If you’re going off of last night then I feel for you. If Cason Wallace isn’t getting 30+ mpg (at the expense of wheeler) at point guard then Cal will have choked another season away. It’s just a fact.
Where's the drop-off?
- Thread starter revcort
- Start date
No, right now its just your opinion. I look for a 20/20 split.
No. If that’s the case, we will get beat by a lesser opponent (once again) who also decides to make us play 4 against 5.
I think you need to look up what the word "fact" means.
Why do you blame Wheeler for our 8 losses when he was the best guard we had in those games? Blame TyTy, Mintz & Grady as they were garbage in those games.
See: keion brooks, wheeler 2021, Hagans, Harrisons etc etc etc.
point TyTy beats St. Peters. Facts
addition by subtraction
point TyTy beats St. Peters. Facts
addition by subtraction
Yeah because Cal likes to narrow it down to 7 or 8 guys. This team “could” see 9 or 10 get sig mins esp if Ugonna plays.
Again, TyTy, Mintz & Grady were atrocious against St. Peter's (way worse than Wheeler) and as someone has posted on here before, the 3 sucked in the other 7 losses as well and Wheeler had the best stats by far in the losses.
And are you seriously trashing the Twins when they took us to the national title game and then the Final Four? You are a joke, that is the fact.
Wheeler at point guard has a lot to do with why they were so terrible as well. Learn basketball. And I wasn’t trashing the twins at all, rather trashing Cal’s rotations, substitution patterns, and loyalness to a fault.
No problem, but only time tells if we have this same swagger after a SEC schedule and Cal dredding the SEC Tournament. We're not playing quality teams here no matter what Cal tells you.
The second 5 need minutes..... the team needs the second 5 to have minutes.... weird, not weird, whatever. Call it what ya want but a strong healthy 10 man roster is not a detriment.
This is right. Wheeler isn't the reason UK lost those 8 games, nor was he the reason we lost to St Peter's. In that St Peter's game, Wheeler got guys open shots all day- they just couldn't make them. We shot 23% from 3 in that game.
I hope Wheeler shuts some of the haters up around here this season. The guy has led all major conference guards in assists for 2 consecutive seasons. What does he need to do to prove he's not a weak link? Last season, when he went out of the game, the offense stagnated. That's just a fact. His issues are easy to find and pick on- his size, his shooting, and his propensity to get in too deep and turn it over.
But his strengths are elite strengths- his quickness is elite. His court vision is elite. His playmaking is elite. His ability to get to the goal and finish is elite.
So what is the result? Truth is, the thing that makes him elite- his quickness, his driving ability, and his playmaking can sometimes get him in trouble. So, what do you do? Do you handcuff him and tell him to stop driving and stop trying to make plays or do you let him do his thing knowing that he will make great plays much more often than he will turn it over? You go with option B.
What is the bottom line? Clearly, Wheeler's positives outweigh his negatives. His assists outweigh his turnovers by over 2 to 1. By the way, for those who actually know basketball, that is the measure of a great point guard. Wheeler is a great point guard. Period.
I think the Dominicans were descent not sure about the others.
UK just blitz the DR, we looked like a Big Blue Machine in early Aug!
According to Calipari it can be actually. Depends on whether or not you’ve got guys taking minutes away from others who are a lot better.
Like I said just sub accordingly. If that’s 10 then whatever. But you don’t just throw a guy minutes because he’s “good enough” and someone likes the “idea” of a 10 man platooning roster. It seems some are looking for ways to give guys minutes instead of playing the right guys.
Completely agree. Oscar is irreplaceable, but then the next 7 are all pretty interchangeable and exciting in different ways. Thiero, Ware and Kingsley are all intriguing as well.
This team reminds me of a mid-90s Pitino team like 95, with guys like Walker, Pope, and Epps coming off the bench, but essentially were just as good as the starters, while guys like Padgett and Edwards had to bide their time. Or 97 where guys were similarly just as good as the starters Epps/Turner, Magloire/Mohammed, Padgett/Prickett.
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No, they were fine when healthy. Injuries derailed that team more than anything last year. If Wheeler was really the issue, we would not have dominated UNC & KU with him. TyTy (who you think could have ran the point as a gimp against St. Peter's lol), Grady and Wheeler were not near 100% for that game. It is still 100% inexcusable UK lost the game, and I think if anything, we should target Toppin not playing in the 2nd half/OT more than anything else. With that team's situation, even if we win the St. Peter's game we were toast against Murray IMO.
Cal's sub patterns were fine against Wisconsin, it was the lack of play calling down the stretch and the stall ball that doomed the team. The myth of NBA Booker & Sophomore Ulis coming in and throwing lobs and draining 3's to hold off Wisconsin when in reality they were two freshmen that could not guard air in that game. Calipari's "gameplan" would not have allowed them anymore success. I am with you on blaming Cal for that game. I apologize to the OP for this thread getting off the rails.
Right now we have 10 players who could start for most Division 1 teams. To get to an Eight man rotation which two of these sits (Theiro, Ware, Fredricks) we know Cal likes Ware as Oscar replacement. The only other thing to do is ten minutes of B team platoon each game (five minutes each half)
then Wheeler would also be the reason when they played great, they played great
if you know basketball then you know that you can not have it both ways
where's the dropoff? Good question. Maybe there isn't much of a dropoff at all. Maybe the question is : what are the weaknesses with the individuals and lineups we have out there at the time?
Wheeler's size concerns me, much like his speed should concern opponents. If he can consistently hit outside shots, not force the ball and make bad decisions, trying to do things he doesn't need to be attempting to do, then I think we're in for a special season. I kinda feel about Wheeler like I did about Teague on the 12' team. He hit enough outside shots and managed the team, doing everything well enough to be an integral part and a team leader to lead us to that title. Teams are going to scout his weaknesses. They'll try to take away that left driving side from him. They scouted him well enough that St. Peters beat us in the tournament.
Will Cal make the necessary adjustments in game? Or will his own stubbornness lead to another disappointment?
thats always in my mind. Im not going to belabor the point.
Collins looks like he has improved his all around game. Love his defensive hops. But will the offense see a dropoff when he's in there? I dont know. I like the fact that at least defensively, he - and the rest of the team - look to be a lockdown type team ... and we all know know defense will win games when the offense struggles. There will be times we will need them to be better defensively because they're having a bad night shooting.
Perimeter shot making seems to still be a question for me, at least. Until we can definitively say and feel otherwise, that'll be the main knock.
Will the freshmen either on their own or collectively together - when they're on the floor at the same time - will they make typical freshman mistakes tat costs us possessions and ultimately a game or two? I'm loving the look they're giving, but I do think they will make more mistakes with much improved competition and when they have a matchup issue. But thats a DUH statement. I actually think they will be fine, but there's always a concern with freshmen.
Injuries - sometimes out of our control, others, I'm not so sure, but they could play a huge role for us - and it can go either way - in helping us be as great as we can be or hurting us at the worst possible time.
All in all, I figure we're looking to be in great shape. You all can add to the list of concerns and possible individual and team weaknesses that can and could be exploited by the stiff competition we will face.
But that's the saving grace in all of this. We're more experienced together this year, will have played a hellofa gauntlet to prepare us as well as possible.
We're preseason top 4. A projected 1 seed. A projected Final Four team. That should not change throughout the season provided something catastrophic doesnt happen along the way.
and if we're that good, why not take the whole cake?
Focus on one game at a time and get better than we were the last time we played is all I want to see this year, and I'm confident we can go the distance.
Great post, IL. Good to hear everyone's thoughts.
Wheeler's size concerns me, much like his speed should concern opponents. If he can consistently hit outside shots, not force the ball and make bad decisions, trying to do things he doesn't need to be attempting to do, then I think we're in for a special season. I kinda feel about Wheeler like I did about Teague on the 12' team. He hit enough outside shots and managed the team, doing everything well enough to be an integral part and a team leader to lead us to that title. Teams are going to scout his weaknesses. They'll try to take away that left driving side from him. They scouted him well enough that St. Peters beat us in the tournament.
Will Cal make the necessary adjustments in game? Or will his own stubbornness lead to another disappointment?
thats always in my mind. Im not going to belabor the point.
Collins looks like he has improved his all around game. Love his defensive hops. But will the offense see a dropoff when he's in there? I dont know. I like the fact that at least defensively, he - and the rest of the team - look to be a lockdown type team ... and we all know know defense will win games when the offense struggles. There will be times we will need them to be better defensively because they're having a bad night shooting.
Perimeter shot making seems to still be a question for me, at least. Until we can definitively say and feel otherwise, that'll be the main knock.
Will the freshmen either on their own or collectively together - when they're on the floor at the same time - will they make typical freshman mistakes tat costs us possessions and ultimately a game or two? I'm loving the look they're giving, but I do think they will make more mistakes with much improved competition and when they have a matchup issue. But thats a DUH statement. I actually think they will be fine, but there's always a concern with freshmen.
Injuries - sometimes out of our control, others, I'm not so sure, but they could play a huge role for us - and it can go either way - in helping us be as great as we can be or hurting us at the worst possible time.
All in all, I figure we're looking to be in great shape. You all can add to the list of concerns and possible individual and team weaknesses that can and could be exploited by the stiff competition we will face.
But that's the saving grace in all of this. We're more experienced together this year, will have played a hellofa gauntlet to prepare us as well as possible.
We're preseason top 4. A projected 1 seed. A projected Final Four team. That should not change throughout the season provided something catastrophic doesnt happen along the way.
and if we're that good, why not take the whole cake?
Focus on one game at a time and get better than we were the last time we played is all I want to see this year, and I'm confident we can go the distance.
Great post, IL. Good to hear everyone's thoughts.
It’s Wheeler, Wallace, Livingston, Toppin, Oscar.
CJ is a great spark off the bench, especially considering the need to limit his minutes.
I’m not sold on Reeves, but it’s very early. I think he’ll contribute, but he doesn’t feel like a starter to me.
Collins will get a lot more minutes, but I think he’ll still get pushed around a bit.
Thiero is a nice luxury to have. There will be games where he makes a difference.
CJ is a great spark off the bench, especially considering the need to limit his minutes.
I’m not sold on Reeves, but it’s very early. I think he’ll contribute, but he doesn’t feel like a starter to me.
Collins will get a lot more minutes, but I think he’ll still get pushed around a bit.
Thiero is a nice luxury to have. There will be games where he makes a difference.
Dude the other poster is a master troll baiter. In the other Wheeler thread he said that the Mexico team is the only type of team Wheeler can play well against, but we all saw the UT, KU, and UNC games last season to name a few where he played well and the team dominated.
There's a great joke [that Mark Twain repeated], "Wagner's music is better than it sounds."
Here is my take on the drop off (and the 2nd team was a glorified YMCA team to be fair....they sucked)
Top notch performers come legit competition
- Oscar (I still think he drops off a bit after amazing year last season)
- Cason Wallace (kid can D up, really good floor presence and capable shooter)
- Toppin (Huge confidence lift, does all the little things, amazing defenender, rebounds well, can handle at the PF....still not sold he can shoot 35% from 3 yet)
Notch below top performers:
- Reeves (Hard call...he might belong in top group. His handle is a bit loose for my liking as a SG. But if he can shoot this well....he for sure moves to top group)
- Collins (His shot blocking presence off the ball is eye opening.....just long and springy kid. I like his face up game and rim attacker and he can make FT. I just question how he'll hold up vs. physical teams. I think he might wilt a good bit as he's still extremely thin for a PF)
- Livingston (GIven he's hit some 3's....he sticks here. He's good on the glass
Next
-Wheeler...I just don't see an above average PG. First...he's still has too much bad weight. Really dissapointed he didn't drop 10 lbs. He's still bricking up jumpers all over the place. He does push pace and is a very willing passer...but it's nuts to play him over 20 mpg. Wallace is a very solid at point and Reeves is a good ball handler at the SG, Livingston might be fine as playmaker from the SF and Toppin in a pinch can start offense from the PF. We don't need him doing this crap again for 30+ mpg per game. This will ultimately determine our season from very good to pretty good and how Cal handles it.
- Frederick...he's a solid SG. Not great handle. Shot isn't dialed in yet...but I can see him being fine in the end.
- Ware....going to be a very good back up at the Center. Aggressive kid and knows where to be on defense. Still nothing on offense that teams have to respect.
I don't know what to do with Theiro....He is pretty good in open court. At times, he can get stuck on half court moments...but he's not a scrub like I imagined him to do.
Top notch performers come legit competition
- Oscar (I still think he drops off a bit after amazing year last season)
- Cason Wallace (kid can D up, really good floor presence and capable shooter)
- Toppin (Huge confidence lift, does all the little things, amazing defenender, rebounds well, can handle at the PF....still not sold he can shoot 35% from 3 yet)
Notch below top performers:
- Reeves (Hard call...he might belong in top group. His handle is a bit loose for my liking as a SG. But if he can shoot this well....he for sure moves to top group)
- Collins (His shot blocking presence off the ball is eye opening.....just long and springy kid. I like his face up game and rim attacker and he can make FT. I just question how he'll hold up vs. physical teams. I think he might wilt a good bit as he's still extremely thin for a PF)
- Livingston (GIven he's hit some 3's....he sticks here. He's good on the glass
Next
-Wheeler...I just don't see an above average PG. First...he's still has too much bad weight. Really dissapointed he didn't drop 10 lbs. He's still bricking up jumpers all over the place. He does push pace and is a very willing passer...but it's nuts to play him over 20 mpg. Wallace is a very solid at point and Reeves is a good ball handler at the SG, Livingston might be fine as playmaker from the SF and Toppin in a pinch can start offense from the PF. We don't need him doing this crap again for 30+ mpg per game. This will ultimately determine our season from very good to pretty good and how Cal handles it.
- Frederick...he's a solid SG. Not great handle. Shot isn't dialed in yet...but I can see him being fine in the end.
- Ware....going to be a very good back up at the Center. Aggressive kid and knows where to be on defense. Still nothing on offense that teams have to respect.
I don't know what to do with Theiro....He is pretty good in open court. At times, he can get stuck on half court moments...but he's not a scrub like I imagined him to do.
I think you are correct- I hope some of them can make outside shots- great athletes do not necessarily make the best basketball players and we have some great athletes - only weakness could be outside shooting- we will see
His shooting should be the only thing that worries you. But he won’t need to shoot much. Show me a better pg in transition. He makes this team go. Wheeler is solid
We only shot 15 threes against St. Peter’s (not sure about all these open shots he got people?) and Wheeler had 6 turnovers. He was a big part of why we lost that game.
Hope he’s either better in the halfcourt this year or on the bench in crunch time of tight games.
He was our 2nd leading scorer in the game with 11 points, which he got on 4-8 shooting. He did have 6 turnovers. He also had 6 assists. Even with the turnovers, he was the 2nd most efficient player on the floor for UK, behind Oscar. If you want a scapegoat, and you and many others clearly do, look no further than our wing tandem of Kellan Grady and TyTy Washington. Those 2 combined to go 3-19 from the floor. Grady made only 1-7 from 3pt range, so he had some open looks. He just wasn't making them. I don't get the hate, I really don't. Wheeler was the best point guard in the SEC last season and the year before. He has led the league in assists for 2 straight years. He's also led ALL major conference players in assists in those 2 seasons. He is an excellent point guard and he is NOT the reason we lost that game.
The reason the season fell apart was the lack of scoring from TyTy and Grady. Both players were scoring at will earlier in the year, but down the stretch they wilted. We already knew TyTy's issues began with the injury in the Auburn game. And now we know that Grady was battling plantar faciitis.
Respectfully, I don’t think your opinion of Wheeler as the best PG in the SEC is accurate.
I point out his 6 turnovers, that we were only able to get off 15 threes (12 in regulation). I don’t even mention his 2 for 5 on free throws including clanking 2 in a row in OT.
You accuse me of looking for a scapegoat. Maybe I’m just calling it like I see it?
Wheeler has never played winning basketball in his life. He has talent, but empty stats don’t impress me when your team is trying to win Titles.
I hope he takes the next step this season. If he doesn’t, I hope he’s planted firmly on the bench when the game matters.
But if you want to keep taking shots at me, go for it.
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To further this point, after the platoon system was scrapped we damn near lost at home to Ole Miss and @A&M in our first two SEC games. Both games went into overtime. The edge was lost.
His decision making needs improvement. He over penetrates at times which leads to turnovers because he has nowhere to go with ball.
Sure, call it like you see it, Aike. I have no problem with that. You're just wrong in this case. The NUMBERS, which don't lie, bear that out. He has led the SEC in assists for 2 straight years. Your preferred narrative is just wrong. Maybe you should rewatch that St Peter's game without your bias on. Wheeler did all he could do in that game. When other guys couldn't hit a shot, he made 50% of his. As for missing those free throws, sure, that's easy to point to, but the game never should have been in overtime. Oscar missed free throws in OT also, if memory serves.
I really don't care to blame any individual player for that loss. I have no interest in dogging anyone and wouldn't mention Grady and TyTy at all, but you people who are determined the entire game should be laid at the feet of Wheeler have driven me to it. As I said above, he shot 50%, scored 11, and had 6 assists. Brooks went 2-7, Washington went 2-10, and Grady went 1-9. Now, please spin those abysmal numbers and tell me it was Wheeler's fault.
Wheeler can be frustrating sometimes. High impact one game, then laying eggs the next.
Other than Oscar name me a player on last year's team or this years coming team you won't be able to say the same thing about.
The key will be calipari playing the hot combinations around Oscar in the close games.
And on the st Peter's game everyone was to blame other than Oscar and toppin bit Wheeler being the Blamed guy is lame as hell. As op mentioned the other guards were far worse in that game and the other 7 losses.
People point to the 6 turnovers but the lack of any alpha dogs to demand the rock consistently doomed uk in that game. You don't want Wheeler being the go to guy in those games trying to score. He is was however the only reason we got the 6 point lead though that uk sadly choked away.
Didn’t realize I was in the presence of greatness.
For the record, we were discussing Wheeler. I don’t remember blaming Wheeler for everything to the exclusion of all others.
Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double, so was he a better point guard than Steph Curry? Counting stats can and do lie. Wheeler leading the SEC in assists means little to nothing in the scheme of things. How good was his UGA team when he led the league in assists?
If you want to keep harping on the St. Peter’s game, go back and watch Wheeler from the time we were up 6 late. You know, winning time.
I don’t question his ability to put up numbers in a run and gun game and help us stretch leads. And that’s a valuable skill. I don’t trust him in crunch time of a Coach Cal rock fight. I don’t think I’m wrong about that, but I hope he gets better.