Who cares about 3 turnovers a game when you have 7 assists. I’ll take 4 more assists than turnovers any day. In fact only one other pg in the Cal era has topped that . And that was Ulis
Where's the drop-off?
- Thread starter revcort
- Start date
I honestly never understood why people complained about 4 more assists than turnovers. That is at a very minimum 8 plus more points than he’s giving up. Probably more since not all turnovers lead to points. And some assists lead to 3s. Consider all of that before complaining about turnovers .
They say UK has some of the most knowledgable basketball fans in the country. I just wish more of them would get on Rafters!
Wheeler averaged 3.0 turnovers per game last year. In their last years playing college ball, John Stockton averaged 3.3, Jason Kidd averaged 4.3, and Steve Nash averaged 3.6. Wheeler's A/T ratio was also better than any of theirs.
Wheeler has his flaws, but turnovers really aren't one of them. A lot of his turnovers are a result of his aggressiveness, and I think his aggressiveness is a good thing.
3 turnovers against bad comp. Wheeler is my concern until he isn't. Still can't shoot either.
This team has a lot of potential. Wheeler can be a big part of that if he gets more under control and makes better decisions.
His bad shots are usually turnovers too. PG is too critical. He penetrates sometimes without a play to make, throws it up or throws it away.
He did this just the other night and threw it away. Too many good options on offense for him to do that.
I know they have played inferior competition but what I have seen in these first 2 games is this team has potential to be 15+ points better than last year’s team.
Exactly! Even John Wall averaged more than 4 turnovers a game his onky year at Kentucky.
Against bad competition? That’s what he averaged on the season. In fact the 4 more assists were the best in the sec. Wake up
Says who? You sparky? Take a break dude. You're the mouse in this deal junior.
Why? These teams are very bad. Like, 0-18 in the SEC bad. That takes nothing away from the potential this UK has.....BUT, there are HS teams better than these teams....
No Wallace is our best guard he needs 35 min a game. He’s our only sure fire top ten pick. If he has a stellar year as pg he’s a top 5 draft pick imo. Cal isn’t gonna Rob the guy of that. I believe wheeler will be more of a role player this year.
Um. The DR team gave St John’s a time today. Doesn’t mean they’re world beaters but yeah, no HS team is doing that. There were some over 22 year old guys in there. Very very few HS teams would hang.
Now the Monterrey team was bad. But their pacing was a good test early.
The Canadian team we play today will be a good change. They’ve won 16 out of the last 19 CBB titles up there. They’ve had a bit of a rough start this year but they may give us a challenge for a bit.
After reading this thread and attempting to talk some sense into some folks, it's clear many are clueless about what makes a good point guard. Wheeler is the starter and will remain there for the season. Write it down. Let me repeat for those in the back- he has led the SEC in assists for 2 straight years. He has led all major conference guards in assists in those same 2 years. He is an elite point guard. His perceived weakness (getting in too deep and turning the ball over) is also part of the reason he's elite. Yes, he turns it over sometimes but he also gets in there and makes plays and drives defenses insane. And since he makes plays twice as often as he turns it over, he is an excellent point guard. That is the measure of an excellent point guard. The rest of this crap you folks are complaining about is asking for perfection. You folks need to go back and look at our point guards in the past. Some probably had fewer turnovers. And they also couldn't make the plays Wheeler makes and had less than half the number of assists he has had the last 2 seasons. Yes, more than John Wall. Yes, more than DeAaron Fox. Yes, more than Andrew Harrison. And he's done it against top competition. I'm not talking about the Mexico team. I'm talking about the SEC for 2 straight years. My head is getting bloody from beating it against this wall. I thought you folks knew basketball! Wow! Numbers don't tell the story, eh? But I'm supposed to think he sucks because you dolts on this board told me so? That's hilarious!
@Aike , your analysis of Wheeler in the St. Peter’s game is absolutely spot on. You point out the 6 turnovers (from OUR POINT GUARD) and that gets dismissed. You point out the missed free throws at the most inopportune time. One of his 6 turnovers was a chest pass that he threw at Kellen Grady’s knees from about 7 feet away, terrible pass at a terrible moment. I 1000% agree with you on everything you’re saying about Wheeler. Guy you’re debating this with can’t handle it, it’s not your fault.
Looking at drop offs. On a 1-10 scale, I would put them
Oscar 9
Livingston, Wallace, Collins, Toppin, Reeves 6.5 (I think 2-3 will be 7-7.5 by Jan)
Fredrick 6
Wheeler 5.5
Theiro 5 (could be higher)
Ware 4
And I see room for most of them to improve by January.
In comparison, (past players), Allen was a 3, Willis was a 5, healthy Tyty was a 7.5, Briscoe was a 5.5.
So not much drop off at all
Oscar 9
Livingston, Wallace, Collins, Toppin, Reeves 6.5 (I think 2-3 will be 7-7.5 by Jan)
Fredrick 6
Wheeler 5.5
Theiro 5 (could be higher)
Ware 4
And I see room for most of them to improve by January.
In comparison, (past players), Allen was a 3, Willis was a 5, healthy Tyty was a 7.5, Briscoe was a 5.5.
So not much drop off at all
Wheeler is a good/solid PG, but not elite.
Wheeler is very good when guys around him are good. But he can’t take over a game like an elite PG can, in fact when he tries to that is when he is his worst.
He is not Wall or Fox or Ulis or Knight or even SGA. He is more at the level of Teague, Briscoe, Epps. And 2 of those helped lead us to a championship, not because of how good they were, but because they played within themselves, not trying to do do much, allowing the talent around them to shine and flourish.
Who got UK up 6 in that game? I can't remember if it was tyty, Mintz or Grady that drove to the hoop and got some separation.
The difference is none of you will dare say a negative thing about the 3 I mentioned in that game even though they all played way worse. Why is that?
I just wait Aike and you to say yeah Wheeler sucked with the turnovers and the missed FTs but Grady, tyty and mintz sucked more.
I 100% agree with your assessment about the St Peter's Game. However, there's a reason Wheeler won't be like Ulis and play for bit in the NBA. That would be lack of outside shot, and questionable decision-making, he's not up to the Ulis, Wall or Bledsoe level. He does rush up the court really fast and sometimes scores a layup over the bigs and sometimes gets it blocked.So I don't want to see the ball in his hands when we absolutely need a bucket.
Well that’s where you’re wrong. I’ve been pretty critical of Tyty’s game and I definitely was that night. He was a complete non factor and got outplayed by a bunch of guys no one has heard of. Really an unbelievably bad performance from a 1st round pick against a bunch of future accountants and grocery store baggers. Grady wasn’t much better either, Mintz was what he was.
Being critical of Wheeler isn’t exonerating anyone else, but I do expect more from the PG than 6 turnovers and missed free throws in crucial moments. Comes with the territory. I don’t trust Wheeler in big moments. I said it before the tournament and I still say it now.
I do think he could be very valuable as a spark plug off the bench. I just don’t want him to be the one controlling a close tournament game late.
Unfortunately, like most recent years, the drop-off will likely be the coach .....
Here's to hoping the players can overcome that drop-off...
Regards
Theres not any and that is what is gonna make this team special . . . and this is coming from someone who tends to down play hype. Just hope Cal does his part and lets them play and doesnt get stuck in that circle motion grind.
Most of the team played poorly, TyTy and Grady included. I do think they gave us a lot when healthy, and was comfortable with them on the floor.
I don’t even care about Mintz, honestly. Never thought he was much more than a bit part on that team. When he was hot from outside it was a cherry on top.
I’m talking about Wheeler mainly because he’s still here. I think the best defensive teams we played last year tried to take away everyone else and make Wheeler and/or Brooks beat us.
Granted, it was easier to take away TyTy and Grady after they were hurt. I’ll give credit to Wheeler for taking what the defense was giving, and making some tough drives to keep us alive. I will also blame him for his part in blowing the lead.
We lost. A point guard making just enough good and bad plays to lead us to a first round OT loss doesn’t get high praise from me. Especially when the issue of Wheeler’s halfcourt production had been a concern throughout the year.
Our goal isn’t stuffing the stat sheet or pulling off moral victories. Only wins matter in the NCAA Tournament.
I’ve said probably 2 dozen times that I think Wheeler is a good piece in an up and down game. I hope we can play that way as much as possible.
When we can’t, I hope Wheeler plays better than he has in the past. I hope guys like Wallace and Livingston can break down their men off the dribble and make plays.
We have a chance to be a better halfcourt team this year even with Wheeler on the court. If we aren’t, I hope we can and will slide Wallace over to the point when necessary and let Wheeler sit and watch.
I don’t have any attachment to the success or failure of Wheeler personally, only to this basketball team. I’ll try not to call anyone an idiot or dolt for seeing things differently.
Ummm the entire team is playing against bad competition. I’m talking about what he’s proven at the college level against actual competition. You aren’t back to back 2nd team all sec by accident. If he could shoot, he’d be 1st team
Fair enough. He could have played better for sure. He needs the other guards to be aggressive and healthy and demand the ball. He didn't have that towards the end of last year and he was forced to do too much. With Wallace and Reeves and even thiero and Frederick I think he will have that more this year.
And Wallace looks so good I think he will get tons of run at PG as well.
I'm not even a huge Wheeler guy but think he gets blamed too much for that loss. He's probably well down the list for me. The turnovers have to improve though. I don't think FT shooting is an issue. He usually hits those and was exhausted by OT because again, IMO, he was asked to carry the load at the guard position. That's on calipari and the 3 no shows in that game more than Wheeler.
All else being equal, I think if Wheeler shot 36% from three the goat talk would be more heading toward great from many if not most of the same detractors. Almost simple as that.
I'd love for him to shoot better too but he is still a higher end point guard despite the flaws.
If a frogs had wings he wouldn't have to hop. Even the guys that run this site said he didn't look good in the first game.
And you're too weak to reply to me. He's the best point guard in the SEC for 2 consecutive years. He has the most assists of any player from any major conference for 2 consecutive years. Argue with that.
He's not the reason we lost that game. Yes, his 6 turnovers and missed free throws CONTRIBUTED to the loss, but to lay it at his feet, as some have, is flat out wrong. As I said above, Brooks, TyTy, and Grady are MORE to blame than Wheeler. That's right, our power forward, small forward, and shooting guard. They shot terribly. They missed open shots. Grady alone went 1-9. But it's all Wheeler's fault. No, it's not.
Wheeler is starting too....guaranteed. That leaves 2 slots IMO.
Wallace / Collins will probably be the nod based on matchups.
Quick rundown on assists-2-turnover ratios from NCAA sites:
2011-12 Marquis Teague 4.8 assists 1.8 A/To
2021-22 Wheeler 6.9 assists 2.27 A/To
2021-22 Washington 2.35 A/To
We are good at the point. Wheeler and Wallace will see lots of minutes together. It sure would help if we could run the ball all the time though.
2011-12 Marquis Teague 4.8 assists 1.8 A/To
2021-22 Wheeler 6.9 assists 2.27 A/To
2021-22 Washington 2.35 A/To
We are good at the point. Wheeler and Wallace will see lots of minutes together. It sure would help if we could run the ball all the time though.
Correct.
He also missed some very important free throws.
The whole team looked incredibly tight that whole game. Very weird.
You will probably see the drop off when we start playing REAL competition.
I think, imo Oscar, Wheeler and Toppin will start, the others will rotate starting depending on matchups
