OT: Problems in UCLA Locker Room

[RUDivision]

That’s not his point and I think you know it. A lot of the things Cronin said are probably true. That doesn’t mean he should say them publicly.

There are some great coaches that act like jackasses. Such as Hurley or hell, Bobby Knight. Some of you guys make the mistake of thinking they are great coaches *because* they act like jackasses.

Sometimes you have to send a message publicly. Sometimes you hope to have the team rally and find common ground.

Cronin has been to 14 NCAA in 21 years and a final four.

Hurley and knight well their championship DNA speaks for itself. Floux you can take the time to post their winning percentages and National Championships! (Plural)

Your usually a numbers spreadsheet guy this argument by you is out of character and poorly thought out.

Pike is bag of charcoal soaked in lighter fluid walking through a match factory

 

[bac2therac]

23 months ago we landed Ace and Dylan because we were one of the best teams in college basketball.

You can't have it both ways. You can't kill Pike for not winning with Dylan and Ace and not give him credit for lifting the program from the dead and putting it in the place where Ace and Dylan would come here. Pike got the #2 and #3 rated recruit to come to Rutgers. People are upset with the losing and have forgotten what has been accomplished.

we landed them because it was one of the few places both could play together and showcase their skills for the nba rather than have to be concerned about the logo on the jersey


but your argument does not make sense, plenty of coaches have some success, recruit well and then fail

we now are going to have 3 years of not making the tourney, sure he shouldnt be fired after this season but next season looking like a sub 500 year....now if you give him another year and its 5 years without a ncaa..to me that is failure and firing no question...the argument is going to be about cutting your losses after next year or the year after..no one is sitting through another 4 year rebuild with top 400 recruits here if thats even possible in the nil age

 

[RUDivision]

23 months ago we landed Ace and Dylan because we were one of the best teams in college basketball.

You can't have it both ways. You can't kill Pike for not winning with Dylan and Ace and not give him credit for lifting the program from the dead and putting it in the place where Ace and Dylan would come here. Pike got the #2 and #3 rated recruit to come to Rutgers. People are upset with the losing and have forgotten what has been accomplished.

Very valid and so were clear. I was done with Pike when he lost the Houston game in the NCAA. Good man , great defensive mind, ZERO offensive mind.(9 years and hadn’t hired anyone to help). He has quietly gutted the program over the last 5 years.

He got Ace because his godfather is an assistant coach. He got Dylan because of Ace and his less talented brother got a chance here and play close to home. Lets not forget the $$$$.

I wanted him fired before his extension. Completely understand that he deserved one just not to the length Hobbs gave.

This year further proves it wasn’t talent holding Pike back it was Pike holding Pike back.

He’s done ! Any excuse to letting him stay will have us below where he took over and our reputation gutted.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

That’s not his point and I think you know it. A lot of the things Cronin said are probably true. That doesn’t mean he should say them publicly.

There are some great coaches that act like jackasses. Such as Hurley or hell, Bobby Knight. Some of you guys make the mistake of thinking they are great coaches *because* they act like jackasses.

No matter how people act.. successful or not.. I sometimes think you have to figure that they are like this for their own reasons. That "this" is what they need to be who they are.. to achieve however much.. or however little.. they have achieved. It is how they get by.

I think you can give them some leeway.. or not.. if that's what you need to be you... to do your thing.

 

[fluoxetine]

Hurley and knight well their championship DNA speaks for itself. Floux you can take the time to post their winning percentages and National Championships! (Plural)

Right I literally said in my post they were great coaches. That doesn't mean that every aspect of their personality helped them.

Shaq was a great basketball player. It wasn't because of his bad free throw shooting. Your argument here is something like "of course bad free throw shooting is good, look at Shaq, he's great and he is bad at free throws".

No matter how people act.. successful or not.. I sometimes think you have to figure that they are like this for their own reasons. That "this" is what they need to be who they are.. to achieve however much.. or however little.. they have achieved. It is how they get by.

I think you can give them some leeway.. or not.. if that's what you need to be you... to do your thing.

Yeah I mean I'm not suggesting Cronin should be run out of town for those comments or whatever. And if they were truly a strategy as opposed to just a tantrum then have at it I guess. At the end of the day he's insulting basketball players in their capacity as basketball players; it's not the end of the world.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Very valid and so were clear. I was done with Pike when he lost the Houston game in the NCAA. Good man , great defensive mind, ZERO offensive mind.(9 years and hadn’t hired anyone to help). He has quietly gutted the program over the last 5 years.

He got Ace because his godfather is an assistant coach. He got Dylan because of Ace and his less talented brother got a chance here and play close to home. Lets not forget the $$$$.

I wanted him fired before his extension. Completely understand that he deserved one just not to the length Hobbs gave.

This year further proves it wasn’t talent holding Pike back it was Pike holding Pike back.

He’s done ! Any excuse to letting him stay will have us below where he took over and our reputation gutted.

I think I may put you on ignore. To say you wanted him fired after the Houston game.

 

[fluoxetine]

I think I may put you on ignore. To say you wanted him fired after the Houston game.

I’ve never been entirely sure if this guy is serious lol.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Have you guys ever seen a coach work a ref and then get rewarded with a call? I have.

Have you ever seen Pike do that?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Have you guys ever seen a coach work a ref and then get rewarded with a call? I have.

Have you ever seen Pike do that?

yes

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I’ve never been entirely sure if this guy is serious lol.

I need to use ignore more....so do you actually. I have seen you fight with people on my ignore list.

 

[RUDivision]

I think I may put you on ignore. To say you wanted him fired after the Houston game.

All fair but that game for me is all I needed to see. He was out coached panicked and cost us a real chance to get to the final four.

I knew then he reached the level he could and would never get us further. For some that was enough and buys him a decade of failure. I want to win and win consistently. He deserves a lot of credit for that one class and what he accomplished but it’s over.

The numerous amounts of games he has cost us since simply by inept coaching has grown. His inability to build a team has become more apparent.

You can provide any and all of the excuses needed. It’s a results world and Pike is failing miserably.

Pike and pike alone said the Rutgers standard is making the NCAA tournament. Well that is not on the horizon ever for him.

It’s over

 

[RUDivision]

I need to use ignore more....so do you actually. I have seen you fight with people on my ignore list.

Let me know when I say something not factual. You also disappeared after losing your “luck “ argument.

It’s ok boys continue to read your analytics and when you want help understanding them let me know

 

[RUDivision]

I think I may put you on ignore. To say you wanted him fired after the Houston game.

Do us a favor watch Pike blow that game and then chart his performance since that game.

Tell me why keeping him was a good idea?

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Do us a favor watch Pike blow that game and then chart his performance since that game.

Tell me why keeping him was a good idea?

Because Eddie Jordan was one of the worst hires ever.. though done in a bit of a self-created emergency. The only reason Mike Rice had to go was to protect higher-ups from attacks which came anyway. He did something wrong.. was assessed a penalty and corrective measures which he adhered to.. and then got tossed aside because of media attention. We shoulda went the UNC f-you-all route.. this is handled.. this is over. All our lawyers do is recommend folding on every issue.. paying out everyone.. including their fees, of course.

 

[RUDivision]

Because Eddie Jordan was one of the worst hires ever.. though done in a bit of a self-created emergency. The only reason Mike Rice had to go was to protect higher-ups from attacks which came anyway. He did something wrong.. was assessed a penalty and corrective measures which he adhered to.. and then got tossed aside because of media attention. We shoulda went the UNC f-you-all route.. this is handled.. this is over. All our lawyers do is recommend folding on every issue.. paying out everyone.. including their fees, of course.

So accept failure because previous regimes failed but did it with less class?

 

[fluoxetine]

Do us a favor watch Pike blow that game and then chart his performance since that game.

Tell me why keeping him was a good idea?

I know it’s human nature but this thing where people do not credit a coach with getting the lead and then blame him for losing the lead is so weird. Losing a close game to Houston was not a failure, and getting a lead doesn’t make it any worse.

 

[bac2therac]

I know it’s human nature but this thing where people do not credit a coach with getting the lead and then blame him for losing the lead is so weird. Losing a close game to Houston was not a failure, and getting a lead doesn’t make it any worse.

He had his team take the air out of the ball..a factor in the loss

 

[fluoxetine]

He had his team take the air out of the ball..a factor in the loss

Nah, taking the air out of the ball was the correct strategy and one that virtually any coach would’ve used.

 

[RUDivision]

I know it’s human nature but this thing where people do not credit a coach with getting the lead and then blame him for losing the lead is so weird. Losing a close game to Houston was not a failure, and getting a lead doesn’t make it any worse.

Floux the best part about sports is there is a defined energy and loser. In game decisions contribute to taking a lead or losing the lead. At the end of the day he LOST that game . No arguing or excuses or metrics needed. He lost it

 

[RUDivision]

Nah, taking the air out of the ball was the correct strategy and one that virtually any coach would’ve used.

Lolololololololollikololollollil

He lost in what world was it correct?

Omg lol

 

[fluoxetine]

Floux the best part about sports is there is a defined energy and loser. In game decisions contribute to taking a lead or losing the lead. At the end of the day he LOST that game . No arguing or excuses or metrics needed. He lost it

Yes, he lost, but the manner of losing didn’t make it worse.

Lolololololololollikololollollil

He lost in what world was it correct?

Omg lol

Do you think it is impossible to lose while employing the correct strategy?

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

So accept failure because previous regimes failed but did it with less class?

yeah.. that is what I suspect. Pike was sooooooooooooo much better than what we had he clearly showed he was a good basketball coach.

The difference today.. clearly, I think.. is NIL. NIL enters the college sports world and good coaches have to adjust. Who knows who will end up being a "good coach" in this new world?

I think we should give him time to adjust... unless, of course, this season stains him with failure and that prevents him from being able to attract the talent that he needs to win here. How does anyone think they have the ability to gauge that? We also do not know how the end of those CoVid years of eligibility will play out.

It would also be near impossible to pick a replacement candidate. You'd probably have to overpay for a hot name.. and that would require rediculous contract protections for Rutgers and lock us in.. with zero guarantee of success.

It is a new and scary and uncertain world.

 

[RUDivision]

Yes, he lost, but the manner of losing didn’t make it worse.



Do you think it is impossible to lose while employing the correct strategy?

Those are completely counter intuitive.

If you lost the strategy was not correct! If you executed the correct strategy then you would have won.

If you want to argue Monmouth could implement the correct strategy to beat Duke and lose then ok:

If we are discussing evenly matched tournament teams that you make a conscious decision in game that costs you a win? Then not sure how that applys.

Sometimes you have to be aware of the moment and emotion of that specific game or moment. Pike is definitely not that guy.

It’s ok he lost that game ever RU fan knows why. We gave him more bites at the apple which he deserved.

The strategy he imply’s now has made us the laughing stock of college basketball.

 

[bac2therac]

Nah, taking the air out of the ball was the correct strategy and one that virtually any coach would’ve used.

they dont do this in the ncaa tourney...winning coaches dont

 

[RUChoppin]

yeah.. that is what I suspect. Pike was sooooooooooooo much better than what we had he clearly showed he was a good basketball coach.

The difference today.. clearly, I think.. is NIL. NIL enters the college sports world and good coaches have to adjust. Who knows who will end up being a "good coach" in this new world?

I think we should give him time to adjust... unless, of course, this season stains him with failure and that prevents him from being able to attract the talent that he needs to win here. How does anyone think they have the ability to gauge that? We also do not know how the end of those CoVid years of eligibility will play out.

It would also be near impossible to pick a replacement candidate. You'd probably have to overpay for a hot name.. and that would require rediculous contract protections for Rutgers and lock us in.. with zero guarantee of success.

It is a new and scary and uncertain world.

Not simply NIL. NIL just added some sweetener on top of the major changes to transfer rules.

Go back to when Pike arrived at Rutgers.... if a player wanted to transfer, he had to use a redshirt year and could only transfer one time as an undergrad (see: Young, Jacob) or he had to have used a redshirt year at his prior stop and gained a degree (see: Gettys, CJ). If he wanted to transfer within most conferences he had to sit out two and lose a year of eligibility on top of the redshirt year (this was very rare). Also, if he decided to transfer, he needed permission from his current school, and limits could be placed by his current school on where he could land (e.g., no rivals, no in conference, no one on the schedule for the next 1-2 years, etc). He also had to make it known to schools he wanted to transfer to on his own - there wasn't some live database with every player who had left their former school and was looking for a new home.

Now transferring is much much much easier and more streamlined. A player wants to leave, he doesn't even need to tell his coach if he doesn't want to - and he could have an offer from another school (with an NIL commitment on the table) before his coach even gets a chance to talk to him face to face.

 

[bac2therac]

Floux the best part about sports is there is a defined energy and loser. In game decisions contribute to taking a lead or losing the lead. At the end of the day he LOST that game . No arguing or excuses or metrics needed. He lost it

he thinks that guarding and not guarding the perimeter doesnt make a difference for whether the 3 pointer goes in

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

he thinks that guarding and not guarding the perimeter doesnt make a difference for whether the 3 pointer goes in

I would be interested to see a stat comparison of open threes to challenged threes and to include fouls and freethrows... and maybe even blow-bys by going out to defend teh three at teh expense of stopping penetration by the shooter.

what that means is.. maybe he has a point.. I don't know and maybe no one here knows

 

[bac2therac]

I would be interested to see a stat comparison of open threes to challenged threes and to include fouls and freethrows... and maybe even blow-bys by going out to defend teh three at teh expense of stopping penetration by the shooter.

what that means is.. maybe he has a point.. I don't know and maybe no one here knows

why defend any shot

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

why defend any shot

why pretend you addressed the subject, a subject YOU brought up.. defending teh three.. with that response?

To defend the three or not?

 

[bac2therac]

why pretend you addressed the subject, a subject YOU brought up.. defending teh three.. with that response?

because its another thing that Flux thinks doesnt matter....he thinks taking the air out of the ball while winning under 5-7 minutes is the right move because stats say so, computers do not determine games. Any who has actually watched basketball knows the danger of what happens when you start to run clock and not being aggressive and do not stick to game plan. He is right, coaches do it but as you go further in the tourney you see the ones who dont are the ones who are advancing.,

last years Nevada collapse up 17 over Dayton in the NCAA tourney with 7 minutes was a prime example of that.

 

[RUChoppin]

because its another thing that Flux thinks doesnt matter....he thinks taking the air out of the ball while winning under 5-7 minutes is the right move because stats say so, computers do not determine games. Any who has actually watched basketball knows the danger of what happens when you start to run clock and not being aggressive and do not stick to game plan. He is right, coaches do it but as you go further in the tourney you see the ones who dont are the ones who are advancing.,

last years Nevada collapse up 17 over Dayton in the NCAA tourney with 7 minutes was a prime example of that.

If I remember correctly, fluox's point was that perimeter defense's purpose is to limit the number of 3PA... but that it doesn't have a lot to do with 3P%. A team that averages 38% from the arc will have normal game-to-game statistical variance... but you can pressure the arc to limit them to 10 3PA instead of 25 3PA, forcing more 2PA instead.

 

[fluoxetine]

Those are completely counter intuitive.

If you lost the strategy was not correct! If you executed the correct strategy then you would have won.

What do you think happens if two coaches face each other and they both deploy the correct strategy? Does the game go into a never ending series of overtimes? Does reality itself simply implode?

 

[RUDivision]

What do you think happens if two coaches face each other and they both deploy the correct strategy? Does the game go into a never ending series of overtimes? Does reality itself simply implode?

No also a good question! Each coaches strategy is established to highlight its own teams strengths and take advantage of its opponents weakness. The coach who can have its team excecute its strategy more effectively wins. Of course outliers exist!

 

[fluoxetine]

If I remember correctly, fluox's point was that perimeter defense's purpose is to limit the number of 3PA... but that it doesn't have a lot to do with 3P%. A team that averages 38% from the arc will have normal game-to-game statistical variance... but you can pressure the arc to limit them to 10 3PA instead of 25 3PA, forcing more 2PA instead.

Yes, it’s this. A contested three pointer of course goes in less than an open one. But outside of endgame desperation situations people basically only take open threes. So perimeter defense is much better measured by how many attempts are taken by the opponent rather than what percentage of them are made.

This is not an idea I have come up with myself; Kenpom for example has a blog post on the subject.

 

[fluoxetine]

they dont do this in the ncaa tourney...winning coaches dont

because its another thing that Flux thinks doesnt matter....he thinks taking the air out of the ball while winning under 5-7 minutes is the right move because stats say so, computers do not determine games. Any who has actually watched basketball knows the danger of what happens when you start to run clock and not being aggressive and do not stick to game plan. He is right, coaches do it but as you go further in the tourney you see the ones who dont are the ones who are advancing.,

last years Nevada collapse up 17 over Dayton in the NCAA tourney with 7 minutes was a prime example of that.

(1) Slowing the game down when you have a late lead is not “deviating from the game plan” it is part of the game plan.

(2) in any sport that uses a clock you obviously want to waste time in a situation where you are leading towards the end of the game. I don’t need stats to tell me this it’s just basic logic

(3) the fact that occasionally teams lose when employing this strategy is not evidence that it’s a bad strategy

If you want to argue he did it slightly too early or whatever it’s fine, I don’t have a strong opinion on that. It’s not the point. The point is he was coaching the team both when it built the lead and when it lost it; the result was a closely fought loss to a 2-seed. This was not a result anyone would’ve said was that terrible before the game; you guys just threw a tantrum because you had convinced yourselves we were going to the sweet 16 only to have it ripped away from you.

 

[RUDivision]

Yes, it’s this. A contested three pointer of course goes in less than an open one. But outside of endgame desperation situations people basically only take open threes. So perimeter defense is much better measured by how many attempts are taken by the opponent rather than what percentage of them are made.

This is not an idea I have come up with myself; Kenpom for example has a blog post on the subject.

Not arguing just a question for clarification.

So an open 3, a kick out, long rebound, logo 3, defended not defended. Nothing of that matters?
They normalize it all under the umbrella of number taken regardless of the defense played?

 

[fluoxetine]

Not arguing just a question for clarification.

So an open 3, a kick out, long rebound, logo 3, defended not defended. Nothing of that matters?
They normalize it all under the umbrella of number taken regardless of the defense played?

Not really sure what you’re asking. If you’re asking something along the lines of “do you think literally every three point attempt has exactly the same probability of going in?” then:

(1) no
(2) I’ve never said anything like that
(3) this is why I doubt your sincerity

 

[RUDivision]

(1) Slowing the game down when you have a late lead is not “deviating from the game plan” it is part of the game plan.

(2) in any sport that uses a clock you obviously want to waste time in a situation where you are leading towards the end of the game. I don’t need stats to tell me this it’s just basic logic

(3) the fact that occasionally teams lose when employing this strategy is not evidence that it’s a bad strategy

If you want to argue he did it slightly too early or whatever it’s fine, I don’t have a strong opinion on that. It’s not the point. The point is he was coaching the team both when it built the lead and when it lost it; the result was a closely fought loss to a 2-seed. This was not a result anyone would’ve said was that terrible before the game; you guys just threw a tantrum because you had convinced yourselves we were going to the sweet 16 only to have it ripped away from you.

Once again fair on paper.
We are always a poor offensive team and had all of the momentum running the floor and struggle to score under pike.

Going 4 corners that early took the momentum and life out of the team. He panicked. In that situation you step on their throats and put it out of reach.

He had a strategy and he executed it and he was wrong.

 

[RUDivision]

Not really sure what you’re asking. If you’re asking something along the lines of “do you think literally every three point attempt has exactly the same probability of going in?” then:

(1) no
(2) I’ve never said anything like that
(3) this is why I doubt your sincerity

Sorry I am asking more about KenPom and do they look at like that? I can’t see just saying shot attempts as a valid way to calculate defense

 

[fluoxetine]

Once again fair on paper.
We are always a poor offensive team and had all of the momentum running the floor and struggle to score under pike.

If anything this makes it a better strategy. It’s not like there is some high octane offense you are disrupting by stalling. It works well with the rockfight style.

Going 4 corners that early took the momentum and life out of the team. He panicked. In that situation you step on their throats and put it out of reach.

He had a strategy and he executed it and he was wrong.

Nah. The players failed to execute down the stretch.