in terms of actual tolerance as well as how well he could perform in that level of pain). My guess is he told coaches he’d go as far as he could before going under the knife....and he did.

I don’t buy that he and the coaches and the training staff knew weeks ago he needed TJ surgery and they decided to let him pitch until it became too painful. What are you basing that guess on? You know that this news is the result of an MRI this week, right?