Question For Fans re CTE

[Hungry Jack]

Pretty safe to say that football is integral to the culture of the South. Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players? How is the issue being received by fans?

My personal feeling is that it offers substantial proof that sustained exposure to the sport incurs a high risk of brain damage. In other words, it beats your brain up pretty badly. I think it is very real.

Part of me thinks an earthquake will hit the NFL, but it will take about a decade. The other part thinks that there is SO much money at stake, there will always be a Faustian bargain in play.

 

[mrtnhd28]

Pretty safe to say that football is integral to the culture of the South. Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players? How is the issue being received by fans?

My personal feeling is that it offers substantial proof that sustained exposure to the sport incurs a high risk of brain damage. In other words, it beats your brain up pretty badly. I think it is very real.

Part of me thinks an earthquake will hit the NFL, but it will take about a decade. The other part thinks that there is SO much money at stake, there will always be a Faustian bargain in play.

"Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players'?


Really H.J.
Are you really as arrogant as this makes you sound? How do you think the issue is being received?

Yes, football is an integral part of Southern culture. Similar to "HOCKEY" in the northern states. We love the game but don't really get too fired up over hockey. Probably why the SEC has won 8 out of it's 10 Bowl games. Go figure.

 

[tacacoca]

Pretty safe to say that football is integral to the culture of the South. Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players? How is the issue being received by fans?

My personal feeling is that it offers substantial proof that sustained exposure to the sport incurs a high risk of brain damage. In other words, it beats your brain up pretty badly. I think it is very real.

Part of me thinks an earthquake will hit the NFL, but it will take about a decade. The other part thinks that there is SO much money at stake, there will always be a Faustian bargain in play.

I am a UT grad and avid college football fan. I agree with you. It is alarming and meets the standard of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. It is real and very concerning. Athletes use diet, training, etc. to get bigger/faster/stronger while rules and referees try to mitigate the impact of it. It isn't working.I am also fearful that the money is so big that the issue will always be danced around, rationalized and/or mis represented.

 

[miles196737201]

Hungry Jack, to say football is an integral part of life in the south is an understatement. It's a way of life. I'm a lawyer in a small firm and every lawyer is a huge football fan either Tennessee, Vanderbilt or unfortunately a couple bammers. All we do is talk football year round and everyone is on message boards or Twitter following recruiting. More time probably goes into following recruiting than when the season starts. My son is named is Knox if that tells you anything. High school football is really big especially in the Mid State and especially private schools. There is a high school coach of a very elite private school in Nashville which has a very good football team and he makes over a half million dollars a year if you can believe that.

Interestingly, I live in Nashville which has become a melting pot because of the boom in business and mostly health care and I see ohio state fans everywhere. Have three on my street with flags and window coverings.

Anyway, I agree with you on concussions. I saw a stat where something like 70% of injuries in the NFL occur on special teams. Also, just look at some former older boxers

Nice chatting and good luck next year and I will be pulling for y'all when you play that slimeball Urban Meyer.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Thanks for the replies. I know we have at least a few skeptics on thes boards, and I imagine quite a few more out there. I really have no idea how the populace feels because the issue is rarely brought up.

The high school anecdote is interesting because high school football participation should be a leading indicator of player opinion. Pop Warner football enrollments declined 9.5% from 2010-2012. I'd posit that this is a strong reflection of parental influence. However, high school participation probably more reflects player choice.

Mr TN Head,

Sorry if I come across as arrogant. I am not. Just interested in science and other people's opinions. It's not like we have a chance to chat over coffee on a regular basis. If I thought SEC fans were a bunch of myopic football crazed fools I'd just assume their heads were completely in the sand and in denial, and would not bother to ask. Good luck to the Vols. I expect them to have a big year in 2016.

 

[willycat]

Hungry Jack, to say football is an integral part of life in the south is an understatement. It's a way of life. I'm a lawyer in a small firm and every lawyer is a huge football fan either Tennessee, Vanderbilt or unfortunately a couple bammers. All we do is talk football year round and everyone is on message boards or Twitter following recruiting. More time probably goes into following recruiting than when the season starts. My son is named is Knox if that tells you anything. High school football is really big especially in the Mid State and especially private schools. There is a high school coach of a very elite private school in Nashville which has a very good football team and he makes over a half million dollars a year if you can believe that.

Interestingly, I live in Nashville which has become a melting pot because of the boom in business and mostly health care and I see ohio state fans everywhere. Have three on my street with flags and window coverings.

Anyway, I agree with you on concussions. I saw a stat where something like 70% of injuries in the NFL occur on special teams. Also, just look at some former older boxers

Nice chatting and good luck next year and I will be pulling for y'all when you play that slimeball Urban Meyer.

Funny that you mentioned boxing in your analogy, since my friends and I were recently discussing the future of football as we know it and the concensus was that football is heading down that same downward road. Sure it may ten or more years in the future but when CTE cause and affect become more readily known, only the underprivlidged and poor kids will play the game. The tide will begin to turn when high school programs can no longer support and pay for the insurance premiums needed to protect them from injury lawsuits. This will eventually effect college and pro football in the number of participants willing to sacrifice their future quality of life, as well as the costs associated with defending against and paying injured players. Don't know what will replace football as Americas #1 sport, maybe lacrosse or soccer as we've been told for years or baseball might once again become #1, we will see.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

On Southern Culture: You won't find many people on a football fan message board saying that football is not an integral part of the culture down south because, of course, for them it is. But the truth is, it becomes less so every year. The younger generation have less interest in sports in general than their parents, and that includes football. Growing up, they play more soccer now, but there's no robust means for them to switch from youth-player to adult-fan in that sport in the US; the TV market simply hasn't caught hold.

Having said all that (and none of that is a "southern thing," I think it's pretty true nationwide), football is still a big deal among a significant percentage of the population in Tennessee and, it seems, elsewhere in the south. But that's true up north and out west as well. I've been to Happy Valley for a game...I'm aware that the biggest football stadium in the nation is in Michigan...I spent my college years at a small place on the Hudson River in New York where football is absolutely HUGE. I've seen droves of football fanatics in San Fransisco, and in Colorado. Football passion is certainly not isolated to the Southeast. Southern parents may pass on to their children their love of the home team more than other parents, I don't have any way to gauge that. If so, that's probably the one significant cultural difference between regions when it comes to football fandom.

What I'm trying to say is that this "football is religion in the South" stereotype simply isn't valid. It is poetic. It sells books and newspapers. But it's mostly fiction. In the South, religion is religion (that's one way we are more and more different from the Northeast and Pacific Coast, according to polls). The difference between the South and the rest of the nation, when it comes to football, is not nearly as stark as the sports writers (esp. southern sports writers) would have you believe.

On Concussions: Can't answer for all southern sports fans. But for me and those I know well enough to have discussed this subject with, it's a concern of course. A little over a century ago, young men were getting killed playing football, and not just one or two but in the tens and twenties each year. It got so bad that President Roosevelt (Teddy) stood up a commission to come up with solutions.

I think we're at that kind of crossroads again. It does not threaten the sport's existence, but it can certainly change aspects of the sport's complexion. We'll just have to wait and see what solutions the experts and ruling bodies come up with. I'm in favor of anything that keeps our players safer without emasculating the sport.

Thanks for the question, Hungry Jack, it's a good one!

 

[Hungry Jack]

Excellent comments VFL. My sense, perhaps misguided, is that football is THE sport across the southern tier. A more rural population and a relative absence of pro teams (you can basically draw a trapezoid from Atlanta to Nashvegas to Nouvelle Orleans to Miami and find only amateur sports inside if). As you note, the same is true in PA, another largely rural state. MIchigan has its own football phenomenon.

Chicago is pro sports first, then high school basketball. Further north, hockey really starts to take hold. My native St Louis is baseball crazed, but soccer is huge among the amateur ranks, and growing.

So perhaps there is more diversity of sports in the Midwest and Great Lakes. Or perhaps I am just misinformed (part of the purpose of asking is to address that).

Curious--where did you attend college? I lived briefly in the Huson Valley. Beautiful area.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Excellent comments VFL. My sense, perhaps misguided, is that football is THE sport across the southern tier. A more rural population and a relative absence of pro teams (you can basically draw a trapezoid from Atlanta to Nashvegas to Nouvelle Orleans to Miami and find only amateur sports inside if). As you note, the same is true in PA, another largely rural state. MIchigan has its own football phenomenon.

Chicago is pro sports first, then high school basketball. Further north, hockey really starts to take hold. My native St Louis is baseball crazed, but soccer is huge among the amateur ranks, and growing.

So perhaps there is more diversity of sports in the Midwest and Great Lakes. Or perhaps I am just misinformed (part of the purpose of asking is to address that).

Curious--where did you attend college? I lived briefly in the Huson Valley. Beautiful area.

Thanks, Jack. Call me JP, please. VFL is just a team thing.

Football is definitely first among equals as a spectator sport in the south, but that's no different from most other parts of the nation if the polls are right. If you want to find cultural differences between north and south, you have to look at NASCAR versus Hockey. That's where differences really emerge. On football, we're more alike than not.

And another fiction about the south: we're not that rural any more. Get one of those photographs of the US at night shot from the International Space Station. Pretty stark evidence that pretty much the entire US east of the Mississippi is now urban or suburban. Plenty of kids in Tennessee still live near farms, but very few live on a farm...and almost all of them are within a 30-minute drive of a metropolitan area. I say this having grown up baling hay for my best friend's dad. It's a different South today than it was when we were kids. For rural today, you have to go west, to Montana or Utah or thereabouts.

As for pro sports, when I was a kid, everyone in Tennessee rooted for the Atlanta Falcons and Braves, because there were no closer pro teams. That's 4 hours away, so not a great distance, but still, not home state. Today, with the Titans in Nashville and the Panthers in Charlotte, no one in Tennessee is more than 3 hours or so from a "home" pro team. Maybe down in parts of Mississippi and Alabama they still feel isolated from pro teams, but that would be about it. Everywhere else is not much different from living in, say, Albany (2-3 hours from Boston, NYC, or Buffalo).

I went to West Point. And I agree, it is a beautiful part of the country. Have many fond memories of weekends drinking beer, x-country skiing,and cutting up at a cabin on Long Lake north of Lake George with my roommates in the dead of a NY winter.

Where were you when you lived there?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

This is the image I was thinking of:

 

[Hungry Jack]

JP,

"Rural" is a poor descriptor, but the satellite image depicts the many smaller population clusters (outside of Atlanta and Miami that tend to define south. This obviously keeps the pro sports franchises to a limited set of metro areas, leaving more exposure to amateur athletics.

This will change as pupulatuon shifts to the Sunbelt. I once worked in higher education, and the demographic trends for the typical small Midwestern liberal arts college is pretty disturbing (not the Williams and Oberlins of the world, but modest ones like Rockford, Knox, etc). And places I have visited like Nashville, Richmond, Mobile, etc seem like great places to live and raise kids.

I lived briefly in Westchester County before I went to live in Budapest. I hiked a few sections of the AT around Bear Mtn and loved it. One day my girlfriend and I picked up 5 bags of trash on Bear Mountain! So it's not only Appalachians that litter (that's a stereotype joke--being from southern Missouri, I am entitled to it). I find similar situations when I backpack the Shawnee region in southern Illinois. I hate litter, so I pick it up.

Some of my favorite people are farmers in Illinois. A lot more aware of global things than most people in my tony Chicago zip code--global trade and crop prices, weather patterns, water quality and soil issues, Monsanto's attempts to rule the world, and how to fix a burned out clutch.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Jack, I salute you for keeping our natural resources pristine, as it seems you've been doing all your life. That's awesome.

I get what you're saying about folks in central and southern Illinois. I went to grad school at Indiana-Bloomington back in the 90s. Big parts of that state, and Illinois next door, felt just as "rural" (and by that, I mean suburban mostly, with small farms between the towns and cities) as anywhere in Tennessee. Later, I went to the Army War College in Carlisle Pennsylvania, and again felt the same small town atmosphere, surrounded by family farms between townships, just like being back home (only colder). And as already mentioned, big parts of upstate New York are pretty much the same way.

In fact, if you get away from I-95/the Atlantic coast (DC to Boston), you would find a great uniformity of lifestyles pretty much everywhere east of the Mississippi, taking into account large population sinks like Chicago, Charlotte, Indianapolis and Nashville.

So I truly do believe that this urban north / rural south generality is pretty much a fiction today, albeit one grounded in a true past (say, 50-80 years ago). The average Tennessee teen is just as likely as the average New York or Illinois teen to grow up playing soccer and computer games with friends while living in a neat house in a tidy suburban community or mid-sized town. We've pretty much homogenized east of the Mississippi.

 

[madmaxvol]

Pretty safe to say that football is integral to the culture of the South. Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players? How is the issue being received by fans?

My personal feeling is that it offers substantial proof that sustained exposure to the sport incurs a high risk of brain damage. In other words, it beats your brain up pretty badly. I think it is very real.

Part of me thinks an earthquake will hit the NFL, but it will take about a decade. The other part thinks that there is SO much money at stake, there will always be a Faustian bargain in play.

I grew up in the South and started playing contact football at the age of 6. I played through High School...during that time I sustained 2 verified concussions (1 year apart), but an unknown number of "mild concussions". I "had my bell rung" many times...too many to recall. I have 3 sons who love football. They play flag football, but I have made a conscious choice to steer them away from playing in pads. I believe there at plenty of other parents who grew up around football, but are choosing a different path for their children. I am encouraged by the targeting rules, and improvements in equipment...but not enough to give me a warm fuzzy feeling about putting my kids at risk. Other parents may choose differently, and I don't judge their decisions. We all have a different level of risk we will tolerate.

 

[Hungry Jack]

I grew up in the South and started playing contact football at the age of 6. I played through High School...during that time I sustained 2 verified concussions (1 year apart), but an unknown number of "mild concussions". I "had my bell rung" many times...too many to recall. I have 3 sons who love football. They play flag football, but I have made a conscious choice to steer them away from playing in pads. I believe there at plenty of other parents who grew up around football, but are choosing a different path for their children. I am encouraged by the targeting rules, and improvements in equipment...but not enough to give me a warm fuzzy feeling about putting my kids at risk. Other parents may choose differently, and I don't judge their decisions. We all have a different level of risk we will tolerate.

Great points here.

I think football won't be an option for my five year old. It's an easy decision because it's unlikely that he will attend a high school that offers football, unless we move to the burbs (not in the plan).

But I played rugby at NU and am quite fond of the sport. I believe that it is much safer than football, but that does not mean that rugby is safe. And the answer to that question depends, as you so aptly point out, on what level of risk is tolerable.

I'd like to see CTE research on pro rugby players before I make any real conclusions. For now, I'd be inclined to let my son play rugby.

 

[NUCat320]

Thanks, Jack. Call me JP, please. VFL is just a team thing.

Football is definitely first among equals as a spectator sport in the south, but that's no different from most other parts of the nation if the polls are right. If you want to find cultural differences between north and south, you have to look at NASCAR versus Hockey. That's where differences really emerge. On football, we're more alike than not.

And another fiction about the south: we're not that rural any more. Get one of those photographs of the US at night shot from the International Space Station. Pretty stark evidence that pretty much the entire US east of the Mississippi is now urban or suburban. Plenty of kids in Tennessee still live near farms, but very few live on a farm...and almost all of them are within a 30-minute drive of a metropolitan area. I say this having grown up baling hay for my best friend's dad. It's a different South today than it was when we were kids. For rural today, you have to go west, to Montana or Utah or thereabouts.

As for pro sports, when I was a kid, everyone in Tennessee rooted for the Atlanta Falcons and Braves, because there were no closer pro teams. That's 4 hours away, so not a great distance, but still, not home state. Today, with the Titans in Nashville and the Panthers in Charlotte, no one in Tennessee is more than 3 hours or so from a "home" pro team. Maybe down in parts of Mississippi and Alabama they still feel isolated from pro teams, but that would be about it. Everywhere else is not much different from living in, say, Albany (2-3 hours from Boston, NYC, or Buffalo).

I went to West Point. And I agree, it is a beautiful part of the country. Have many fond memories of weekends drinking beer, x-country skiing,and cutting up at a cabin on Long Lake north of Lake George with my roommates in the dead of a NY winter.

Where were you when you lived there?

JP - I'm a recent transplant from all points Midwest (Chicago, Iowa, Michigan, and, yes, IU grad school) who moved to metro ATL in 2010, and I do see stark differences in football culture in the Midwest versus the South.

1 - start younger down here.
Growing up in the Chicago suburbs in the 80s, the youngest I knew of for tackle football was fourth grade, and you had to travel to another town for that. Here, I know of five and six and seven year olds who play tackle football.

2 - football culture is everyone, not just 'fans'
Here, 'everyone' mostly refers to 'women', where every woman seemingly has their Auburn or Bama or Tennessee wardrobe and accessories, and certainly their set of party dishes. (Seriously, the best way to make money in the south - or on Shark Tank - is to have something that is sec football license-able - everyone will find a way to buy it.) And families have game day parties every weekend, or many weekends, and not just when the teams get good. I grew up in a Notre Dame family with family friends who were in Notre Dame families, and, while USC or a bowl game might warrant a gathering, Tennessee or Rutgers or Pitt or Michigan usually would not.

(My theory is based on warm weather. Tailgating and parties are far more fun for Thanksgiving in the south - I think I've worn shorts three years straight - than in the Midwest. It typically doesn't require much heartiness or unpleasantness to be a casual fan in the south.)

3 - the state school connection
While ND has some by proxy fans, Illinois does not. They're almost always alums. Certainly, IU doesn't have a base of non-grads, though Iowa and Michigan both do. In the south, a significant chunk of a fanbase has nothing but a geographic and taxation connection to the school.

4 - flags and bumper stickers and team license plates are everywhere
Outward displays of team pride are simply more pervasive.


Football is *popular* nationwide. I do think it's more pervasive part of the culture in the south. Chick-Fil-A devotes advertising for their bowl game game year-round - and there's no more southern combination than CFA and CFB.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Interesting observations, NUCat320, and just as valid as mine.

One note, though: your "start younger down here" observation is probably due to time rather than geography. In the 70s and 80s, I think Pop Warner football was only open to children 9 and older (which would match your 4th grade memories). Over the years, it has shifted to allow younger and younger leagues, so that now it is open to 5 year olds and up (which surprised me to discover). Pop Warner having started in Philadelphia and being just as popular up north as down south or out west, I'm thinking the passage of years is a better explanation for that difference than Atlanta vs Chicago or south vs north.

That aside, I see no reason to believe my own observations any more than yours. So let's call them both data points and assume that the reality is probably somewhere in between.

 

[Hungry Jack]

JP,

Have you spent any time at the Big South Fork Rec area?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

JP,

Have you spent any time at the Big South Fork Rec area?

No, Jack, sorry, I grew up in Middle Tennessee and retired back to Nashville. So I'm more familiar with the parks and lakes and attractions in the central part of the state. The three stars on the Tennessee flag represent the three geographic "grand divisions" of the state (mountainous east, rolling center, river valley west); most of my experience is in the middle part.

Have you been, or looking at the possibility of going? I can ask around, help research it if you need me to.

 

[Hungry Jack]

No, Jack, sorry, I grew up in Middle Tennessee and retired back to Nashville. So I'm more familiar with the parks and lakes and attractions in the central part of the state. The three stars on the Tennessee flag represent the three geographic "grand divisions" of the state (mountainous east, rolling center, river valley west); most of my experience is in the middle part.

Have you been, or looking at the possibility of going? I can ask around, help research it if you need me to.

BSF is on the upper Cumberland plateau in north-central TN (north of 40, west of Knoxville/Crab Orchard range, northeast of Nashvegas). Mrs. Jack and I spend a week there about 20 years ago, and had a great time--rafted class 3/4 water (river was way up), hiked, horsebacked, mountain-biked, and fornicated. It was a great week.

If you like the outdoors and wilderness solitude, BSF would be a great choice. It does not have the dramatic peaks of the Smokies, but nor does it have the crowds and traffic, rutted trails, and all the modernity of our national parks.

 

[madmaxvol]

JP,

Have you spent any time at the Big South Fork Rec area?

I live about 30 miles from the Big South Fork. What time of year were you considering going? Really nice rapids in the Summer. Scenic watershed trails in other months.

 

[madmaxvol]

Great points here.

I think football won't be an option for my five year old. It's an easy decision because it's unlikely that he will attend a high school that offers football, unless we move to the burbs (not in the plan).

But I played rugby at NU and am quite fond of the sport. I believe that it is much safer than football, but that does not mean that rugby is safe. And the answer to that question depends, as you so aptly point out, on what level of risk is tolerable.

I'd like to see CTE research on pro rugby players before I make any real conclusions. For now, I'd be inclined to let my son play rugby.

I saw a study that discussed the probability of brain trauma for children playing football under the age of 12. If I can find the link, I'll attach it here. I think Rugby is safer (as was football in the old days) because of the lack of helmets. If you don't have a helmet, you aren't going to lead with your head, or attempt to make head to head contact.

 

[Hungry Jack]

I live about 30 miles from the Big South Fork. What time of year were you considering going? Really nice rapids in the Summer. Scenic watershed trails in other months.

No plans to go back yet, though it will be a good place to take Little Hungry for some well-rounded outdoor adventure in a few years.

We got really "lucky" (some might disagree) when we rafted, as a bunch or rain turned a 5-hour trip into a 3-hour trip. Several rapids were up to class 4. Mrs. Jack and I shared a small San Juan boat with a guide who had oarlocks. There was another group of high school kids in 2 rafts - 6 kids each. I think it was a Washtub Rapid where a giant haystack flipped the kids in front us. All I saw was their boat suddenly go vertical, and then dump the kids like a box of dolls. They did not look too happy.

It's a great area. I am surprised by how little known the area is, given its proximity to Nashville, Knoxville, Louisville, Lexington, Cincy, etc.

 

[Hungry Jack]

This is disturbing and sad.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Randle El wishes he had played baseball instead of football.

 

[Windy City Cat Fan]

Randle El wishes he had played baseball instead of football.

I can't of any reason why you would chose to play football over baseball or in ARE's case basketball too. The money, length of career, long term health impacts etc. all favore baseball

 

[Deeringfish]

Does anyone know if any statistics have been kept comparing concussion rates on various filed turfs? You can change the equipment and you can change the rules but with the big money in pro and college football, you can also change the playing surfaces. I would think grass produces a different speed of game than artificial turf and that new, softer and slower turfs could also be required.

 

[pawildcat_rivals209725]

"Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players'?


Really H.J.
Are you really as arrogant as this makes you sound? How do you think the issue is being received?

Yes, football is an integral part of Southern culture. Similar to "HOCKEY" in the northern states. We love the game but don't really get too fired up over hockey. Probably why the SEC has won 8 out of it's 10 Bowl games. Go figure.

Hockey does not have remotely the following in the North that football does in the South. It's more of a niche sport. Hockey fans are very passionate about the sport, while many other sports fans in the North couldn't care less. There are many more avid NFL and college football fans in the North than hockey fans. I say this as a fan of the Blackhawks, whom I believe just scored their 12th straight win by trouncing the Nashville Predators last night.

 

[mybrotha]

Pretty safe to say that football is integral to the culture of the South. Do UT fans and SEC fans in general have much of an opinion on the recent findings of research on the concussive brain injuries among NFL players? How is the issue being received by fans?

My personal feeling is that it offers substantial proof that sustained exposure to the sport incurs a high risk of brain damage. In other words, it beats your brain up pretty badly. I think it is very real.

Part of me thinks an earthquake will hit the NFL, but it will take about a decade. The other part thinks that there is SO much money at stake, there will always be a Faustian bargain in play.

My friend I'm afraid it's all too real. I've had multiple concussions in Hockey and as a former welterweight boxer I can't tell you how many times I was woozy or went home from the gym with headaches! There are times at the age of 56 now that I can't remember what I did earlier in the day. It's kind of scary sometimes.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Tyler Sash died of an accidental overdose at 27. Apparently the levels of CTE in his brain were off the charts.

 

[hdhntr1]

Funny that you mentioned boxing in your analogy, since my friends and I were recently discussing the future of football as we know it and the concensus was that football is heading down that same downward road. Sure it may ten or more years in the future but when CTE cause and affect become more readily known, only the underprivlidged and poor kids will play the game. The tide will begin to turn when high school programs can no longer support and pay for the insurance premiums needed to protect them from injury lawsuits. This will eventually effect college and pro football in the number of participants willing to sacrifice their future quality of life, as well as the costs associated with defending against and paying injured players. Don't know what will replace football as Americas #1 sport, maybe lacrosse or soccer as we've been told for years or baseball might once again become #1, we will see.

From what I understand it is the repeated injury that causes much of the problem and it is showing up in ex pro players who were in the league for quite a few years. But they have many more years of harder blows. while there still may be some issues up through college, I have yet to hear of the ex college player who has been affected.

 

[Cardiacagoan]

Without throwing it to google, have we exactly determined the definition of a concussion?

Is a concussion different in hockey as it is in football or boxing?

Is a concussion a "bell ringing", something that leads to a brief (1-2 second) blackout after a hit? Does it take you to be knocked out for a short period of time?

I am posing this because I was a strong safety in HS and College. I played every down of my 4 years in college. I have had numerous "bell rings" a game where I saw stars/black for a few seconds along with getting up after plays extremely dizzy.

I'm not a doctor, but an athlete that played the game. Everyone needs to understand exactly what constitutes the definition of a concussion. Is there something just under a concussion? Are there levels of concussions and should they be treated differently? Before we can't analyze every athlete that played a contact sport, the athlete needs to know what a concussion truly is to assist with any post-concussion treatment or analysis.

Do I feel football is dangerous and wouldn't play it again? No. Do I feel that I have cognitive side effects to playing, no. Can football lead to serious injuries? Absolutely.

Not all injuries are preventable (Matt Harris this year), but if you are taught proper technique and are mentally/physically ready to play, some injuries can be avoided.

I know the research is minimal at this point and this is not coming from the perspective of someone who played after college and did it for a living, but the people that I know who have played for a living in the NFL or professionally elsewhere have more issues with joints/ligaments than their heads.

 

[mybrotha]

Without throwing it to google, have we exactly determined the definition of a concussion?

Is a concussion different in hockey as it is in football or boxing?

Is a concussion a "bell ringing", something that leads to a brief (1-2 second) blackout after a hit? Does it take you to be knocked out for a short period of time?

I am posing this because I was a strong safety in HS and College. I played every down of my 4 years in college. I have had numerous "bell rings" a game where I saw stars/black for a few seconds along with getting up after plays extremely dizzy.

I'm not a doctor, but an athlete that played the game. Everyone needs to understand exactly what constitutes the definition of a concussion. Is there something just under a concussion? Are there levels of concussions and should they be treated differently? Before we can't analyze every athlete that played a contact sport, the athlete needs to know what a concussion truly is to assist with any post-concussion treatment or analysis.

Do I feel football is dangerous and wouldn't play it again? No. Do I feel that I have cognitive side effects to playing, no. Can football lead to serious injuries? Absolutely.

Not all injuries are preventable (Matt Harris this year), but if you are taught proper technique and are mentally/physically ready to play, some injuries can be avoided.

I know the research is minimal at this point and this is not coming from the perspective of someone who played after college and did it for a living, but the people that I know who have played for a living in the NFL or professionally elsewhere have more issues with joints/ligaments than their heads.

I have seen stars many times in my life, sparks I think describes them better for me though. But one concussion was documented because I was hospitalized. In that case, my mind was like a tv station with bad reception. I was looking across the ice and what I saw was bizarre! Vertical lines coming down through my vision etc. I'll never forget that game. My head hi the ice and the bottom of the boards at the same time and my helmet actually cracked. I finished the game but had no recollection of it afterwards. I had two more likely concussions after that that were diagnosed by my college trainer. As for boxing, that was more of just being woozy and going home with bad headaches. This mostly happened when I sparred with heavier guys to get used to stronger punches.

 

[polecat_rivals]

http://usafootball.com/blogs/health...ogist:-rewards-of-youth-sports-outweigh-risks

http://usafootball.com/blogs/health...ions-for-youth-football,-sets-no-starting-age

 

[Hungry Jack]

http://usafootball.com/blogs/health...ogist:-rewards-of-youth-sports-outweigh-risks

http://usafootball.com/blogs/health...ions-for-youth-football,-sets-no-starting-age

Not sure I buy this guy's reasoning. The issue is that, while we are probably better at diagnosing and treating concussions, it is not clear that concussions are the only source of CTE. In other words, does there have to be a recognizable acute brain injury (ie a concussion) for the damage to occur? And, of course, what is the acceptable level of risk?

We don't know the answers to these questions yet.

 

[mybrotha]

Not sure I buy this guy's reasoning. The issue is that, while we are probably better at diagnosing and treating concussions, it is not clear that concussions are the only source of CTE. In other words, does there have to be a recognizable acute brain injury (ie a concussion) for the damage to occur? And, of course, what is the acceptable level of risk?

We don't know the answers to these questions yet.

My take is simply that the brain isn't padded at all but for a thin viscous fluid around the extremity of the brain. Thus it simply doesn't need to be a concussed situation but rather over the course of time constant trauma to the brain. A concussion is the worst of the trauma, but consistent helmet to helmet and fist to head trauma adds up over time. As a former boxer it is sad for me to see and meet older guys who drool and can't remember much. As a former hockey player I felt for Bob Probert and what he went through. If you get a chance watch the YouTube on Bob, it's very sad.

 

[hdhntr1]

Not sure I buy this guy's reasoning. The issue is that, while we are probably better at diagnosing and treating concussions, it is not clear that concussions are the only source of CTE. In other words, does there have to be a recognizable acute brain injury (ie a concussion) for the damage to occur? And, of course, what is the acceptable level of risk?

We don't know the answers to these questions yet.

I would guess that CTE is probably more related to repeated blows whether those blows actually result in concussions or not. Concussions are probably extreme cases. And there are different levels of concussion. In addition, additional damage can occur if one is not allowed to fully recovered from the initial concussion. In the past, a lot of concussions were never really diagnosed as such. Bell rung, seeing stars etc might be examples of minor concussions I am not sure whether you actually have to be knocked out.

But overall, I would guess that the problem is probably more the result of a cumulative level of number and severity of hits coupled with if incomplete recovery after an initial concussion. And while most people never get to a level where CTE is an issue, Pro Football, Hockey etc players end up with the effect perhaps because they are involved for significantly longer with a multiple of the hits (and a lot harder) that a standard college player and below might experience.

THe question is, what is that threshhold? Is it generally something that can only be reached for most people if they extend years beyond college or don't recover fully from concussions before being hit again? Will more focus on technique, better vigulance, better equipment and Concussion protocal and the like do the job of keeping guys under the critical level of damage? First for college and then beyond? Or are hits in any number sufficient to cause the problem? If the latter is the case, not sure FB, wrestling or Hockey survive. Thais is why I asked the question if people that only played through college and not beyond have shown signs.

There are a lot of benefits for the players and as an example, a lot of our ex FB players have done pretty well. It would be a shame to see those benefits lost for future generations.

The hope is that is not the case and the issue can be minimized.

 

[Gladeskat]

I didn't read any links here but he variability in severity of CTE amongst former football players (zero symptoms of CTE to severe cases) suggests to me that there may be genetic or other organic differences between players which leave some players more susceptible to CTE than others.

 

[Hungry Jack]

AIG, the NFL's primary insurer, apparently is canceling its coverage of brain injury. Go figure.

 

[Ubermorgen]

AIG, the NFL's primary insurer, apparently is canceling its coverage of brain injury. Go figure.

Insurance that covers concussions is problematic for yout organizations as well... Pop Warner, etc. can't imagine what costs will be for colleges and high schools. I doubt high schools can afford to self-insure.

 

[Hungry Jack]

Insurance that covers concussions is problematic for yout organizations as well... Pop Warner, etc. can't imagine what costs will be for colleges and high schools. I doubt high schools can afford to self-insure.

Exactly. I think this might be the thing that kills off professional football--when insurers refuse to insure the game at the youth level, or rates become exorbitant.