Not responding to anyone in particular. But this thread begs the question. How satisfied are you with the results of the last few seasons? Final 4? I think most would be content. Elite 8? Probably half, which is probably fair. Round of 32? Give me a break. This is Kentucky. Should never be in the equation.
Would A Final Four Change Your Perception
- Thread starter BlueWorldOrder74
- Start date
I don't really look at it in those terms but rather the question of "are we one of the teams that are the favorites to win a title"
I would figure that would including making a final four or even an elite eight.
Usually at the end of the season you could pretty much pick seven or eight teams that are going to win the title. What I expect from UK is to be in that conversation year in and year out.
As far as the last few years, 16 and 18 we weren't in that conversation.
But I do think 17 and 19 we were there. So the results of an elite eight while upsetting I could take.
In a one and done tournament, the best team doesn't always win. To have the best chance at winning titles, you want to be in that conversation as many years as possible.
what metrics are you using to find out? We can go another 5 years of this kind of recruiting and people will point to them being the top 2 or 3 classes every year.
Not anything in general. But it's been obviously to most we haven't seen a Wall/Cousins/Davis/Towns etc type player in awhile.
The problem tho is I think those type of players are diminishing. Especially in the future where guys will jump directly to the G league.
The talent gap is getting smaller. So while we are still rated highly in recruiting, we aren't getting the same differential we were getting in the early years.
Which some will point to as evidence that things need to change and it's a valid point. But I guess we'll find out.
You ain’t getting Terrance Jones type players back for a second year and while we had a couple seniors in 2017, they weren’t the caliber Miller was.
Also, the biggest ace in the hole was Anthony Davis. Haven't had one of thise since 2012 and really, there's only been one transcendent player since AD and he catfished the hell out of Cal, then deep dicked us in November of 2018 (34 point loss).
Cal is going to go with the transfer portal for help, but it's not the same as having a guy in your system for 3+ years.
You’re kidding with this right? Since when is "20+ games" a benchmark? You do realize you're talking about Memphis right? The school that was playing in Conference USA. 20+ games simply can't be the crutch of your argument. Again, we're comparing what Cal accomplished at UK vs his previous 2 college coaching stops to show that UK is the needle, not the coach.
Also, you say he "won the NIT" you do realize that means he didn't qualify for the NCAAT right? I mean, is that supposed to be impressive?
Bottom line is, Cal accomplished far more in 5 years at UK than he did at UMass and Memphis combined and you would look like a fool trying to debate me on that.
It proves my point, UK gives coaches an advantage. Cal chooses to use those advantages to feed the NBA, I want a coach that uses those advantages to win games for UK.
I give Cal credit at UMass, not many folks thought him and camby and co would make a deep run. It's amazing really to think about it.
Then again, it was UK that beat them that year in the tourney.
Then again, it was UK that beat them that year in the tourney.
Lol, it a benchmark for not really struggling as you put it. I think most programs around the country are very happy to to win that many games. I prefer 30 win seasons, which he also did at both schools multiple times. I'm sure you think that is just average though!
When you take a team from no tournament invites at all to winning the second biggest tournament in 2 years, yea, I would say that is pretty impressive.
In his last 4 years at Memphis, they went E8, E8, Runner-up and sw 16. All ay least 33 win seasons. In his last 5 yeara at Umass it was SW16, 2nd rd, 2nd rd, E8, F4. Both were pretty solid records. So it looks like he was pretty successful without ever stepping foot at UK. He sure as hell had a much better record than what is available to replace him currently.
Here, Cal went: UKE8, F4, Championship, NIT, Runner-up, F4, 2nd RD, E8, SW16, E8. Aside from finally getting a Championship, his overall records have been very consistent throughout the 3 schools.
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Just let me know if you want to debate whether UK gives coaches an advantage or not. That was my point.
Did Tubby, Pitino or Cal ever win a title prior to coming to UK? Did any of them go to 4 final fours at any of their previous stops? Did any of them ever have the #1 or 2 recruiting class in 10 consecutive years at any point in their careers prior to coming to UK?
But hey, just let me know if you want to keep debating.
Just to be fair, when Cal was at other programs those seasons didn’t consist of teams playing terrible basketball 3/4 of the season waiting on freshman to develop. That’s hard on any fan base.. and with the BBN it makes it even tougher. Lol It’s always good to see players improve a lot, but it’s tough to watch. Duke should never beat us by 34 points. That’s ridiculous.
Sure, let's debate it. What was the advantage for Sutton, BCG, Smith (post Pitino leftovers)?
Lol, Yea, Cal went to 2, at 2 different schools. Pitino had already been to one as well. Tubby's advantage was getting Pitino leftovers for a year. Tubby was literally hired because he was the best we could get to take the job. Doesn't sounds like too many other coaches saw the advantages then. What about in 2007? Didn't appear these advantages helped then either.
Lol, I thought recruiting rankings didn't matter? Last I heard, everyone wanted long term, 4 year players that didn't care about rankings and getting drafted. Also, aside from Cal, who had these consecutive streaks of top recruitments while at UK? So, since you can't name any, does that mean it was a Cal advantage or UK advantage?
What did Tubby ever accomplish before he came to UK? Pitino leftovers or not, he still won a title and coached his *** off in that tournament to get it. He also went to 2 Elite 8's after that. Did he ever do that at Tulsa, UGA, Minnesota or TT? Nope. But.let.me guess, he won 20+ games a year at UGA 4 times (eyeroll).
Yup, Pitino got to a FF at Providence and he had some success at Louisville, but Louisville is no Texas Tech, they're a second tier program that played in the Big East and the ACC . but he could walk on water at UK.
As far as Sutton, his time was cut short, but what am I missing? What did he accomplish anywhere else?
So Cal went to two total final fours prior to coming to UK, he dusted those accomplishments his first 5 years here. How are you even trying to debate this? It aint close.
Right! He accomplished nothing really. That is my point! He didn't deserve the job. However, he was the best we could get to take it. All these UK advantages evidently didn't help land a better coach. I could have coached that team and won a title. All he did was hand them the ball and tell them to do what Pitino taught them.
2 whole elite 8's? Wow!
Lol, winning 20 games is above average. It definitely doesn't indicate struggles as you stated. I am sorry me calling out your ignorance on the matter has blistered your *** so bad, but it is a fact that most programs in the country would consider a 20+ win season as good. Definitely better than struggling.
Sutton had some good teams, but ultimately accomplished little. That is my point..if UK has all these advantages, why was he the best we could get? Why was Tubby? BCG?
Cal would have done the same at Memphis. He was literally doing it there before here. He definitely wasn't struggling before he came here as you suggested.
Which players on those 5 teams came to UK for the program and tradition and which came for Cal? You literally just proved Cal is the advantage now. No recruits today give a **** about the 50's - 90's UK tradition. They don't really care much about the traditions anywhere.
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See, you’re changing the subject. It was never about 20 wins and what coach UK could have landed back.in the drummer of 97 and for the record, no, you most certainly could not have coached that 98 team to a title. We were scolding hot going into March and Tubby adjusted and took away what the opponents were doing. UK was behind at halftime in several games, sometimes by a lot and he made the changes that needed to be made. Pitino.lost in 97 with more talent.
However, that doesn’t matter. Tubby had nothing on his resume before coming to UK and afyer he left, his highlights are his accomplishments at UK.
Cal coached UMass from 1988 to 1996. 1 final four. He coached Memphis from 2000 to 2009. 1 final four. He got four final fours and a title at UK in his first 6 years. Do you not see the difference?
Pitino doesn’t even land the celtics job if he doesn't come to UK and build his brand and he doesn't get the Louisville job either. UK made him, it wasn't the other way around.
I am not changing the subject. I mentioned 20 wins as reference that neither coach was struggling in their pre UK jobs as you claimed. You have been the one bringing up 20 wins since.
You can believe Tubby did more than that if you want, if he was so good and had all these UK advantages, surely he could have at least made another final 4.
He never deserved the job here. Which is why I am curious why we couldn't get someone better if we have all theae advantages you mentioned?
TUBBY'S accomplishment was winning a NC with someone else's team and never coming close with his own.
The difference was Cal was recruiting the best players his last few years at Memphis and carried it with him here. When he started recruiting that well at Umass he went to the NBA. With all these advantages you claim we have now, Cal sure was outperforming us annually a little ole Memphis. Sure seems odd if what you claim about UK is true.
Lol, Pitino was one of the hottest coaches in the country at Providence. He almost turned us down and had to be talked into taking the job. He would have been great no matter where he went.
Since you ignored it, I will ask again. Which players on those 5 teams came to UK for the program and tradition and which came for Cal?
You either aren't very old or have a really bad memory.
I don’t know why some of you act so surprised. Like it’s just now become clear Cal can’t coach a lick. He makes such a big deal about all the players from uk that are in the nba, but he should be embarrassed that there’s so many had he’s won it all once. Cal is a fraud, always has been and now that Wes is gone he’s being exposed
OMG, I don't give a f*ck who deserved the job or whether 20 wins is a good measurung stick.
Here's the bottom line. Did Sutton, Pirino, Tubby and Cal have better records, accomplishments and accolades at UK than at any other point in their coaching careers?
There, I made it as simple as I could for you. Now I'm racking out. 6am is coming fast.
Not really. What were Sutton's accolades and accomplishments and records here? Aside from the championship, Cal and Pitino already had the same records and accolades at smaller schools. Pitino went on to accomplish the same 3 final fours and a championship at another school.
On your list, Tubby is the one who really benefited. Without inheriting that team, he never gets a championship or F4. He, nor UK for that matter, really ever benefited again from these "advantages."
You left BCG off entirely. What were the advantages for him?
I'll ask a third time since you seem afraid of answering. Which players on those first 5 Cal teams came to UK for the program and tradition and which came for Cal?
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FF is still losing. I want some championships. Why celebrate coming up short?
You have already “invested“ your precious time trying to convince me that Cal needs to go. While I disagree with your position I am open to being persuaded that you can, as you have unequivocally stated, find a coach to replace him. You can’t and won’t do it leaving UK without a coach. I fail to see how this is a rational response to your fervent desire to replace Coach Cal but I acknowledge this is your response. After asking you 5 times which coach you would name to replace Coach Cal, who would equal or exceed his performance, I‘m done asking. Have a great day.
It's the same as "he sucks the past 5 years" , "he makes these kids leave". Fact of the matter is, we have a large portion of our fan base that's ignorant and will make things up to fit their agenda.
Not once did he support BLM. Of course he will let his players do as they wish . They're 18 years old. It would be suicide for him to stand against it
Who's system does? Blue bloods are the only comparison . Nobody.
If a kid wants to make money he's gonna go. Ready or not. Ask Duke how they feel the past 5 seasons. Same boat
I don’t always agree with Coach Cal either. None of us is above criticism. I’m simply asking those who want Cal gone, which many have called for on this board, to make the case, in light of Coach Cal’s performance and the performance of the other top coaches during Cal’s UK tenure, to make the case for replacing Cal with the coach they believe would equal or exceed what Cal has done at UK. This is the seminal question that must be answered unless those who advance the position that Cal has to go don’t care whether Cal’s replacement does as well as Cal has done.
UK has always had unlimited resources, a blue blood pedigree, 20,000 fans at every game, etc that you mentioned. This is a given for any coach at Kentucky but Billy Gillespie couldn’t succeed. For many UK fans Tubby Smith couldn’t “ succeed” after he won the 1998 title “with Pitino’s players”. Joe Hall couldn’t “succeed“ to the fans level of expectations. Each of them had all the resources you mentioned.
I can live with the frustrations of seeing UK struggle during the early part of the year as long as the team gets better and can seriously compete for the national title by the end of the year. Under Cal, UK has been in position every year but one to legitimately contend for a national championship. This could not be said during the coaching tenure of Billy Gillespie, nor the majority of Tubby Smith‘s, Eddie Sutton’s or Joe Hall’s coaching tenures.
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I would love it as it proves again that Cal can actually coach, yes we still have problems but I hope he can find a fix for them as well. He can’t force fringe NBA guys to stay. The ones we have had all bail.
For me it would change. For one, it would prove Cal can get to a Final Four in the post-shoe company scandal era, which as of yet he hasn't done.
Can't be the gold standard if we don't part ways with some of our gold. Cal can't be above scenarios where he has a chance to hire someone like Cade's brother and doesn't do it. We saw how easily they created a job for Jai. Could have easily done that for Canen Cunningham.
Hiring Cade's brother would have been pandering and idiotic. That would be sending the message that we are desperate enough to be strong-armed by the demands of recruits. What would stop Clarke, Boston, Sarr and so on from demanding that their family members be hired too? That would just open up the door for a lot of headaches.
One of the dumbest things I've ever read. When he took over we had just had Billy G. Hadn't been to a final four in 14 years. You just hate thy guy.
You asked where the advantage was for BCG, well, the guy was here for 2 years and got stuck on the bottle and nailing coeds. He didn't use the advantages.Not really. What were Sutton's accolades and accomplishments and records here? Aside from the championship, Cal and Pitino already had the same records and accolades at smaller schools. Pitino went on to accomplish the same 3 final fours and a championship at another school.
On your list, Tubby is the one who really benefited. Without inheriting that team, he never gets a championship or F4. He, nor UK for that matter, really ever benefited from these "advantages" after that year.
You left BCG off entirely. What were the advantages for him?
I'll ask a third time since you seem afraid of answering. Which players on those first 5 Cal teams came to UK for the program and tradition and which came for Cal?
Tubby Smith never went to an NIT here, won a title and went to two E8's. No, it's not that great of a record, but it's better than what he accomplished anywhere else.
Yeah, Pitino had a FF at Providence and had 2 more stripped at UL. They were stripped for a reason. UofL cheated and Pitino never went on anything close to a run like what he went on at UK between 92 and 97. It's not debatable.
Sutton never had any great success anywhere, but he was here in the 80's. There was no social media, games were rarely on tv and Sutton got his balls chopped off by the NCAA before he ever accomplished anything. The advantages weren't as a back then as they are now, it only takes a little common sense to see this.
I don’t even see how you think this is even a debate, especially as far as Cal is concerned. The only thing that would be debatable with Cal is the second half of his time here at UK. If you compare that (2016 through 2021) to his UMass or Memphis accomplishments, well, then you would have a point, but that just means this whole thing backfired on you. We both know that goes against your whole "Cal can do no wrong" schtick. The difference between Cal 2009 through 2015 and Cal 2016 through 2021 is night and day.
Now, how much further down this road do you want to travel? Either way, you lose.
Cal used the advantages UK gave him to win and win big from 09 to 15, his numbers in those 6 seasons more than double what he did at any point in his career at any other stop. You can combine his UMass and Memphis accomplishments and they STILL can't compete with his first 6 years at UK. Now, he's choosing to use UK to pad his draft pick numbers. He's not dominating like he did from 09-15, but his draft pick amounts are very close and he's satisfied with that. so he's using UK to screw UK. How awesome of him.
Why do you think Cal hired Jai Lucas? Isn't that very close to the same thing? It was done for recruiting and UK immediately stole a recruit from Texas.
I'll admit that hiring Cade's brother is a bad look, but they didn't have to make it public knowledge. Heck, Duke hid Zion's house pretty well. It just looks like a bad rumor right now.
Lol, BCG sucked. It was a bad hire because we couldn't get better at the time. If we had/have all these alleged advantages, wouldn't every coach want to be here?
Tubby's teams were awful towards the end. The only thing that kept him from an NIT the last 2 years was name recognition. That was it. As stated, he benefited more from this job than anyone. However, UK sure didn't benefit much.
They were stripped, but it doesn't change the fact they still won them. Hiring ****** hookers doesn't give the team an advantage on the court or in the game. That was all Pitino and his coaching abilities. Considering he went to back to back final fours and won one, I would say that was pretty on par with his UK record. He grabbed an extra F4 at each.
Lol, Sutton had already been to a F4 and been named AP coach of the year before coming to UK. You really don't know much about UK basketball history.
Cal can and has done plenty wrong. 2015 comes to mind the quickest. However, it doesn't negate the fact he is the perfect man for the job. Then and now! Cal is the advantage for UK currently. Without him, there isn't one.
Other than inheriting Pitino leftovers, what was Tubby's advantage? What was BCG's advantage? Sutton's advantage? Hell, look at what Pitino inherited. I don't recall him having many advantages when he rebuilt the program. That was hard work and dedication. Cal had the advantage of being a mater recruiter, which he carried over here. That wasn't a UK thing. Just look at how bad recruiting was before he came here.
You literally just proved none of those guys come to UK without Cal here. So what was the UK benefit? Again, I'll ask since you fear answering, what players in Cal's tenute came to UK for our history and "advantages" and not because of Cal? You won't answer because it shatters your entire premise.
Jai Lucas is one of the best recruiters in the country. He has a ton of long-term benefits and great player relations. It wasn't done for the benefit of 1 player for 1 year.
If you pander to this level to the players/recruits, where does it end? What do you say when Clarke, Boston, Sarr, Jackson and others start making the same demands?
OMG, thank you so much! Those were truly kind words. I can't take all the credit though - my father instilled in me much of what I know today. He was a great mentor and father.
Waste of time. Same old people camp out here when UK struggles to go after Cal and when we win they say "Meh, I could have won with that talent" or they say "I was out of pocket and missed the game". [laughing] They move the goalposts and don't deserve any time. Best to pick your spots as to when to spend much time on this board as the roaches will flee the 80+% of the time when we win.
I enjoy watching them squirm and deflect.
@kyjeff1 has stated multiple times UK just has all these elite advantages that instantly make coaches better at UK. However, of our last 5 coaches, Pitino is the only one they didn't want to fire at some point. Hell, most people wanted Hall out as well, so that would be 6. One would think if we really had all these advantages, we wouldn't have wanted to can or force retirement on all of our coaches.
He then went on to claim Cal only reached his level of success here because of the UK advantages, to which I asked how was he able to reach final fours and a championship game at 2 other mid major schools previously? Then I followed-up asking which players he thought would have still come to UK without Cal here. I have asked it 4 times now to not a single attempt at an answer. So is it really UK or Cal that is currently the benefit here?
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