LOCKED - OT: Preacher Rant

[Chris Brooks.sixpack]

The older I get the more things get convoluted, especially in church. Bible study and theology is important, but there are few truths worth really fighting over. But I've never seen someone do what you're describing and literally never mention a salvation road or I'd agree with you. I've seen different styles. Do they know they're a sinner? Do they believe Jesus is the way to salvation? Believe his death and resurrection? Repentance? I think coming forward can signify all those things happened.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

No reason to be scared.

What scares me is the rapid decline of Christianity in North America, Europe, and Australia/New Zealand.

We non-religious can be a very easy people to get along with. We typically just want religion out of politics, and science to lead the way.

 

[Wizard.sixpack]

What's important when looking for a church, vibrant youth groups or one breaking down each verse and explaining in true context?

 

[ShrubDog]

We non-religious can be a very easy people to get along with. We typically just want religion out of politics, and science to lead the way.

^^^ Politcal Scientist

 

[Dawgzilla]

Damn, I thought this thread was about the TV show...

 

[was21]

I'll contrast your experience with 12 years of teaching by the Brothers of the Sacred Heart in Vicksburg. I'll meet it and raise you a hunnerd...that was some tough ole boys who demanded discipline. I don't know whether it improved or ruined my life

 

[tired]

I cringe every time I hear somebody talk about "asking Jesus into your heart". Where is that in the Bible?

It's not. It's a way for people to ask Jesus to take control. Romans 10:9 confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart that Jesus is Lord, you shall be saved. That verse may confuse some folks, but we got to be careful with telling people they'll be saved if they ask Christ into their hearts. It's simply not true.

Paul prayed “that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith” (Ephesians 3:17). But Paul is writing to believers who had already received Christ. Paul is not telling the Ephesians to “ask Jesus into their hearts”; he is simply elevating their awareness that Jesus is present within them through the Holy Spirit.

 

[MaroonNation]

If you have kids that is what is most important.

 

[DerHntr]

Basically I think your group's social construction of reality differs substantially from the church you attended and it seems insincere compared to your group. If the difference was perceived to be much greater, you would possibly feel the need to save them.

 

[drt7891]

One of the most frustrating trends I've seen

Ok, most of you guys seem pretty normal. I have to rant. So I went to a fireworks show put on by a church and the preacher got up to preach and... I don't know... He really didn't preach from the Bible, it was all about asking Jesus into your heart, waving your hands if you love Jesus, and anybody who walked up front got saved, so stand up and clap for them. To me, it was all that is wrong with the Christian culture. Very little meat to the sermon, gotta show everyone that I will stand up for God (never mind that my actions may not reflect it, as long as I don't stand out by not standing up and waving my hands), and worst of all, telling people that they are Christians when maybe all they did was walk a couple feet. I always strive to support other churches and ministries, but I felt as if I was just watching a circus with the preacher as a ringleader. It seemed as if it was a performance and we were called to do our part, even if we weren't sincere. I left not edified but saddened that this is my town that I care for and pray over. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I would love to get your opinion, including non-Christians.

Is how muddied the waters between faith and politics has become. Politics are important, but my faith and politics are nowhere in the same plane. God's only blessings are not poured out to us through which side of the aisle has political power... and making "left vs right" = "secular vs Christianity" is really affecting the church. Christianity as a whole Is most influential, not in legislative power, but in the freedom and will of the church to go into communities and make impacts. That is getting muddier and muddier.

 

[615dawg]

Churches should operate as hospitals for sinners, not a hall of fame for the righteous. Too many churches are the latter, and it is worse in the rural areas. There are some hurting people in the rural parts of the South, but they aren't welcome in First Baptist Church of whatever.

I'm the worst sinner I know, and I know that I am in need of a grace that only Christ can give. The "asking jesus into your heart" crap that has been around for a few decades has sent more people to hell than anything Satan has ever devised.

 

[BELdog]

My argument to your story, Kired, is that those people were not Christians. It doesn't matter what they called themselves. They were not living the Word. It's as simple as that. This goes back to my earlier post. Lots of people identify as "Christians", but they don't know what it means and they don't represent Chris.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

The decline began well before WWII. I've occasionally taught Civilization classes and have sometimes called Civ I the rise of religions and Civ II the rise of nations.

 

[missouridawg]

Is how muddied the waters between faith and politics has become. Politics are important, but my faith and politics are nowhere in the same plane. God's only blessings are not poured out to us through which side of the aisle has political power... and making "left vs right" = "secular vs Christianity" is really affecting the church. Christianity as a whole Is most influential, not in legislative power, but in the freedom and will of the church to go into communities and make impacts. That is getting muddier and muddier.

The politicization of religion is the biggest reason I'm essentially out of it. I'm fine with people believing in an old book and living by its creed as long as that creed doesn't impede upon the lives of others who choose to live differently. Legislating a "creed" is the worst.

 

[mount lefroy]

The politicization of religion is the biggest reason I'm essentially out of it. I'm fine with people believing in an old book and living by its creed as long as that creed doesn't impede upon the lives of others who choose to live differently. Legislating a "creed" is the worst.

I dont blame you for your feelings about religion. But while religion is the manmade manifestation of a set of beliefs, Jesus had nothing to do with that. That old book as you refer to it isnt even a book. It's a set of writings that describe what Jesus meant to the people who told those stories. Creeds are the result of men wanting to differentiate themselves from others who didnt believe the same set of facts they did.

In the end, Jesus teaching was never designed to differentiate. That is what man did with his teaching just like they did with the law the creator gave to man

You've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[missouridawg]

I dont blame you for your feelings about religion. But while religion is the manmade manifestation of a set of beliefs, Jesus had nothing to do with that. That old book as you refer to it isnt even a book. It's a set of writings that describe what Jesus meant to the people who told those stories. Creeds are the result of men wanting to differentiate themselves from others who didnt believe the same set of facts they did.

In the end, Jesus teaching was never designed to differentiate. That is what man did with his teaching just like they did with the law the creator gave to man

You've thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

My 5 month old is sleeping peacefully in his crib amongst a sea of fireworks outside. His bath went much more smoothly earlier this evening than you're giving me credit for.

 

[fang]

OP: ALL examples of people becoming Christians are located in the book of Acts [2:36-42, 47, 8:4-13, 8:26-40, 9:1-20, 22:3-16, 10 (Cornelius - whole chapter) & 11:14 (words by which you and your household will be saved), 16:13-15, 18:7-8, 19: 1-5]. If one wants to become a Christian - just do what they did. Romans- Revelation are written to Christians (Congregations or Individuals) and tell them (and subsequently us) how to live in this world

 

[Wizard.sixpack]

No it's not

 

[mount lefroy]

My 5 month old is sleeping peacefully in his crib amongst a sea of fireworks outside. His bath went much more smoothly earlier this evening than you're giving me credit for.

touche

you are no literalist. or are you?

 

[PineGroveBully]

You know why you never take just one baptist fishing with you? If carrying one then carry two. If you carry one then he'll drink all of your beer, if you carry two they won't drink a drop.

that said I'm both a baptist and a fisherman

 

[lanceharbor7]

The politicization of religion is the biggest reason I'm essentially out of it. I'm fine with people believing in an old book and living by its creed as long as that creed doesn't impede upon the lives of others who choose to live differently. Legislating a "creed" is the worst.

This comes to mind for some reason:

 

[Dawg73]

For any non-believers who may read this thread, I'd encourage you to read about the true story behind the movie "The Case For Christ". Basically, the atheist legal editor of the Chicago Tribune went on a 2 year journey of investigation to disprove Christ. At the end of those two years.....he's now a Christian. The bible says those who seek Him will find Him. Go on that journey for yourself and it could change your life in the most amazing way.

 

[gymdawg.sixpack]

My thoughts too. If you dont agree with 1 particular church's way of doing things, find another. We're all different in the ways of our worship, sacrifice, etc. It doesnt necessarily make any 1 of us wrong.

 

[JungRebel]

Thanks for all the input, especially yours Jung. I'm glad to know this would not offend you. I need to go back and re-read your post after I haven't stayed up until 4:30 in the morning.

It's not that I don't think that some of those people possibly could become Christians. I praise God for those that did. Problem is telling them and others that they are most certainly Christians simply by walking a few feet. I think that the Christian culture (and especially the South) is filled with many false converts. For this reason, one theologian calls the South "the burnt over district," and as a pastor who cares about people and their salvation, this absolutely kills me inside, and at times, I feel helpless to change it because people are so engrossed into that type of culture. Again, thanks for your input.

I'll add that if and only if the people you originally posted about are true charlatans then you can disregard my post in its entirety, acting in that way is a wholly different manner. (Not that you were accusing them of that.) If they earnestly believe they are doing the right thing then everything I wrote applies to the situation.

 

[JungRebel]

I have read his book and its pretty good, same goes for C.S. Lewis. I feel both gloss over some difficult problems at times. (Exclusivity for Strobel, free will and good and evil for Lewis.) I recommend Kierkegaard for anyone who is interested in good Christian writing. "Fear and Trembling" is a great book where he plays psychologist for Abraham and talks about how God can suspend ethical boundaries for his purposes.

 

[dorndawg]

A sort-of related long read. Great writing.

http://www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/1248-speed-away

 

[johnson86-1]

Is how muddied the waters between faith and politics has become. Politics are important, but my faith and politics are nowhere in the same plane. God's only blessings are not poured out to us through which side of the aisle has political power... and making "left vs right" = "secular vs Christianity" is really affecting the church. Christianity as a whole Is most influential, not in legislative power, but in the freedom and will of the church to go into communities and make impacts. That is getting muddier and muddier.

Unfortunately, the government is going to continue to involve itself more and more with churches, so they don't really get to be non-political anymore. Whether they want to be or not, churches are involved in politics.

 

[1msucub]

I cringe every time I hear somebody talk about "asking Jesus into your heart". Where is that in the Bible?

It's not. The sinner's prayer, as it's called, is not a scriptural concept. Many people will often point to the thief on the cross as an example of salvation without baptism, by just acknowledging Christ as Lord, but fail to recognize a couple of things. First, Jesus had not yet passed, so the New Testament had not been instituted yet. The thief was, therefore, still under the old law. Secondly, we are assuming that he hadn't been baptized. We aren't given that information one way or another.

On another note, I've got to give y'all props for the discussion on this subject. It has been civil, informative, and downright polite, really. There's been a level of respect displayed here that helps remind me that manners still exist, even in the face of such an emotional topic. Nice work, fellas.

 

[Xusuromohses]

We non-religious can be a very easy people to get along with. We typically just want religion out of politics, and science to lead the way.

Science was actually created by Christians. And the two have much more in common than you'd probably ever want to admit or know.

 

[Xusuromohses]

Politics are going to be affected by a worldview (which is the basis for a religion), one way or the other. Seems the worldview/religion you want is an atheist one. It's literally impossible for this not to happen. And if it ever fully does happen, you will wish it never had.

The government we live under was influenced by a Christian culture and society. Everything about it. Yes, there is separation of church and state, but that was not granted for the reasons you think - rather it was for the government and church to be totally different entities. The founding fathers never fathomed that Christianity would ever be tossed to the side like it has been today. So it's no wonder the non-Christian sector of the population are now starting to question our entire government structure. They don't even know the origins of morality, but less democracy. Crazy stuff, and so easy to spot the hypocrisy from that group.

Funny how the atheist side wants separation of church and state, but they don't realize that church and state are more merged now than they've ever been before....the state has actually taken over one of the biggest functions of the church - helping the poor. Churches are now simply functioning as community, worship and mission centers.

Right will be wrong and wrong will be right.

 

[Xusuromohses]

If you have kids that is what is most important.

No, it's really not. And seeing what you posted here:

One loses their faith in a God that would allow such atrocities to happen. We were isolated from the real outcome of global war because it never made it to our shores outside Pearl Harbor and even then most Americans couldn't relate. That's why religion had maintained its stronghold here. The general population didn't lose faith.

....it's pretty obvious that you aren't a believer in God at all. Yet you want to use the youth groups at the church for some reason? Why? Are they good for your children? Why? I mean it's all hocus pocus right?

 

[Xusuromohses]

Europe turned their back on God long before WWII.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

Please, please tell me who told you that.

Science was actually created by Christians.

I'm genuinely interested who is putting that out there. Unless you're kidding.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

Are you of the belief that non religious are incapable of morality?

Because if so, you are wrong.

Also, you completely failed to even give one negative impact of the separation of church and state, or the removal of religion from politics and government. Please elaborate on that for me.

 

[UpTheMiddlex3Punt]

Do you know why we practice Christianity?

Because we're not very good at it

(You can use that one in a sermon, preacher_dawg)

 

[T-TownDawgg]

Science was actually created by Christians. And the two have much more in common than you'd probably ever want to admit or know.

So the Babylonians, Egyptians, and Romans all built their civilizations with miraculous visions of what science will be in the First Century. Way more insightful than I ever gave them credit for...

 

[Prediction? Pain.]

I have read his book and its pretty good, same goes for C.S. Lewis. I feel both gloss over some difficult problems at times. (Exclusivity for Strobel, free will and good and evil for Lewis.) I recommend Kierkegaard for anyone who is interested in good Christian writing. "Fear and Trembling" is a great book where he plays psychologist for Abraham and talks about how God can suspend ethical boundaries for his purposes.

You're a more patient man than I, Jung. I've been revisiting Kierkegaard's works recently for the first time since grad school -- specifically "The Sickness Unto Death," "Attack Upon Christendom," and, most recently, "Philosophical Fragments" and "Johannes Climacus" -- and have had difficulty finishing any of them. Putting aside that some of his more abstruse prose is straining my ever-shrinking attention span, I just find it too much of a downer, especially if I'm looking for something even quasi-inspirational. Don't get me wrong, I dig some of his stuff and see it as ahead of its time in many ways. Without him, a lot of 20th century theologians wouldn't have been able to do the work that they did. It's just not my bag these days, and wouldn't be among the top of my (surely dated by now) list of recommended readings for someone looking for interesting but at least semi-accessible modern-ish Christian theology. Instead, I'd advise starting out with a heavy-hitter's book of sermons rather than one of dogmatics, maybe by Paul Tillich or Reinhold Niebuhr or Karl Barth, and then moving on from there more more in-depth reading. (The Shaking of the Foundations or The New Being by Tillich, and Beyond Tragedy by Niebuhr come to mind.)

And speaking of Tillich, if anyone's interested in a more comprehensive look at the development of Christian theology over the centuries, I recommend Tillich's A History of Christian Thought. It's not a walk in the park, but it's relatively accessible if you've got a vague background in western history or Christian theology. (Let me put it to you this way -- I got so bored reading Jack Kerouac's The Town and the City a while back that I picked up the Tillich's History of Christian Thought instead and never looked back. (It occurs to me now that perhaps that's more of an indictment of Kerouac's book than a glowing appraisal of Tillich's . . . .))

 

[Xusuromohses]

Yes, I am of that belief, over time. Obviously you have a learned knowledge of morality now (though you apparently don't know where it came from).

I never said separation of church and state was bad. What's bad is when Christian values are not the ones influencing governmental affairs.

 

[Xusuromohses]

I'm genuinely interested who is putting that out there. Unless you're kidding.

Read many books on the subject.

 

[Hump4Hoops]

Please tell me which books.