LOCKED - OT: Preacher Rant

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preacher_dawg

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Ok, most of you guys seem pretty normal. I have to rant. So I went to a fireworks show put on by a church and the preacher got up to preach and... I don't know... He really didn't preach from the Bible, it was all about asking Jesus into your heart, waving your hands if you love Jesus, and anybody who walked up front got saved, so stand up and clap for them. To me, it was all that is wrong with the Christian culture. Very little meat to the sermon, gotta show everyone that I will stand up for God (never mind that my actions may not reflect it, as long as I don't stand out by not standing up and waving my hands), and worst of all, telling people that they are Christians when maybe all they did was walk a couple feet. I always strive to support other churches and ministries, but I felt as if I was just watching a circus with the preacher as a ringleader. It seemed as if it was a performance and we were called to do our part, even if we weren't sincere. I left not edified but saddened that this is my town that I care for and pray over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I would love to get your opinion, including non-Christians.
 
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BELdog

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Personally, I think that is EVERYTHING that is wrong with the Christian culture. The fact that there is such a thing as a "Christian Culture" is a problem. The church as an organization will be the death of real Christianity. People who call themselves Christians without living it are turning the world against those people whom truly follow Christ. The Good News is not about buying a ticket to heaven at the end of a good sermon. It's about honestly changing people's lives and serving one another. A good portion of "Christians" lost that somewhere along the way.
 

JungRebel

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Jesus dude, read some Kierkegaard, realize you will always be a stranger and alien in this world and let the hand wavers wave their hands. Ok, you asked for it:

Atheistic opinion: There will never be an objective method for determining 'true Christianity.' There will never be an objective method for determining what any metaphysical entity truly is, because they aren't objects and they don't offer the clear cut certainty objects offer. Example: You might wake up today and call something 'truly secular' that you called 'truly Christian' yesterday, but you will never wake up and call an object a 'table' today after having called it a 'chair' for all of your life beforehand.

Religions, philosophies, political movements, are not based on objective criteria. They are based on authoritarian figures. When the authoritarian dies, the followers are left to sort out any and all possible contradictions in the teachings.

See, e.g., what has happened to Christianity, Nietzsche's philosophy, Marxism, etc. Some of the people who claim and have claimed to be influenced by these ideals have nothing in common with the people who first articulated them. Just look at how ISIS has interpreted the Quran—it is completely consistent if you begin with their premises (which is to literally take the verse of the sword and claim, using the islamic notion of 'abrogation,' that it nullifies everything else about creating a peaceful society in the book—it all hinges on their interpretation of the word 'infidel,' which, again, has no objective criteria because Muhammad never gave it one other than 'the people who aren't following my religion'; once he died his notion of 'my religion' (Islam) was open for interpretation and argument because he, the authoritarian, was not there to give the final say any more).

Don't believe that religions are all authoritarian logical systems? The proof is in the fact that none of them can dispense with their gods or prophets or teachers (Buddhism included). The word for 'submission' in Arabic is literally...Islam. The other Abrahamic traditions are similarly authoritarian—one humbled oneself before a higher power, and the priest is his intermediate power.

It all seems (but is not) clear cut: A Muslim is a person who submits to god. But this just pushes the question further back, because to truly submit to god we would need to know what god truly is, and again god is a metaphysical entity (not an object), and as such defies objective classification. We are in a situation where we are trying to submit to an authority but we don't really know what it is or how best to submit to it. The atheist knows that the only way out of this situation is to be dogmatic about certain beliefs, but the atheist with a good head on his shoulders cannot be dogmatic about anything with a clear intellectual conscience.

tl;dr: only an authority can define religious doctrine. When that authority dies several authorities vie to define that doctrine, and all must do so dogmatically, causing an ever present tension in the meaning(s) of the movement, sectarianism is inevitable.

PM me if you actually want to discuss this. Should get locked up pretty quickly. Sorry for the long response but you asked for it and I don't always feel comfortable telling these opinions to people I know in person and whose opinion of me I care about.
 
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MaroonNation

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Personally, I think that is EVERYTHING that is wrong with the Christian culture. The fact that there is such a thing as a "Christian Culture" is a problem.

What killed the Christian Church is the Pinelake Small Group. Form friend networks and push out anyone who doesn't attend Pinelake because THEY are the reason for all your problems.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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Good news my friends! God's grace is real. What you've been doesn't determine your worthiness for salvation. We are redeemed through Christ!

I read scripture daily because I hunger for the hope,peace and knowledge it provides. My faith in God is not facilitated through a church. I do attend church regularly, but I don't fixate on the sins of the fellow members to justify my own sins. We are all beggars (sinners) showing other beggars where the bread of life can be found.
 

TrueMaroonGrind

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I know non-scriptural preaching has become common with some southern baptist preachers. I try to avoid those types of preachers if at all possible. No way as a Christian can you trust a preacher without him teaching with scripture backed sermons.

I haven't really witnessed the non-scriptural, just come accept Jesus approach. That is very scary.
 

Bucky Dog

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Nov 10, 2012
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My two cents, and I will TRY and keep it short:

I grew up in the southern baptist church as a child, and along the way I realized it was becoming more judgmental and hypocritical in my eyes as I matured. It pushed me away to an extent to feel so judged by even going to church. IMO, Christianity, based on the teachings of the Bible, was the literal word and actions of the authors as written. You have seen over time that the interpretations and re-interpretations of what the authors intended have created many different branches of the church to be more inclusive of those who feel more "comfortable" with those interpretations as it pertains to them.

I believe in the literal words of the Bible and choose to believe that God is real and has a place for us in heaven. I started back at Pinelake years ago before they moved to the mega campuses and have spread out. I know they get some heat at times, but first and foremost Chip is a great guy and a true Dog. What I have appreciated about him and that church is I don't feel judged and can choose to worship how I want, and can choose a small group or not, which we don't choose. I believe the purpose of those is if you want a more intimate setting with others who have similar lives and challenges and to be able to share experiences and grow with like people. Chip has never judged anyone and he bases his teaching straight from the Bible and has a way to make it relevant in my life and to each individual. I remember when the gay marriage thing started it's uprise and Chip's response to the church was we choose to believe it is not acceptable to marry or whatever with ththe same sex because that's what the Bible teaches us, BUT, we are just as guilty as sin if we judge those that are not like us. Their is only one great judge will will make decision about our choices in life.

So back to the original OP, i don't agree with the all for show approach and pat you on the back and call you a Christian for dancing and walking to the front and telling you that you are saved and are a Christian. What makes me a Christian, are my actions, conversations with God, the way I treat people and the decisions I make, and struggle with daily, to be that follower and good person.
 

mcdawg22

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Sep 18, 2004
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Personally, I think that is EVERYTHING that is wrong with the Christian culture. The fact that there is such a thing as a "Christian Culture" is a problem. The church as an organization will be the death of real Christianity. People who call themselves Christians without living it are turning the world against those people whom truly follow Christ. The Good News is not about buying a ticket to heaven at the end of a good sermon. It's about honestly changing people's lives and serving one another. A good portion of "Christians" lost that somewhere along the way.
You and I may disagree on a lot, but this is not one of those times. This is perfectly stated. Bravo sir.
 

DawgatAuburn

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What makes me a Christian, are my actions, conversations with God, the way I treat people and the decisions I make, and struggle with daily, to be that follower and good person.

I'm going to be a little bit of a stickler here even though by your post I feel sure you know this. Just want to make sure others who read it understand. None of that listed above makes you a Christian. Ephesians 2:8 (among others) clarifies that. The way you live your life as described above is evidence of the decision you made to accept the salvation God offers through faith in Christ.
 

LawDawg97

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Sep 7, 2012
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Weird thing to rant about

And as for walking a few feet to be saved, Christ himself told the sinner on the cross he was saved for uttering some words. Because he knew what was in the man's heart. Maybe Christ was truly in the heart of that preacher and in those that listened. I just wouldn't judge it brother since it doesn't sound like it was anything blasphemous. My two cents
 

LawDawg97

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Awww. Somebody didn't get invited and got his feewings hurt.

I don't go to Pinelake but with the way you post in here I can think of a few reasons why you didn't
 

preacher_dawg

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Thanks for all the input, especially yours Jung. I'm glad to know this would not offend you. I need to go back and re-read your post after I haven't stayed up until 4:30 in the morning.

It's not that I don't think that some of those people possibly could become Christians. I praise God for those that did. Problem is telling them and others that they are most certainly Christians simply by walking a few feet. I think that the Christian culture (and especially the South) is filled with many false converts. For this reason, one theologian calls the South "the burnt over district," and as a pastor who cares about people and their salvation, this absolutely kills me inside, and at times, I feel helpless to change it because people are so engrossed into that type of culture. Again, thanks for your input.
 
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Be A Traveler

Some of the best advice I ever received was from a J. I. Packer book, "Knowing God", on the differences between travelers and balconeers. Focus on being a traveler and less on what others are doing. I graduated from MC, wanted to be in the ministry. Two of my best friends are pastors from big and small churches, Methodist and Presbyterian. Their problems are different but criticism and disagreements among members are universal problems of both, much larger dangers to the church than the ones you listed IMO.

I say this in humility and could be wrong with you but typically people with the time to criticize how others are doing it aren't doing much themselves. Since Pinelake was brought up, I am a member there. It's not perfect and I'd prefer a smaller church. I'm probably a bit unique in that our pastor, Chip Henderson, mentored me for a while at his Brookhaven church shortly after I became a Christian 22 years ago, before he became a big deal in the Jackson area. I'll stand up for Chip. He's not perfect but I respect that guy as much as anyone. He's legit and has been good to me, and has had a huge impact on a lot of people. And Pinelake, though certainly with issues, has a large core group of people that do as much good as any church I've ever been around.

J. I. Packer, Knowing God preface
"In "A Preface to Christian Theology", John Mackay illustrated two kinds of interest in Christian things by picturing persons sitting on the high front balcony of a Spanish house watching travelers go by on the road below. The "balconeers" can overhear the travelers' talk and chat with them; they may comment critically on the way that the travelers walk; or they may discuss questions about the road, how it can exist at all or lead anywhere, what might be seen from different points along it, and so forth; but they are onlookers, and their problems are theoretical only. The travelers, by contrast face problems which, though they have their theoretical angle, are essentially practical-problems of the "which-way-to-go" and "how-to-make-it type, problems which call not merely for comprehension but for decision and action too.

Balconeers and travelers may think over the same area, yet their problems differ. Thus (for instance) in relation to evil, the balconeer's problem, is to find a theoretical explanation of how evil can consist of God's sovereignty and goodness, bu the travelers problem is how to master evil and bring good out of it. Or again, in relation to sin, the balconeer asks whether sinfulness and personal perversity are really credible, while the traveler, knowing sin from within, asks what hope their is of deliverance. Or take the problem of the Godhead; while the balconeer is asking how one God can conceivably be three, what sort of unity three could have, and how three who make one can be persons, the traveler wants to know how to show proper honor, love and trust toward the three Persons who are now together at work to bring him out of sin to glory. And so we might go on."
 
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MaroonNation

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So you're the one who talked Chip into bringing Freeze there.
























Just kidding Chris. I'm one of the few here who actually listens to The Gridiron and doesn't call you a homer. Great show. You and Jackson keep up the good work!
 

MaroonNation

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I beg to differ. You honestly should stalk me less. We did try Pinelake and liked many things about it, mainly their vibrant youth groups that my kids tried to become a part of. Frankly, if you didn't grow up in Rankin county and your kids don't attend Hartsfield Academy you just don't fit in at Pinelake.
 

thatsbaseball

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I was raised Catholic (now Methodist) and educated in a Catholic school through the eighth grade. Non of this "how to show you're a Christian" gibberish resonates with me. Coming up in our school you and everyone else knew you were a Christian, if you had problems with the concept our nuns would "work" with you until you understood LOL. To this day I am confident and comfortable with my faith and have never had the urge to show it off in a public display. I know somewhere up there Sister Mary Cornelius is watching....yard stick in hand.**
 
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preacher_dawg

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Hey Chris, I typically don't care what other churches do, how they go about ministry, or even their doctrine, as long as they hold to and teach essentials of the Christian faith. Really, my hope is that they are successful, but I can't stand the idea of creating false converts and an empty shell of Christianity, simply because I care so much for this town where God put me. Thanks for your input. It was food for thought in other areas of my life.
 
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Appreciate it. It's funny now to see Chip and Hugh connected. With the growth of the church I'm not around Chip at all, but was close to him back in the day and he's 100% hardcore MSU. Great dude. He sticks up for Hugh and obviously they're friends. I wish them both well. Not perfect but presenting the gospel to a lot of people.
 
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Sorry, I know that came across as critical of you personally but I'm speaking in general. While I agree with a lot of what you said, it's dangerous territory determining who are false converts. I mean this in general again and not about you because I'm sure you were sincere, but there are more red flags in someone criticizing how people are saved on a message board than people actually working to see people saved. And I'm also guilty of talking about this critically on a message board. Worth two cents though.
 
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Wizard.sixpack

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Sep 15, 2009
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What is wrong is that the perception of Christians is that it is a group of people who think they are perfect and are expected to walk a fine line. The reason is there are some denominations that reflect this idea. Most people don't want anything to do with that lifestyle. There is way too much pressure. Truth is Christians are like everyone else. We are rebellious against God by nature with a natural desire to sin. The difference is Jesus died for those sins and welcomes those He calls as His own and those are saved.
 

kired

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the preacher got up to preach and... I don't know... He really didn't preach from the Bible, it was all about asking Jesus into your heart, waving your hands if you love Jesus, and anybody who walked up front got saved, so stand up and clap for them.

I think some "preachers" - if they would be honest with you - don't even believe in God themselves. They are intentionally misleading people but don't really care because they aren't believers to begin with. Church is just a social experience or maybe just their way of making a living.

I had a situation when i was about 15 that forever changed my opinion on church leaders (~20 years ago). Our church was all white, but our youth group had a black kid start attending. Long story short... deacons in the church basically said the kid wasn't allowed to join the church because of the color of his skin. Church ends up splitting in half over this. But how in the world can a group of men who are supposed to be the spiritual leaders of the church discriminate against someone because of their race? How do you call yourself a Christian but tell a 16 year old kid he's not allowed to attend your church because he's black?

So while I realize most preachers and church leaders are sincere (my dad was a preacher for 25 years, preached from the Bible, and certainly wasn't in it for the money), there are many out there that are not. And the thing is, those "preachers" will say whatever to make people listen or to make them feel good.
 

coachnorm

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Jul 23, 2015
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Look at the Church as your practice field. Look at outside the doors of your church as your game field. The bad example of churchgoers outside the doors, game field, is destroying Christianity with the exception of Latin America and Sub Sahara Africa. What scares me is the rapid decline of Christianity in North America, Europe, and Australia/New Zealand. To add fear, Islam is growing while we are declining. Once we shrivel to nothing, our viewpoints and politics will be marginalized.

From a historical stand point the Southern Baptist Religion stems from Scotsman, John Knox who influences theology with The Presbyterians who fled persecution of the Anglican Church. Presbyterian belligerence of Anglicanism was brutally suppressed in the old country, Northern Ireland and West Scotland. Presbyterians had to flee, their homes, for their lives. Records of belligerence were forwarded to the American Colonies thus, the refugees needed to flee Colonial Cities to escape prosecution of the Crown. They went rural and religiously struggled due to isolation, the new product was Southern Baptist.

Now Scotland is abandoning Christianity?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-40467084
 

preacher_dawg

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That's OK Chris. I know I am probably coming across as extremely judgemental, especially on a message board, but I consider this board more of a community by people who I consider to be pretty normal (I think most State fans are) and representative of people in the South. I was very curious as to what others had to say.

And I'm not saying that those who walked were absolutely false converts, but I have met many people who through this style of evangelism thought they were Christians when they were not. With that being said, false conversions to Christianity can happen under any style of ministry, including mine. It's just from what I saw, everything lended itself very easily to false conversions.
 

preacher_dawg

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I'm sorry for your experience kired. One of the saddest sins in churches has been and many times continues to be racism, and sometimes leaders not willing to stand up to it.
 

amcdan2000

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Blurred lines in religion today. Most all agree on Heaven and Hell. It's come down to as long as you are a nice, kind person to others, you're going to Heaven. Even some preachers are afraid to preach because they will offend someone. The left and media have shamed Christians into thinking there was something wrong with us and we needed to be quiet. Just like during Obama. If we criticized him, we were racists. I personally don't care what church or belief anyone has, but everyone should be able to celebrate what they believe without being treated as though we are backward hicks.
 

MaroonNation

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Now Scotland is abandoning Christianity?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-40467084

Christianity went on a sharp decline post WWII in Europe. Seeing the shear scale of death and destruction brought upon innocent populations has that affect. One loses their faith in a God that would allow such atrocities to happen. We were isolated from the real outcome of global war because it never made it to our shores outside Pearl Harbor and even then most Americans couldn't relate. That's why religion had maintained its stronghold here. The general population didn't lose faith.

Massive and unchallenged waves of Muslims in most European countries rallying and protesting and walking around with signs demanding decapitation of publically elected officials in downtown London will do that. The main population would probably much sooner abonden their beliefs and submit to the aggressive nature of Islam than to actually fight against it and stand up for their beliefs.
 

greenbean.sixpack

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Materialism is what has killed the modern Christian Church. We started at Pinelake at the old location and really brought in, but as it grew and moved to the current location, it seemed that the dollar became more and more important. Pinelake likely is one the larger employers in the county, the payroll of the Chip, and a few others is pretty significant, much more than I think was ever envisioned by early church leaders.

When we first joined, it seemed that deeds were more important than words, now it seems the words are more important than actions, this may be why Chip and Freeze have buddied up. Actions don't matter as long as you say the right words.

We tithed and gave for years, but it got to a point that we started thinking, how much is going to buildings and salaries? Pinelake has become a corporation with careerists and that has turned me off.

Chip is the best preacher I have ever heard (maybe with the exception of Francis Chan), so we still go, but don't get involved like we did in the past.
 
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vhdawg

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I cringe every time I hear somebody talk about "asking Jesus into your heart". Where is that in the Bible?
 

Dawg73

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Jun 6, 2017
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It's very refreshing to see dialogue about Christianity. What can be more important than where we spend eternity? But, sadly, that topic seems taboo to most people. No matter what you believe, it's nice to be able to respectfully discuss those beliefs.
 

mount lefroy

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Feb 10, 2013
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Ok, most of you guys seem pretty normal. I have to rant. So I went to a fireworks show put on by a church and the preacher got up to preach and... I don't know... He really didn't preach from the Bible, it was all about asking Jesus into your heart, waving your hands if you love Jesus, and anybody who walked up front got saved, so stand up and clap for them. To me, it was all that is wrong with the Christian culture. Very little meat to the sermon, gotta show everyone that I will stand up for God (never mind that my actions may not reflect it, as long as I don't stand out by not standing up and waving my hands), and worst of all, telling people that they are Christians when maybe all they did was walk a couple feet. I always strive to support other churches and ministries, but I felt as if I was just watching a circus with the preacher as a ringleader. It seemed as if it was a performance and we were called to do our part, even if we weren't sincere. I left not edified but saddened that this is my town that I care for and pray over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I would love to get your opinion, including non-Christians.

The fallacy is not in how the preacher preached. It's in the assumption that those individuals are suddenly 'saved' and that nothing further will take place. There is another step. They have to individually and honestly seek a relationship with God and that is only something they will know. We are not Christians by our hand waving or our church attendance, or our knowledge of the Bible. We are Christian based on our relationship with God and the evidence of that is our faith and the love we show to ALL of God's children.

I used to sit in front of the Tv and boil how Falwell, Tilton, Swaggart and Baker would 'trick' people into coming to a relationship with God. Well now I think so what. Their souls are safe if their heart and intent to know God is sincere.

That said, it becomes pretty obvious that Christianity is misused to call attention to oneself. It doesnt say one thing about the validity of the Bible or its teaching. It does say something about the individual. But dont worry. Man has been doing this since BEFORE the Bible we read was compiled.
 

ababyatemydingo

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Nov 27, 2008
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Ok, most of you guys seem pretty normal. I have to rant. So I went to a fireworks show put on by a church and the preacher got up to preach and... I don't know... He really didn't preach from the Bible, it was all about asking Jesus into your heart, waving your hands if you love Jesus, and anybody who walked up front got saved, so stand up and clap for them. To me, it was all that is wrong with the Christian culture. Very little meat to the sermon, gotta show everyone that I will stand up for God (never mind that my actions may not reflect it, as long as I don't stand out by not standing up and waving my hands), and worst of all, telling people that they are Christians when maybe all they did was walk a couple feet. I always strive to support other churches and ministries, but I felt as if I was just watching a circus with the preacher as a ringleader. It seemed as if it was a performance and we were called to do our part, even if we weren't sincere. I left not edified but saddened that this is my town that I care for and pray over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I would love to get your opinion, including non-Christians.


When asked what his religion was, Abe Lincoln said, " my religion is...if I do good, I feel good. If I do bad, I feel bad".
 

coachnorm

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Jul 23, 2015
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Christianity went on a sharp decline post WWII in Europe. Seeing the shear scale of death and destruction brought upon innocent populations has that affect. One loses their faith in a God that would allow such atrocities to happen. We were isolated from the real outcome of global war because it never made it to our shores outside Pearl Harbor and even then most Americans couldn't relate. That's why religion had maintained its stronghold here. The general population didn't lose faith.

Massive and unchallenged waves of Muslims in most European countries rallying and protesting and walking around with signs demanding decapitation of publically elected officials in downtown London will do that. The main population would probably much sooner abonden their beliefs and submit to the aggressive nature of Islam than to actually fight against it and stand up for their beliefs.

In London They chose not to fight, they just moved out instead of submitting to local Islam. About WWII you are on point in many regards. At 18, the United States Navy stationed me to a forward operating base called Holy Loch, Scotland. I returned to the States when I was 22. I learned from scores of Scots and Brits how vivid WWII was in their minds in the early 1970s.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-21511904
 

maroonmadman

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Nov 7, 2010
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Too many churches have de-evolved into businesses and like businesses they focus too much on the bottom line, profit. Some expand just for the sake, or appearance, of things without expanding spiritually. Folks who have tell you what good Christians they are generally aren't.
 
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