LOCKED - OT: Preacher Rant

[Hump4Hoops]

Please tell me specifically what you believe would be bad about it.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Look around the world at cultures without morals. Sharia law for one example. Freedom sort of goes out the window too.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Here's one: https://www.christianbook.com/how-now-shall-we-live-softcover/charles-colson/9780842355889/pd/55885

Rest are at home.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

Sharia law is religious extremism -and it IS their morals.

Look around the world at cultures without morals. Sharia law for one example. Freedom sort of goes out the window too.

It's a perfect example of why I want religion out of politics.

Now, if you remove religion (all religions) from politics, what freedoms are you losing?

 

[Xusuromohses]

Something will fill that void. Let's say atheism does it, or even agnosticism. Then there is no absolute morality. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is at the mercy of what society deems acceptable. That starts small and ends in destruction of the whole society. See Rome.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

Great, we have a starting point. Now,

please show me any passages that back up your theory, if you don't mind.

Here's the hard part, what about the scientific advancements of pre-Christian cultures? I don't want to be a jerk and suggest you believe they time traveled, or that the Christians were the first humans, but I'd really like to know how that doesn't immediately disprove your statement.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

What are some examples of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING

that you believe atheists would be in favor of, that would bring down society? I'm a big fan of society, and would personally like for it to stick around.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Scientific method came along in the 1600s, did it not? During enlightenment or whatever.

Science has always been based on the natural world, which ehem...God...created. Study of that was around before Jesus Christ. It didn't start getting based on crazy unobserved things until Darwin and that ilk came around, which for some reason, people took as gospel.

 

[Xusuromohses]

So you like Christian morals and influence? Me too. Glad we agree.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

If you want to call study of the natural world religious

that's your prerogative, and I won't try to stop you. Studying of the natural world does not require adherence to a specific, or any religion.

 

[Xusuromohses]

I particularly noticed how observed science matches up with the writings in the Bible.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

Some of them? Sure. Buddhists and Sikhs too.

Any set of beliefs, religious or not, has the potential to be a positive effect on society. However, specific religious rules should remain cultural, not governmental. Governments should provide the framework in which many different groups of people should be given fair and equal opportunity to thrive, and shouldn't favor or enforce the rules of any one religion.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Any set of beliefs, religious or not, has the potential to be a positive effect on society. However, specific religious rules should remain cultural, not governmental. Governments should provide the framework in which many different groups of people should be given fair and equal opportunity to thrive, and shouldn't favor or enforce the rules of any one religion.

Christianity is the religion that allows that to work. For all the similarities of the world's biggest religions, Christianity stands alone in this regard, especially in terms of democracy and freedom. I mean, one of the only differences in Christianity and Islam is the belief in the crucifixion of Christ, and what that means. But it is that very worldview that separates Christianity. The other religions have never produced a society as fruitful as the one we are living in at the moment.

 

[anon1787432961]

1) Guilt and Shame temporary management 101:


2) Believe only in Science because it is repeatable and therefore can be trusted wholeheartedly unlike anything else.

3) Love is nothing but biology, so when you propose to your girlfriend, tell her it's because of biological chemicals in your brain and the built-in desire deep in your brain for the preservation of the human race through procreation.

4) Men go abroad to wonder at the heights of mountains, at the huge waves of the sea, at the long courses of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motions of the stars, and they pass by themselves without wondering. - Saint Augustine

5) "But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!" But do good: we will meet one another there. - Pope Francis

6) If you only go to church to "get something out of it" you will never grow. You go to church to learn how to give and to how to love. Faith that sits on it's *** isn't faith. Sorry.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

I'll refute this one wholesale.

The importance of religiousness, Christianity, etc. is not required to be a successful modern democracy.

See: Sweeden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, United Kingdom, Finland, France, Australia, The Netherlands, New Zealand (not strongly religious countries)

Also, being a strongly Christian country doesn't ensure unlimited freedom and success:

See: Mexico, Ukraine, Venezuela, Argentina


If the U.S. started electing presidents that weren't devout Christians, our society would continue just fine.

 

[patdog]

If the U.S. started electing presidents that weren't devout Christians, our society would continue just fine.

Most of our presidents haven't been all that devout.

 

[BeardoMSU]

I particularly noticed how observed science matches up with the writings in the Bible.

Stop listening to Ken Hamm....

 

[Rezpup]

It's a perfect example of why I want religion out of politics.

Now, if you remove religion (all religions) from politics, why freedoms are you losing?

Arguably all of them if you agree that it follows that if moral law exists there must be a moral law giver. But since all men are created in the image of God (which means we humans were given a conscience) there are certainly times when non-Christians can put Christians to shame morally.

this lecture rebuts the idea that you have to choose between science or God with difficult Q&A at the end for those interested in this subject

audio is corrected at 6:40 mark

https://youtu.be/l63-fkyDtOc

eta: Of course no one in this society believes the government should force religious views on the people it's just that our basic laws (thou shall not commit murder; don't steal) come from God. Getting away from the onerous Church of England is what started this whole thing we celebrated yesterday.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

You missed some bigger softballs like Haiti, the Congos, Central African Republic, etc., that are 80-90% Christian and successful democracies like Japan and Taiwan that are in the low single digits.

 

[drt7891]

I'm really curious to know how the government

Unfortunately, the government is going to continue to involve itself more and more with churches, so they don't really get to be non-political anymore. Whether they want to be or not, churches are involved in politics.

Is involving itself in churches. From a 10K foot view, id say the opposite is happening. Our government, more than most governments throughout history (including the government that drove many "outcast" religions to the colonies in the 1700s.), has stayed out of churches and church business.

The churches/people wanting morality and "religious fears" passed into law are doing a much better job infiltrating governments (particularly state and local) than the other way around.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy the argument that the government is getting too involved In churches. It's just not happening.

I am a Christian. But to me, there is value in the idea of "separation of church and state." I know very well I'm in the minority here, but I think the state has done a better job of staying out of churches that the other way around. That's my opinion, though.


I'm sure I'll be met with rebuttal, so I'm letting this dog sleep...

 

[Xusuromohses]

The importance of religiousness, Christianity, etc. is not required to be a successful modern democracy.

See: Sweeden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, United Kingdom, Finland, France, Australia, The Netherlands, New Zealand (not strongly religious countries)

Also, being a strongly Christian country doesn't ensure unlimited freedom and success:

See: Mexico, Ukraine, Venezuela, Argentina


If the U.S. started electing presidents that weren't devout Christians, our society would continue just fine.

https://www.gotquestions.org/democracy-Christian.html

Of note:

Modern democracy grew out of a culture steeped in a Judeo-Christian worldview.

Your refute is missing the point.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Had no idea who that was, but now that I looked him up, why shouldn't I listen to him?

 

[ShrubDog]

There is a reason why non 501(c)(3) churches exist, they don't have to be silent on political issues. The bible may discuss the issues at hand but the pastors of mega churches will not go there.

 

[seshomoru]

Because dinosaurs and people did not live together. That's one reason.

Good to have you back, Goat. Nice username.

 

[BeardoMSU]

Because dinosaurs and people did not live together. That's one reason.

Lol, beat me to it.

Yep, this....

...is just one of the reasons that guy is a nut-job.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of Hamm, Xusuromohses; your use of the phrase "observed science" as it relates to the Bible (vs. historical science) is one of the main arguments Hamm uses, which is why I referenced him.....

 

[seshomoru]

It's Goat. He's just doing it 17 up the board. I'd like to ban him again but I kind of like the new username. I feel honored.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Actually, there's plenty of evidence that they did, and that their fossils date back to the Great Flood. I think you are much crazier than me by placing your faith in a 'scientist' who throws out a million years like it's something any of us could ever know.

 

[Xusuromohses]

You certainly are one self righteous prick, I'll tell you that. God will just have to forgive me for the name calling.

 

[patdog]

Because dinosaurs and people did not live together.

Oh yeah? Then how do you explain this?