PSU Thon Four Diamonds Fund

[_getmyjive11]

So you're saying that half of the money raised by Four Diamonds goes back to the University?

Do you think THAT is consistent with the "all of the money goes to HELP THE KIDS" message?

I think the one thing that has been demonstrated in this thread, pretty conclusively, is that the underlying claim of THON and its fundraising operation is, in fact, a lie.

Yes it is consistent because the endowment is used for the purposes set forth by the four diamonds fund. It cannot legally be used for anything else.

 

[Upstream]

Actually, I do - the Director of Oncology and Hematology at Jersey Shore Medical Center is a close friend of mine.

Jersey Shore Medical Center is a fine hospital, but it is hardly an academic medical research center. It is not surprising to see a sizable travel budget for a researcher who is also a dept head at an academic medical research center. Between attending medical conferences, presentation of research results, collaborative research meetings, and administrative meetings, there can be a lot of travel.

(Of course, just because travel may be legitimate, it still isn't direct patient support.)

 

[RU4Real]

Jersey Shore Medical Center is a fine hospital, but it is hardly an academic medical research center. It is not surprising to see a sizable travel budget for a researcher who is also a dept head at an academic medical research center. Between attending medical conferences, presentation of research results, collaborative research meetings, and administrative meetings, there can be a lot of travel.

(Of course, just because travel may be legitimate, it still isn't direct patient support.)

But that's rather my point - and, in fact, it's the point of this thread.

All of the external communications around THON have set the expectation that they're raising money to directly benefit kids with cancer.

Putting aside for a moment the fact that they neglect to tell you, even while panhandling in New Jersey, that they're only raising money for kids who live in Pennsylvania, the reality is that only a small percentage of the money raised directly benefits kids with cancer.

The rest - the majority - simply goes to support Penn State and the PS Hershey Children's Hospital.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong about trying to build up PSU's medical research arm using THON funds. PSUers raise the funds, why not use them at PSU. My only problem is the use of the generalization "For The Kids" and then raising money outside the state, outside the PSU community. If you raise money like that, you should spend the money in a similar fashion.

The students do a fantastic job raising money and is quite a model for community service that other universities could emulate.

So, the buckeye fan is wrong for pointing out how much better any number of research hospitals are then PSU-Hershey and the PSUers are wrong for calling out other schools fundraising abilities as if that is a defense for the legitimate criticisms about how THON funds are used.

 

[RU4Real]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong about trying to build up PSU's medical research arm using THON funds. PSUers raise the funds, why not use them at PSU. My only problem is the use of the generalization "For The Kids" and then raising money outside the state, outside the PSU community. If you raise money like that, you should spend the money in a similar fashion.

Right.

I look at it this way - I could set up a GoFundMe page to raise money to benefit my disabled child, then use that money to buy a Corvette, because he really likes fast cars. So... that benefits him, right? The THON thing is pretty much the same.

 

[_getmyjive11]

But that's rather my point - and, in fact, it's the point of this thread.

All of the external communications around THON have set the expectation that they're raising money to directly benefit kids with cancer.

Putting aside for a moment the fact that they neglect to tell you, even while panhandling in New Jersey, that they're only raising money for kids who live in Pennsylvania, the reality is that only a small percentage of the money raised directly benefits kids with cancer.

The rest - the majority - simply goes to support Penn State and the PS Hershey Children's Hospital.

It does benefit the children. Saying that money for research or for the Children's hospital doesn't benefit cancer patients is just wrong. It doesn't benefit the children in the way that you want it to benefit them so you have a problem with it. This again goes back to the fact that it is your dollar... if you don't like the way that PSU uses these funds then don't donate.

 

[jason21psu]

I haven't read every post because that would take too long and a lot of points seem to be brought up over and over but think this boils down to people that feel misled that FTK supports cancer research in addition to direct patient care. While I believe that research does directly benefit kids, I can understand if someone else doesn't, so I think we just need to agree to disagree on that and move on. I think there is also an undertone of not liking kids canning in NJ because the perception (and maybe reality) is none of the money goes to support children of NJ. I'm not sure what the demographics of the hospital are but would your concerns be allayed if you found that there was an approximately equal % of NJ children receiving care at Hershey as money raised in NJ?

I saw something in an earlier post that there about 450 patients that receive direct benefits from the 4 diamonds fund. I'm not sure what limits the number of patients HMC can serve but I would have to think it's facilities. i.e. there are only so many rooms for patients. So for the people that don't believe research directly benefits children would you feel OK if the surplus money was saved and used to build another hospital or an addition to accommodate more patients?

Final thought is, I feel like it is fine to ask questions and ask for transparency on how funds are used but to criticize how the money is used without evidence of impropriety I think is a little off. Some might just think it's semantics but I think there is a big difference between criticizing something and asking questions about it.

 

[_getmyjive11]

Right.

I look at it this way - I could set up a GoFundMe page to raise money to benefit my disabled child, then use that money to buy a Corvette, because he really likes fast cars. So... that benefits him, right? The THON thing is pretty much the same.

Oh please, that's not the same at all. The funds go toward pediatric cancer research, pediatric oncology doctors, pediatric therapy specialists, the pediatric cancer wing at Hershey.... all after paying for any kind of expenses that these children have. All funds go towards the fight against pediatric cancer. You are really stretching here. Just say that you don't like the way that PSU is properly using the funds and leave it at that.

 

[jason21psu]

Right.

I look at it this way - I could set up a GoFundMe page to raise money to benefit my disabled child, then use that money to buy a Corvette, because he really likes fast cars. So... that benefits him, right? The THON thing is pretty much the same.

This is absolutely a false equivalency. Either you know this and have an agenda or you believe it because of your agenda.

 

[RU4Real]

It does benefit the children. Saying that money for research or for the Children's hospital doesn't benefit cancer patients is just wrong. It doesn't benefit the children in the way that you want it to benefit them so you have a problem with it. This again goes back to the fact that it is your dollar... if you don't like the way that PSU uses these funds then don't donate.

I think you might need a hospital. You fail to get the point of this thread, which is that THON and Four Diamonds are not forthcoming with respect to how the donated funds are directed. That's no accident - the organizers and administrators know damn well that if they minimized the "FOR THE KIDS!" marketing message and were more transparent about the fact that most of the money simply goes to support the hospital, not as many people would donate.

Not to mention the fact that if all the kids panhandling in New Jersey were to tell people that none of the money benefits New Jersey residents, that gravy train would dry up pretty quickly, too.

 

[_getmyjive11]

I think you might need a hospital. You fail to get the point of this thread, which is that THON and Four Diamonds are not forthcoming with respect to how the donated funds are directed. That's no accident - the organizers and administrators know damn well that if they minimized the "FOR THE KIDS!" marketing message and were more transparent about the fact that most of the money simply goes to support the hospital, not as many people would donate.

Not to mention the fact that if all the kids panhandling in New Jersey were to tell people that none of the money benefits New Jersey residents, that gravy train would dry up pretty quickly, too.

Yes they are forthcoming, it's right on their websites and mission statements! You are caught up on the slogan "for the kids" and are ignoring everything else. Even though I could easily make a case that "for the kids" is acceptable, the fact is that both THON and the Four Diamonds Fund clearly states that the funds will be used to support things other than direct patient care. It's only not transparent if you ignore their information.

 

[ralpieE]

I think you might need a hospital. You fail to get the point of this thread, which is that THON and Four Diamonds are not forthcoming with respect to how the donated funds are directed. That's no accident - the organizers and administrators know damn well that if they minimized the "FOR THE KIDS!" marketing message and were more transparent about the fact that most of the money simply goes to support the hospital, not as many people would donate.

Not to mention the fact that if all the kids panhandling in New Jersey were to tell people that none of the money benefits New Jersey residents, that gravy train would dry up pretty quickly, too.

Utter nonsense.

 

[RU4Real]

Yes they are forthcoming, it's right on their websites and mission statements! You are caught up on the slogan "for the kids" and are ignoring everything else. Even though I could easily make a case that "for the kids" is acceptable, the fact is that both THON and the Four Diamonds Fund clearly states that the funds will be used to support things other than direct patient care. It's only not transparent if you ignore their information.

The overwhelming majority of people who donate don't know what Four Diamonds is. All they see is this:

THON raises about $13 million a year, Four Diamonds totals out at about $16 million.

Of that money, approximate $4600 per patient (428 patients) was provided in direct benefits in 2013.

 

[ralpieE]

Gotta love hatred.

 

[RU4Real]

It's got nothing to do with hatred. Unfortunately PSU fans are inexorably trapped in their bunker mentality.

The fact, the fundamental nature of the criticism here, is that THON/Four Diamonds, etc., is specifically constructed so as to disallow transparency.

Here's the easy fix - change all the customer-facing materials so that they read, simply, "All funds benefit the Penn State Hershey Children's Hospital".

That, per the various institutional constructs as supported by all the financial statements, is the simple truth.

 

[Jersey_lion]

are we really arguing over money that either helps families directly affected by childhood cancer or that goes to research for childhood cancer?! Is that really what is happening here? If you don't like that PSU students are raising money for THON in NJ then don't donate...any money raised to fight cancer helps PEOPLE no matter what state they are in, the fact that you are mad about this is insane.

 

[RUScrew85]

Gotta love hatred.

Since you can't win on the facts you accuse Hatred. I think we know your political affiliations now too.

 

[Ole Cabbagehead]

I haven't read every post because that would take too long and a lot of points seem to be brought up over and over but think this boils down to people that feel misled that FTK supports cancer research in addition to direct patient care. While I believe that research does directly benefit kids, I can understand if someone else doesn't, so I think we just need to agree to disagree on that and move on. I think there is also an undertone of not liking kids canning in NJ because the perception (and maybe reality) is none of the money goes to support children of NJ. I'm not sure what the demographics of the hospital are but would your concerns be allayed if you found that there was an approximately equal % of NJ children receiving care at Hershey as money raised in NJ?

I saw something in an earlier post that there about 450 patients that receive direct benefits from the 4 diamonds fund. I'm not sure what limits the number of patients HMC can serve but I would have to think it's facilities. i.e. there are only so many rooms for patients. So for the people that don't believe research directly benefits children would you feel OK if the surplus money was saved and used to build another hospital or an addition to accommodate more patients?

Final thought is, I feel like it is fine to ask questions and ask for transparency on how funds are used but to criticize how the money is used without evidence of impropriety I think is a little off. Some might just think it's semantics but I think there is a big difference between criticizing something and asking questions about it.

That's exactly my issue. Their surplus over the amount needed to help patients is enormous. If they really wanted to be FTK, they should be adding beds, not building a huge endowment to pay researchers and administrators and expand PSU's research capabilities and prestige. But it is not FTK, and it is not, by and large helping kids fight cancer... it is helping researchers research cancer. Also, 0% of the money benefits NJ residents -- it says in the materials attached in this thread that all patients must be PA residents.

Of course anyone reasonable can see there is nothing truly improper about what they are doing. The money is undoubtedly going to a good cause, because research is important too. Its just that the slogan is clearly designed to trigger a certain emotion, and that emotion it triggers, that surely everyone can afford a few bucks to help sick kids, is not the reality when only a $0.10 of every dollar goes to that purpose. If the signs said Support PSU Pediatric Cancer Research I think we all know THON wouldn't be what it is today.

 

[ralpieE]

Since you can't win on the facts you accuse Hatred. I think we know your political affiliations now too.

I did win on the facts. You lost.

Therefore, "hatred".

 

[RU4Real]

are we really arguing over money that either helps families directly affected by childhood cancer or that goes to research for childhood cancer?! Is that really what is happening here? If you don't like that PSU students are raising money for THON in NJ then don't donate...any money raised to fight cancer helps PEOPLE no matter what state they are in, the fact that you are mad about this is insane.

That's actually not true, unless you can point to specific advances that have resulted from the research dollars which, in turn, benefit cancer patients worldwide. I can't find anything that fits that description. Lacking such, then my earlier statement as well as the implicit message from PS-Hershey's annual reports seems to be largely correct - the majority of the money raised is used to support the Penn State Hershey Children's Hospital as a facility.

 

[ralpieE]

That's actually not true, unless you can point to specific advances that have resulted from the research dollars which, in turn, benefit cancer patients worldwide. I can't find anything that fits that description. Lacking such, then my earlier statement as well as the implicit message from PS-Hershey's annual reports seems to be largely correct - the majority of the money raised is used to support the Penn State Hershey Children's Hospital as a facility.

Made up.

 

[RU4Real]

Made up.

You can't "make up" an absence of fact. The burden of proof is on you with regard to your rather generalized statement.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Here is how it is done transparently and properly. The Spielman Fund is probably the closest thing that OSU has to THON/Hershey. Notice the transparency about exactly what the fund does and the two separate links to donate to research or to patient care.

http://cancer.osu.edu/giving-back/ways-to-donate/stefanie-spielman-fund-for-breast-cancer-research

And I'm sure if I went to hundreds of other cancer charity funds at a hundred different universities, I would find the same honesty and transparency.

And FWIW, there is a difference in the quality and impact of research being conducted and the talent of the researchers at a CCC than at Hershey. I'm sure that Hershey does fine work, but let's be honest, anyone there talented enough to get tapped on the shoulder by a Pitt, a Sloan-Kettering (the Gold Standard) or an Ohio State is going to be packing their bags.

 

[ATIOH]

FWIW, my friend (and the team he leads) is one of the top researchers in the world for two types of cancer at Sloan Kettering. He's forced to attend conferences around the world. Travel is a requirement in this field.

That doesn't change the fact that Four Diamond's financial disclosures are garbage.

Also - If a chair is being funded to support an administrator and her administration team, then it seems like any analysis should add that expense to overhead. Which makes the 6% and 12% figures understated.

 

[_getmyjive11]

The overwhelming majority of people who donate don't know what Four Diamonds is. All they see is this:

THON raises about $13 million a year, Four Diamonds totals out at about $16 million.

Of that money, approximate $4600 per patient (428 patients) was provided in direct benefits in 2013.

Are you saying that the donations did not help kids?

Seriously, you look like a real ******* in this thread. "Only" $4600 per patient. Like that is insignificant. And then you ignore the fact that they are getting care by great doctors (funded by THON) in a great facility (funded by THON) with other great therapeutic care outside of the typical cancer treatment (funded my THON). Then, you have research working towards finding a cure or new ways to fight the disease (funded by THON).

Again, if you don't like it then don't donate, but do not try and claim that the funds are not being used properly. They certainly are.

 

[ralpieE]

You can't "make up" an absence of fact. The burden of proof is on you with regard to your rather generalized statement.

Your urban legend isn't cutting it.

Totally false.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

This is a joke. Why isn't this crack investigative message board group investing and dissecting the RU thon and Embrace Kids Foundation? Why aren't they obsessing over any other charitable endeavors?

Gee I wonder why...


(And to be clear I'm not criticizing Embrace Kids from everything I know they are a great organization just like Four Diamonds - merely using them for a very obvious comparison)

 

[RU4Real]

Are you saying that the donations did not help kids?

Seriously, you look like a real ******* in this thread. "Only" $4600 per patient. Like that is insignificant. And then you ignore the fact that they are getting care by great doctors (funded by THON) in a great facility (funded by THON) with other great therapeutic care outside of the typical cancer treatment (funded my THON). Then, you have research working towards finding a cure or new ways to fight the disease (funded by THON).

Again, if you don't like it then don't donate, but do not try and claim that the funds are not being used properly. They certainly are.

"Again", I think you might be retarded.

Nobody is debating the definition of "proper" vs. "improper". What's being debated is the fact that the THON organizers, promoters and their Four Diamonds counterparts are messaging their activities to target donors so as to give the distinct impression that all the money donated goes directly to kids with cancer.

Which, as we all know, is not true.

And incidentally, none of the things you boast of as being "funded by THON" are, in fact, "funded by THON". The hospital's total revenue in 2013 was $1.6 billion. That means that the total distributed to the hospital by Four Diamonds ($15.5 million) equates to less than 1%.

 

[PhilaPhans]

I think this thread has run its course. I'm going to lock it for now. I just ask that in future threads that people keep it civil and remember that while PSU and other fans are welcome to contribute on this site, they should remember that they're on a much shorter leash.