The problem is the bad calls were all significant. The phantom holding call at the beginning was less impactful as the never mind personal foul flag or the let’s pretend the fumble didn’t happen non-call. When you play against a better team, you need to play your best and get lucky. Mich certainly didn’t need the help but got it anyway.
Refs
- Thread starter scarletbergen
- Start date
Time to move on. None of the calls separately or together would have changed the outcome. Michigan was better and outplayed us. No shame in that. It’s water under the bridge now.
There are a few winnable games that will determine where this team truly is. 4 wins and the coach should be on notice; 6 wins points toward a brighter future.
There are a few winnable games that will determine where this team truly is. 4 wins and the coach should be on notice; 6 wins points toward a brighter future.
Yes obviously I know you have to factor in the camera angle. He landed on the first down marker, but that was after pulling the ball back into his body, he extended it forward while in the air. Of course none of us are 100% sure of if he got the first down or not since there wasn't a definitive camera angle, but my point is that if their goal was really to help Michigan, they had two opportunities on that play to give them the first down and it wouldn't have seemed that obvious, yet they did not. Why didn't they give them the first down? Could it be because they are trying to get the calls right (albeit often failing to do so) and not trying to decide who wins?
Yeah. The funny thing is that there are surely Michigan fans in an identical thread on their board complaining about a referee conspiracy (the refs are probably closet Ohio State fans or something). It's just what some fans in every fan base do.
Rutgers has been the beneficiary of officiating mistakes plenty of times, as have all teams...
Have you personally ever played? A huge momentum change at the beginning. Would have meant that the later calls would have been all that much more important. Even if they outplayed us- those are a group of calls that would have made it a possible WTF game for them.
Plenty of teams have outplayed their opponents but had a couple turnovers or plays that changed the final outcome. And that was pretty much the only way to win this game.
BTW- as much as they "outplayed" us WITH these BS calls- they scored a total of 24 points on offense.
That crap goes no where. I'm talking about a major public showing up of the Refs. It gets their attention & the Leagues. They don't like it and are far less inclined to do it again. You've got to take a hard stand against hosing or you'll get it again. Trust me I've been there.
Every time Michigan loses a close game, there is a percentage of fans who are blaming the refs for calls they supposedly messed up. Everyone else is blaming the coaches.
It is what fans do.
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I don't think there is a conspiracy but there does seem to be trends. I also think Refs can either be intimidated or almost an unidentified weight they know is there which leans them one way or another.
It could also just be they happened to make worse calls on one team or the other.
But always a little strange that it never seems that an overwhelming favorite and a league darling, ever ends up on the wrong side of it too many times.
It could also just be they happened to make worse calls on one team or the other.
But always a little strange that it never seems that an overwhelming favorite and a league darling, ever ends up on the wrong side of it too many times.
So true. I remember reading an article on this stuff and the general consensus was that refs are human and subconsciously the crowd does sometimes have an effect on their work. Also, they know who the powers that be are in the organization that employs them.
Let's compare it to sales- I work enterprise sales. If my Sales person comes to me with 3 Fortune 100 this quarter and 10 mid size...While I do everything to make sure every client feels equal...well
I said it in another thread…. PFF should have a spin off where individual refs and crews are graded and stats publicly made available. There should be rewards for good performance and correction for poor. This isn’t that hard.
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That’s the beauty of it. They are graded, but accuracy probably isn’t the result being measured.
See my 2007 Big East points. The inaccuracy was too egregious and too concerted to possibly be mere unintentional mistakes.
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They already do all of that except for making the grades public.
Its great that they are graded but do we know if there are rewards or implications for good/bad grading? For instance, if a ref is continually graded well - do they get rewards such as participation in higher level conference and post season bowl games. If continuing to grade out poorly, are they replaced with someone else vying for the position.
Yeah the Big Ten's ref assignor also assigns a couple lower conferences. The grades are done by an independent evaluator, I believe usually an NFL ref (yeah they make a lot of mistakes also but if there were anyone better, they'd probably be reffing too). Poor grades gets you suspended or more assignments in one of the lower conferences, which pay significantly less. If your grades are good, you get to work every week as well as bigger bowl games, and just like the players--you only get to make the big bucks in the pros if you perform well enough in college games.
again, graded on what ? officiating is an art, so they are certainly not graded on accuracy. they could throw a legit flag on every play, but that’s not their objective.
their role is to ensure overall fair competition but a conference $ biased call or two doesn’t undermine that expectation.
you do have to beat the conference (refs) and the opponent sometimes.
their role is to ensure overall fair competition but a conference $ biased call or two doesn’t undermine that expectation.
you do have to beat the conference (refs) and the opponent sometimes.
actually you are partially right.. he does stick it out with both hands but he is already out of bounds when it reaches its farthest point. This is the original live play angle.. the replays showed harsher angles. Note the shadows... he is actually farther out of bounds than he appears. (The first down marker shadow is misleading as the marker is leaning down and away and is being pulled away). Then add in what the original call was as well as the replay call. But think of that.. Michigan gets an automatic replay review on this but Rutgers does not on the fumble.
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Michigan player is already out of bounds there.. do not believe the shadow.. look at ref and bench shadows on right side. The sun is putting the Michigan player's shadow in-bounds.. but he is already out of bounds.
I'm not really interested in splitting hairs on this. Like I said, my point was just that the call was close enough that if their goal was to protect Michigan rather than get the right call, they easily could have given them that call without it seeming obvious that they are biased.actually you are partially right.. he does stick it out with both hands but he is already out of bounds when it reaches its farthest point. This is the original live play angle.. the replays showed harsher angles. Note the shadows... he is actually farther out of bounds than he appears. (The first down marker shadow is misleading as the marker is leaning down and away and is being pulled away). Then add in what the original call was as well as the replay call. But think of that.. Michigan gets an automatic replay review on this but Rutgers does not on the fumble.
The bad calls, bad spots, early whistles, late whistles, no whistles, and unfumble cost us this game. On average, M has a better and deeper team. The refs stripped us of any chance to win. They had to! It was panic time, so the refs pulled their pants down! Now everybody with a wit in their head saw their dirty laundry!
The issue I have has nothing to do with conspiracy ****. It has to do with the Big 10 refs both in football and in basketball suck. They impact games repeatedly.
Now why your thick head cannot contemplate that that phantom holding call was impactful is beyond me. You do realize we punched them in the mouth to go up 7-0 in 3 plays. We then cause a three and out on a beautiful sack with everybody covered downfield and get the ball back and run that play to almost midfield. We then get put back to the 11 and Kyle runs for 6 and 10 yards to make it 3rd and 4 and we false start and then have to punt after an unsuccessful 3rd and 9. It is pretty clear that our first 5 of 6 plays were very positive with good yardage and you can argue we were gashing them . If the hold doesn’t get called maybe Kyle’s next 16 yards gained moves us to the 35 with a first down closer to field goal or Td territory. There is a very real thing in football that you might have heard of , called “ Momentum “. We had all of it .
To prove it was real for the rest of the quarter , our defense botched 2 coverages on back to back plays to gift them the 7-7 tie. Even the announcers were saying McCarthy was struggling and after Jennings or the safeties left Donovan Edwards uncovered , Michigan had to resort to a trick play to get something done. We gifted them a TD.
But guess what , we still got the ball on the third drive and went right down the field again , so they weren’t stopping us and we still had momentum and but for another false start on 4th and 1 , we settled for the 51 yard FG that Patel just missed, had the distance but just sailed late 1-2 feet wide . The entire momentum was with Rutgers and more than likely we have the lead heading into the second quarter after the second drive before we try to add onto it on the third drive.
To try and claim that the refs call has no impact on the game when football is totally a game of momentum is just missing the essence of the issue for most of us. Sure maybe we weren’t good enough to hang with Michigan throughout , although I am sure Kirk wished he had that 4th and 2 play call to do over again , but things happen in games that refs effect. Like not even reviewing the fumble . Clearly Momentum had shifted to Michigan so our getting that fumble would have changed momentum back to us. How they didn’t even review was criminal.
my head isn't that thick. I never said it wasn't impactful. It isn't all or nothing. What I said was we should be prepared for it and be able to deal with it. Like you said, it goes in in multiple sports across multiple seasons. If the call went against Michigan, do you really believe their offense vanishes for 2 whole quarters?
My opinion on the refs isn't relevant other than my belief it shouldn't be addressed to the TV audience and the team needs to overcome adversity to compete against the best teams. If they can't, they need work. From what I saw the defense mostly competed very well despite the refs till late in the game. The offense couldn't get a first down.
My opinion on the refs isn't relevant other than my belief it shouldn't be addressed to the TV audience and the team needs to overcome adversity to compete against the best teams. If they can't, they need work. From what I saw the defense mostly competed very well despite the refs till late in the game. The offense couldn't get a first down.
Your second photo doesn’t show the angle they showed on replay. As he was stretching for the first down his body and the ball was already out of bounds as it crossed the sideline. Now that is a hard call to make and after seeing the replay it did appear he crossed the sideline before he made the first down , but he was like a feet away. They called the play as a “ It stands” which left the ball a yard away when it should have been 1 foot away and moved up but they and the replay people are so bad , they didn’t even do that correctly. Big 10 refs suck in football and in basketball. This is just further proof.Every time Michigan loses a close game, there is a percentage of fans who are blaming the refs for calls they supposedly messed up. Everyone else is blaming the coaches.
It is what fans do.
And you could bet that if the ball carrier broke free, and made yardage at that same point, they would have allowed the play to continue and it being to Michigans benefit
Now you are making stuff up. I for one never said or implied it was all or nothing , just that it changes momentum in a game that affects the game. Momentum is real . Is 14-0 different than 7-0? What game did you watch that you thought our offense after the first drive did nothing ? We moved the ball on the first, second and third drives plenty. First drive TD 75 yards. Second drive 26 yards then another 14 after the penalty 40 yards. Third drive from our 20 to the Michigan 39 or 41 yards.
Your perception of how the whole day went might be referring to the second quarter where we only had the ball 2-3 times and we were moving again but Kirk got conservative running after Gavin was successful passing and failed to account for their blitzing safety off the edge that blew up back to back running plays and I believe the 3rd and 1. Which also happened after they blew the whistle early when Kyle was pushed for the first down.
In the third period , Michigan opened it on an 8 minute drive and the defense held for a FG. We got the ball for the first time in the third period on our 25 and went down the field to the 27 yard line of Michigan on 8 straight passing plays to get to the 4th and 2. There was also the taunting penalty that was picked up 2 plays earlier on the 37 that would have given us a first down at their 22. So we moved it 45 yards again. Even after the pick 6 on the horrible play call, Gavin moved the ball against their 1st team defense in the 4th quarter and the fumble that wasn’t also happened.
Overall we only punted 3 times all day and the offense and Gavin played reasonably well.
On the other hand the defense didn’t play well overall. There were 6 blown assignments that I counted and that doesn’t account for Melton’s atrocious coverage giving up the late first half TD . The 2 busts on Michigan’s second drive where we allowed Edwards to go in motion uncovered , followed by Jennings and the safeties to bite on the flea flicker. At least 2x on 4th and 1 and 3rd and 5 , Loyal allowed McCarthy to run in the RPO for a first down. Loyal was there , he was the only edge f defender and got sucked in 2x. Jennings got sucked in again later in the game. We also let McCarthy run after a rush for 15-20 yards. As a whole we gave up over 200 yards rushing and 200 yards passing. That is a lousy defensive game by any standard and Haraysimiak after the first drive where he sent pressure and Powell got the sack did not pressure McCarthy the rest of the day nor did he send edge guys to run blitz to blow up their running plays like they did to us in the second quarter. I do not think our OC and DC had their finest days.
Holy **** - am I at a QAnon meeting?
" Cost us this game." Are you a fvckin moron?
When do you start bitching about the refs in the Wagner game?
I agree.
One thing I would say is that the questionable calls affected our coaches and players.
Schiano was pissed off right into the locker room at halftime.
The problem is that GS himself, and probably other coaches and players, did not “chop the moment”. They needed to let that go and focus on the moment and let the past be the past. This cost us in the 2nd qtr perhaps.
This. 100% The person in charge of getting the team to overcome the adversity couldn't do it himself. Not about knocking Schiano or disputing what may or may not have happened which people keep trying ti explain. It's about performance psychology and leadership philosophy. Get mad in the moment but refocus. I'm not saying it's easy but the team needed that. All teams do. The refs didn't determine his emotional reaction. He did.
Flag, unsportsmanlike conduct, taunting!! Oh wait, never mind.
Yeah because blaming the refs is a good strategy in any sport other than baseball.
So- for those in the "holding call didn't change the game"
Michigan scored a total of 24 offensive points. 24.
That call stopped what "could" have been a 2nd score for us and possible have us at 14 points with momentum. The phantom whistle on KM stopped a 1st down deep in their territory that would have been at least another 3 and maybe 7. Has us at 21
I'm sure they scored on a drive that was helped by one of the other discussed bad calls.
Michigan scored a total of 24 offensive points. 24.
That call stopped what "could" have been a 2nd score for us and possible have us at 14 points with momentum. The phantom whistle on KM stopped a 1st down deep in their territory that would have been at least another 3 and maybe 7. Has us at 21
I'm sure they scored on a drive that was helped by one of the other discussed bad calls.
Michigan also took its foot off the gas in the 4th quarter, going to our #3 running back all dive offense.
Yes, the refs may have screwed up some calls.
No, it wasn't enough to change the ultimate outcome of the game. There are probably some crazy Northwestern fans who think bad calls "changed the momentum of the game" and ultimately cost them a chance at a W over Rutgers.
I don’t think it was that they took their foot off the gas as much as that they wanted to boost McCarthy’s confidence with a clean game after throwing a bunch of picks vs. Bowling Green. It wasn’t worth letting him continue to throw with the game safely in hand.
Well, it is never the case where people think the whole crew is biased. In this particular case.. the replay booth guy had a quick reaction to that ball being marked short.. but no such reaction when Rutgers recovered a fumble that was called down. So the replay guy was suspect and he could not "just give them that call". I'd love to know if the replay official advised the head ref that he thought it was a first down.
The phantom holding call that was a .. 40-ish yard change.. that was one ref making that call (I think incompetence there, not bias.. but such calls could be biased).
The 3rd and 7 PI flag on what would be a TD pass.. BIAS I think.
The fumble.. no replay.. perhaps a double-bias.
The waved-off unsportsmanlike call.. BIAS.
I'd love to know if we can assign a common culprit to some of these. Like the ref that had the unsportsmanlike call waved off was also the guy who made the PI call.. or the no-fumble call.
Yes.. Ohio State and Michigan have better players.. but they also seem to get an awful lot of calls and no-calls go their way. We see refs protect "stars" in many sports.. like Michael Jordan being allowed to foul to get a steal.. like "Magic Johnson" carrying the ball as a point guard.. hell.. refs created that "tuck rule" on the spot so the league could thumb its nose at Al Davis and the Raiders. It happens.. and I think the Big Ten blue bloods routinely get help from some officials... and oddly, even when they do not need it.
I can never recall prior to Saturday an official picking up the flag on an unsportsmanlike conduct call. I'm sure it's happened but I can't think of one.
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