The "Coaching Graveyard" argument

[Sutterkane]

I am about tired of hearing this ****. How the hell is State the coaching graveyard of the SEC?

-Vandy is going to their first bowl in over 20 years. They are easily a worse job.
-UK is and always will be a basketball school and football will play second fiddle.
-South Carolina has great facilities and fan support. However, they've had back to back hall of fame coaches that have won national championships at their previous jobs and still they cannot get over the hump and win the division.
-Arkansas isn't a bad job by any means but their expectation level far exceeds their capability. They've had 3 coaches since 1990 and the 1 coach that had a winning record they still fired him.

There is still also the point that State is not one of the 4 teams that have not been to Atlanta yet.

 

[Sutterkane]

I am about tired of hearing this ****. How the hell is State the coaching graveyard of the SEC?

-Vandy is going to their first bowl in over 20 years. They are easily a worse job.
-UK is and always will be a basketball school and football will play second fiddle.
-South Carolina has great facilities and fan support. However, they've had back to back hall of fame coaches that have won national championships at their previous jobs and still they cannot get over the hump and win the division.
-Arkansas isn't a bad job by any means but their expectation level far exceeds their capability. They've had 3 coaches since 1990 and the 1 coach that had a winning record they still fired him.

There is still also the point that State is not one of the 4 teams that have not been to Atlanta yet.

 

[mabtsdawg]

is the coaching graveyard of the SEC, the most compelling evidence would be the success that coaches have had before and after they failed at MState. That would prove that it is the specific situation at MSU rather than the coaches' inabilities. So, lets review. Since 1980 . . .

Coach (tenure at MSU)/head coaching wins before coaching MSU/after
Emory Bellard (1979-85)/48/0**
Rocky Felker (1986-90)/0/0
Jackie Sherrill (1991-2003)/105/0 ***
Sylvester Croom (2004-08)/0/0

**Emory Bellard had success at TAMU, 48-27 in 6.5 seasons. Good X and O man. With good players, a good head coach. His failure was as a recruiter. Still with good players recruited under Bob Tyler, Bellard went 20-15 with 2 bowl teams in his first 3 years at MSU.

***Jackie Sherrill was the only coach in this group to have sustained success before or after MSU. At the supposed coaching graveyard MSU, he won 75 games, led 4 of his 13 teams to top 25 finishes (including the highest ranked team from the state of Mississippi in over 30 years, 1999 #12 Coaches Poll), coached 7 teams to winning records, and 6 to bowl games.

My conclusion is this: a good coach can produce reasonably good results at MSU. Coaches who have no business being head coaches will not succeed at MSU, though even Felker and Croom had one winning season each at State. The problem has been the leadership hiring the coaches. One could interpret the 0 wins after MSU as evidence that State is a coaching graveyard. However, I believe a good coach under good AD leadership can make MSU reasonably successful.

editedforclarityku

 

[Todd4State]

I tell what has pissed me off more than anything is the other coaches calling Petersen and telling him it was a coaching graveyard. I wonder if those coaches that called were Croom and the rest of the SEC coaches. (Conspiracy theory).

I think the bottom line is historically we have managed our football program very poorly, and we are paying for it. I think that we are trying to do a lot of things better, and there have been a lot of improvements in the gameday experience and the stadium since I really started going to a lot of games back in 96. But it goes beyond that. We have made poor coaching decisions. If we ever bring in a good coach that has sustained success- Wilson may be that guy, but I have reservations and doubts about him- a lot of it because of guys like Felker and Croom. As they say once bitten twice shy. I didn't like Stansbury at first either, but now I wouldn't trade him for anyone.

After all this, and Croom, and Jackie, and Rocky, I have finally decided that our best hope for the future is to hire someone who has Rocky's MSU background and love for MSU- similar to Cohen- and has the coaching abililty of a Petersen. Sadly, that coach doesn't exist.

 

[mabtsdawg]

If Byrne went after Petersen and almost convinced him, then we've come light years from where we were from a leadership standpoint.

Croom and Felker weren't even coordinators when they got the State job. I was hoping for a young, successful head coach, but the coordinator for the best offense in the country, with no baggage, is a major step up from Felker/Croom type hires.

 

[jackbaddawg]

in the years since the Bear has died.

 

[basedog]

"How the hell is State the coaching graveyard of the SEC?"

None of our coaches have ever gone on to be a HC at another school. Like it or not it is what it is.
I don't have a clue on Wilson being our HC and I don't doubt that he is a good coach with a good background, but I'm disappointed we didn't find someone with HC experience. We seem to fall in this "deep hole" when hiring assistants. I sure hope he can bring some of those assistants from OU with him.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

Even Rockey Felker had a winning season. It's just that, if you DO have success, the Feminazis at Ole Miss and Alabama start sending PI's to Starkville, stalking every one affiliated with the program. Then, the HC there gets a bad reputation "fer cheatin'" and gets blackballed from the coaching profession.

 

[coursesuper]

evrey time the lower cast of the SEC gain a little on the others here comes the NCAA. i.e. us and KY.

 

[RebelBruiser]

Exactly. I think some people get confused and think "coaching graveyard" means that you can't win somewhere. What it means is that if you take the job it'll be the last head coaching job you'll get. Hence, coaching careers "die" at a particular place.

I personally think it's a matter of circumstance that MSU hasn't had many, if any, coaches that have gone on to other head coaching posts.

 

[TheCosmoKramer]

but by this criteria, Auburn is probably a bigger coaching graveyard than State. I'm sure there are other schools comparable, too. Even Tennessee hasn't had a coach take another head coaching job since 1970 or so.

 

[MadDawg.sixpack]

None of our coaches have ever gone on to be a HC at another school.

You can talk about poor management, bad personnel choices, and a host of other excuses but that is the bottom line. Your last job as a HC will be at MSU.

 

[glenlivin]

Seriously, we've been on probation, too dammit. Maybe Alabama is out to get State, but there is no way Ole Miss actually has enough sway to get the NCAA/SEC to do anything to State. If we really had all that sway, why did we get all that probation under Billy Brewer? Oh yeah, because he cheated. I don't blame any other school, even Alabama, for the fact that he was breaking rules left and right.

On to the original argument. The evidence tends show a "graveyard" effect, but I don't think that's the whole case. Felker didn't have any business head coaching in the first place, and neither did Croom. So I think you can toss those out. Sherrill isn't getting touched because he got y'all put on probation (I know they cleared his name, but y'all still went on probation). Where is Billy Brewer now? Nowhere, because he got us on probation.

I think the job in Starkville, though it's going to be damn tough for whoever takes it, is an excellent opportunity for a coach to make good money coaching an SEC team. It's not tough because the institution is bad, it's just because the cupboard literally is bare. If your fanbase will give a good coach two or three years to recruit and coach his own talent (which it probably will because most of you can see that Croom has left you little in the way of talent), I think you'll get back to winning some games.

State's job is no worse than Arkansas (ridiculously unrealistic expectations), South Carolina (competes with Georgia, Clemson, and Tennessee in the same area for recruits and with Georgia, Florida, and Tennessee for the division), Kentucky (basketball school, recruits with Tennessee and Big 10 schools, SEC East), or Vanderbilt (they actually have to recruit student-athletes and they play in the SEC East).

 

[ArmyDawg]

Word! Jackie was screwed by the NCAA...Hell i wouldn't mind taking Jackie back!!! I just watch the 99' Egg Bowl video..I started to tear up lol

 

[KingBarkus]

Exactly. I think some people get confused and think "coaching graveyard" means that you can't win somewhere. What it means is that if you take the job it'll be the last head coaching job you'll get. Hence, coaching careers "die" at a particular place.

I personally think it's a matter of circumstance that MSU hasn't had many, if any, coaches that have gone on to other head coaching posts.

The reason these coaches have not gone on to other head coaching jobs is because they were terrible coaches. There are some
exceptions (Bellard - age, and Sherrill - probation/burn-out). What makes the MSU job a perceived coaching graveyard are the people selecting these bad coaches (LT for example). Hopefully, Byrne will change that.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

...and some ugly as hell ***** sleeping with the top NCAA investigator.

All we kept hearing from our unibrowed, inbred friends up in Oxford, "Yooos gawn git that thar deth peneltee" and "Jackie Sherrill eees a crook". Turns out, the NCAA couldn't pin Sherrill for anything, and we got probation for things like a coach telling a high school player, "Good Game" and Kevin Fant using a booster's credit card to hold some tires until his mom got there to pay for them.

No, the only thing MState was guilty of was beating Auburn, Alabama, and Texas with regularity, and working that Rebel *** over 7 out of the first 11 times Sherrill's teams played them.

 

[saltybulldog]

-you come here after the age of 50.
-if you have success and win and actually want to stay
-if you suck as a coach and would have sucked anywhere

Look, we can argue the point all day. The fact is we have made ****** decisions on coaching hires with the exception of Sherrill. He had sustained success and his tenure is tainted by being allowed to hang around too long. I contend (and have before) if Sherrill would have retired after the '01 or even '02 season we would be much better off.

I think the facts point to...hire a good coach have success.

 

[8dog]

f

 

[Ole Miss Grad]

BS lying post I've read on this board.</p>

 

[El Diablo Blanco]

Croom is a bad head coach. He would not do what Saban has done had Bama hired him. He would not be good anywhere.

 

[Optimus Prime 4]

now the level of success may vary, but that fact remains

 

[Agentdog]

It is not that OM has power with the NCAA. It is that MSU has no political power within the SEC or NCAA. Everybody cheats. However, State is like a poor defendant in our justice system. We don't have the high priced lawyers who can spin facts, confuse a jury, and deflect the focus of the trial on a 3rd party.

I agree with your assessment on the rest of the SEC. Hell, if anything, State is a more secure job than those. If you win 6 games and beat OM every other year, you can be at State for life.

 

[MadDawg.sixpack]

Our being a coaching graveyard has absolutely nothing to do with whether a coach will be succesful or not. But it has everything to do with what coach will agree to come here.

Think about it. Up-and-coming coaches don't come here and build their resume and move on to bigger and better. Coaches only leave or get fired from MSU for these reasons - they suck horribly (Croom) or they were forced out due to improprieties (Sherril). Both of these reasons make MSU their last gig as a head coach. Sure, that trend could be bucked. But someone has to be willing to take the chance they can come here, be succesfull and get another job somewhere else. Hasn't happened in over 50 years.

 

[8dog]

we really haven't give a damn about college football but for the last 30 years. In that time we've made 3 hires. 2 of them were atrocious. 1 of them was great.

to think that state is the reason a coach fails is just stupid and shows people's ignorance.

Honestly, what does ole miss have we don't? its as much a graveyard as our job. They just made a great hire back in 1995.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

but you're not refuting it...it may have only been $100,000 spent on PI's.

 

[glenlivin]

There's a good spin for everything. It's better just to admit that somebody on your staff cheated, and you got punished. Our guys cheated, and we got punished big-time. We didn't go blaming anybody else or suing anybody.

I'm sorry you have a big inferiority complex about Ole Miss, but we are in the same boat with you as far as treatment by the SEC/NCAA. I realize that there is a favored class in the SEC, but I assure you it does not include Ole Miss.

 

[Ole Miss Grad]

By me saying it was a lie, didn't I refute it?

 

[MadDawg.sixpack]

It is that MSU has no political power within the SEC or NCAA.

...or in Mississippi. Hell until just a few months ago, one of ole miss's biggest boosters of all time was regularly buying off judges to secure billion-dollar judgements. This wasn't just corrupt - this was currupt with about 10 zeroes on the end. You really think this man and his power and influence, who held parties at his house for presidential candidates and regularly flew the umiss admins around in his private jet didn't have undue power in the state? Do any of you honestly think buying off the NCAA and investigators is somehow inconceivable when this guy was buying judges left and right?

 

[saltybulldog]

Tubbs was a great hire and Cut was good hire. Hell, Nutt is a great hire.

Ole Miss has just had more practice than us.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

Billy Brewer's fault was that he turned OM back into a decent program.

Both MSU and OM get into trouble for things that Alabama and Tennessee get away with no problem. If either program starts making waves in the SEC, look for Investigators to be all over each campus.

The only difference is, when OM is up and State is down, there's a lot of grumbling and griping among State fans but when it's the other way around, Rebel-fan can get downright malicious.

 

[Ole Miss Grad]

I can agree with most of that, except MSU fans get just as malicious.</p>

Do you actually think MSU didn't hire their own PI's?</p>

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[8dog]

that just kind of fell in their lap.

But you are correct the other two were examples of taking a chance on rising coordinators. Our last hire was a 50 yr old running backs that hadn't been in the college game for 15 yrs. Yet it was MSU that kept him from winning. Classic.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

Still waiting for Khayat to turn in his PLOI.

 

[Agentdog]

I hear ya and know exactly what you are saying. When you got the governor driving recruits to ball games, you got some pull in Jackson and all around the state.

I don't doubt for one second they (reb fans) paid investigators to get some dirt on Sherrill and State. State really pissed off someone stealing Kelley and Wright. I will go another step too......I would not be suprised if Kelley was paid to lay down in games. He is that sorry and I really believe things are/can be that corrupt.

 

[jakldawg]

we should hire someone from Miami University. Then we'd see if their "cradle of coaches" mojo was more powerful than our "coaching graveyard" kryptonite.

 

[MadDawg.sixpack]

to think that state is the reason a coach fails is just stupid and shows people's ignorance.

Again, I don't think MSU is the reason a coach fails. A coach can be succesful here without a doubt. Jackie proved that.

Honestly, what does ole miss have we don't? its as much a graveyard as our job. They just made a great hire back in 1995.

I agree, they are, to a degree. Orgeron learned that. His one and only head coaching job was ole miss. And who do they have now? What many here would call a "retread". Now personally I like Nutt and think it was a good hire for them. But it's his last gig and he knows it. He came to ole miss knowing he's going to retire after he leaves there. They did "buck the trend" with Tubberville however. And they also might buck the trend again if Cutcliffe was to ever land another HC job again. But they did something that will never happen at state - they fired a pretty good coach. You have to be an absolute failure of epic proportions to get fired at state.

Maybe these things will start to change with Byrne at the helm. I don't know. But it's starting to look like "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

 

[RonnyAtmosphere]

..."coaching graveyard" & "career suicide" are just code words for "I took the job @MSU & became a victim."

We live in a society where nobody is responsible for their failures anymore, so if you do fail, you are merely the victim of your enviroment, or the victim of mean people being mean to you.

Too bad these macho football coaches buy into such a ***** concept.

I want a coach @ MSU who will not play the victim card once the going gets tough.

We need a coach @ MSU who wants to kick Dr. Phil's *** instead of wants to sit down & "share" with him.

 

[basedog]

"Maybe these things will start to change with Byrne at the helm. I don't know. But it's starting to look like "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

I'm a little concerned now, GB seemed to be on a "hot pace" but things changed quickly and we seemed to have fallen back to "our old self" with talking to assistants. The problem with an assistant as a HC is you really don't know who he will bring with him. A lot of first time HC seem to bring another assistant and promote them to OC and DC jobs, you just don't really know if this will work or not, all I do know it ain't worked at Msu. When Emory and Jackie first got the job they both brought good assistants then things went south for both. Felker and Crxxm didn't bring much to the table.

If I'm GB, I'd make a hard run at Patterson just like he did with Pettersen, but maybe he did.

 

[Sutterkane]

"the U"ku

 

[Duggar Hall Desk]

Our last 2 hires (Sherrill and Croom) obviously looked at Miss St as if it were going to be their last job. If we can get a younger guy who views Miss St as a "stepping stone" position, he'd have more at stake (his career is still out in front of him). If he could win at one of the traditionally weaker teams in a BCS conference, a big paycheck from a perennial powerhouse might be down the road. While I'd love to get a younger guy in who was successful and decided he loved State and wanted to stay, I wouldn't care if the guy was successful and then went on to more lucrative job - at least he would've proved to the next coach that it can be done without being some old coach at the end of their career.