OT: Phil Mickelson

[Ty Webb_rivals67856]

I realize that. Maybe you should realize that they are not employees. They are 1099 workers who the PGA says they can't make any other income from any other source without their approval. It is why the DOJ has opened up an investigation on the PGA Tour.

But let's note, the PGA knew this investigation was coming and precedent from the FTC investigation in the 90s over similar gripes resulted in no action against the Tour. It was Norman, again, back then stirring the pot trying to create the World Golf Tour. The FTC looked into it but nothing ever came of it. Antitrust laws haven't changed so one shouldn't assume the DOJ sniffing around will amount to anything (not saying you believe this).

The biggest issue I saw a sports lawyer state that will have to be overcome will be LIV or the LIV golfers proving real damages due to the anti-competitive claim they are making. Sure, some lost sponsors but the big signing bonuses more than made up for that, the purses are larger than the PGA Tour and everyone is guaranteed winnings each week.

I suspect if this ever (more likely when this) gets to a trial, it's going to be downright fascinating to see all the twists and turns here.

 

[MADHAT1]

I realize that. Maybe you should realize that they are not employees. They are 1099 workers who the PGA says they can't make any other income from any other source without their approval. It is why the DOJ has opened up an investigation on the PGA Tour.

My putting in "ndependent contractors" in my message was acknowledging they aren't PGA employees.
As for investigation by the DOJ, all it takes is a complaint to get the DOJ to look into the accusation
I wouldn't expect the DOJ to ignore any complaint about something that the media has been covering and making headlines.
Years ago the PGA was investigated for just about the same thing and the investigation was dropped.
I expect the same now because nonindependent contractors are hired and fired by the will of the company they work for and not protected by a contractual agreement that gives them a right to be employed
LIV players are the face of the LIV tour and the PGA doesn't have to allow those LIV representatives to represent them as well.

By the way, does signing on with the LIV Tour keep independent contractor classification.
If so why did the LIV Tour do this:
>Norman’s circuit prevented Northern Ireland’s Graeme McDowell from playing in the Horizon Irish Open. Apparently, this notion of his doesn’t work both ways.
The circumstances of Graeme McDowell, who signed with LIV Golf, indicate that Norman isn’t allowing players to freely go and play elsewhere..<
>Had McDowell still been an independent contractor, do you think he would’ve missed his homeland’s national open? When he was growing up, do you think he dreamed of winning the Irish Open or a 54-hole shotgun start in Portland?<
https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/07/05/schupak-liv-golfers-free-agency-employees-greag-norman/

That in itself blows the doors off the LIV's claim the PGA is impeding LIV players ability to work where they want to.

 

[WhiteBus]

But let's note, the PGA knew this investigation was coming and precedent from the FTC investigation in the 90s over similar gripes resulted in no action against the Tour. It was Norman, again, back then stirring the pot trying to create the World Golf Tour. The FTC looked into it but nothing ever came of it. Antitrust laws haven't changed so one shouldn't assume the DOJ sniffing around will amount to anything (not saying you believe this).

The biggest issue I saw a sports lawyer state that will have to be overcome will be LIV or the LIV golfers proving real damages due to the anti-competitive claim they are making. Sure, some lost sponsors but the big signing bonuses more than made up for that, the purses are larger than the PGA Tour and everyone is guaranteed winnings each week.

I suspect if this ever (more likely when this) gets to a trial, it's going to be downright fascinating to see all the twists and turns here.

If you think this investigation is similar to the last investigation you are just reading PGA press releases.

 

[WhiteBus]

My putting in "ndependent contractors" in my message was acknowledging they aren't PGA employees.
As for investigation by the DOJ, all it takes is a complaint to get the DOJ to look into the accusation
I wouldn't expect the DOJ to ignore any complaint about something that the media has been covering and making headlines.
Years ago the PGA was investigated for just about the same thing and the investigation was dropped.
I expect the same now because nonindependent contractors are hired and fired by the will of the company they work for and not protected by a contractual agreement that gives them a right to be employed
LIV players are the face of the LIV tour and the PGA doesn't have to allow those LIV representatives to represent them as well.
By the way, does signing on with the

Believe what you want. But let's start here. It has nothing to do with PGA sponsors. Nothing! It all about control.

 

[MADHAT1]

If you think this investigation is similar to the last investigation you are just reading PGA press releases.

That investigation was over PGA rules that all professional golfers must accept as a condition of joining the PGA tour.

One of the rules forbids golfers to play in a non-PGA event without the commissioner’s permission. The other gives similar veto power over appearances on televised golf programs.

 

[WhiteBus]

That investigation was over PGA rules that all professional golfers must accept as a condition of joining the PGA tour.

One of the rules forbids golfers to play in a non-PGA event without the commissioner’s permission. The other gives similar veto power over appearances on televised golf programs.

The PGA wasn't a year round tour back then. Players could, and did, play anywhere after the season was over because there was no competing PGA event back then after, basically, the PGA Championship, so no permission was required. It is now a year round tour. PGA just changed the calendar without any say by the players.
The LIV isn't televised either so that blows that theory.
And this crap that Norman asked the DOJ to get involved is a bunch of crap. The DOJ is doing this on their own.

 

[RU85inFla]

LOL. Organizations that only care about making money blaming the players for taking the money. Sounds just like the NFL owners when guaranteed contracts started to appear. I loved this line:
“We believe it undermines the merit-based culture and spirit of open competition that makes golf so special,”

Just like in business. If you don't adapt, you die. As much as I don't really like the spirit of the LIV, I like that they are giving the finger to the old school tours.

Also, in regards to Tiger's comments, he should talk when right out of college he was given a boatload of cash and publicity. He was set for life. Much easier to focus on only golf if you are not worried about cash.

Could you explain how who makes the money on these tours. Are there stockholders? Owners? Just wondering.

 

[Ty Webb_rivals67856]

That investigation was over PGA rules that all professional golfers must accept as a condition of joining the PGA tour.

One of the rules forbids golfers to play in a non-PGA event without the commissioner’s permission. The other gives similar veto power over appearances on televised golf programs.

The back story is very similar and involves the same guy - Norman. He wanted to start a breakaway tour called the World Golf Tour but ran into problems when the PGA wouldn't allow their players to play on that tour. A complaint was made, the FTC looked into it and nothing really came about as a result of it. Norman's breakaway tour never got started.

WhiteBus is correct that situations aren't entirely the same. For one, this time it's the DOJ poking around. But the way LIV is set up is different and makes it tougher to make anti-competitive claims. LIV Golf or players that want to sue or the DOJ wanting to claim anti-trust laws were broken are going to have to prove damages to players or the tour as a result of the PGAs sanctions against golfers.

The problem, as I alluded to above, is that proving real damages are going to be hard given the signing bonuses, larger purses, guaranteed payments each week, etc.

 

[MADHAT1]

The back story is very similar and involves the same guy - Norman. He wanted to start a breakaway tour called the World Golf Tour but ran into problems when the PGA wouldn't allow their players to play on that tour. A complaint was made, the FTC looked into it and nothing really came about as a result of it. Norman's breakaway tour never got started.

WhiteBus is correct that situations aren't entirely the same. For one, this time it's the DOJ poking around. But the way LIV is set up is different and makes it tougher to make anti-competitive claims. LIV Golf or players that want to sue or the DOJ wanting to claim anti-trust laws were broken are going to have to prove damages to players or the tour as a result of the PGAs sanctions against golfers.

The problem, as I alluded to above, is that proving real damages are going to be hard given the signing bonuses, larger purses, guaranteed payments each week, etc.

Going by this
The F.T.C. looked into the PGA Tour's conflicting event rules, television release rules, no appearance fee rules, purse distribution formula and foreign player access regulations. In a one-paragraph letter this past Friday, F.T.C. Secretary Donald S. Clark wrote that the PGA Tour had not unreasonably restrained competition.

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/03/sports/investigation-into-pga-ends.html

I feel the FTC was investigating the PGA over basicly the same issues the DOJ is looking at now

 

[WhiteBus]

Could you explain how who makes the money on these tours. Are there stockholders? Owners? Just wondering.

There are all those that work for the PGA Tour which includes Monahan who makes $4,000,000 plus undisclosed bonuses and undisclosedexpenses. That may not sound like much but he has the 2nd highest pay among the US sports leagues vs revenue produced. Only behind the NFL. He was paid more money (salary only) then everyone on the PGA except the top 17. They have an $800 million slush fund. For what?? Some of you are just Monahan's lemmings without real facts. My god it is so funny reading the responses on here.

 

[MADHAT1]

The PGA wasn't a year round tour back then. Players could, and did, play anywhere after the season was over because there was no competing PGA event back then after, basically, the PGA Championship, so no permission was required. It is now a year round tour. PGA just changed the calendar without any say by the players.
The LIV isn't televised either so that blows that theory.
And this crap that Norman asked the DOJ to get involved is a bunch of crap. The DOJ is doing this on their own.

might be what you claim, but the investigation was over basically the same as the DOJ is looking at and your guess is as good as mine on why the DOJ is involved
FTC PROBING PGA TOUR – Chicago Tribune
>"Specifically, we're focusing on the competitive effects of the PGA Tour's conflicting events and television release rules," the letter said.<

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1994-06-27-9406270077-story.html

 

[WhiteBus]

might be what you claim, but the investigation was over basically the same as the DOJ is looking at and your guess is as good as mine on why the DOJ is involved
FTC PROBING PGA TOUR – Chicago Tribune
>"Specifically, we're focusing on the competitive effects of the PGA Tour's conflicting events and television release rules," the letter said.<

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1994-06-27-9406270077-story.html

You are using a 1994 article?? I'm sure nothing has changed in nearly 30 years! And the FTC is the same as the DOJ???

 

[Ty Webb_rivals67856]

You are using a 1994 article?? I'm sure nothing has changed in nearly 30 years! And the FTC is the same as the DOJ???

Well as a matter of law, anti-trust laws have not changed since 1994. So on that point, the standards are the same.

Fishkin, who spent 15 years at the FTC as a lead attorney on several merger investigations, did not work on the PGA Tour investigation. He said the fact that nothing came out of that probe would not impact the LIV or its players in their decisions on possibly filing an antitrust suit against the PGA. Fishkin added that the antitrust laws have not changed since that investigation took place.

“If a player or group of players or the LIV tour sues the PGA under the antitrust laws, I’m confident they would bring their actions under the same antitrust laws,” he said, adding he doesn’t expect the FTC to investigate the PGA today regarding any antitrust claims the LIV tour or players made against it because it has “scarce resources.”

 

[RU85inFla]

There are all those that work for the PGA Tour which includes Monahan who makes $4,000,000 plus undisclosed bonuses and undisclosedexpenses. That may not sound like much but he has the 2nd highest pay among the US sports leagues vs revenue produced. Only behind the NFL. He was paid more money (salary only) then everyone on the PGA except the top 17. They have an $800 million slush fund. For what?? Some of you are just Monahan's lemmings without real facts. My god it is so funny reading the responses on here.

They have four major expense lines. Salaries for PGA Tour personal, $$$ for charity, purses and tournament expenses. We could take money from Jay and give it to the players but that would not be substantial on a per player basis. We could take $$$ from the charitable contributions but that is the reason for being.

Seems like the reason for being is for the players.

 

[WhiteBus]

They have four major expense lines. Salaries for PGA Tour personal, $$$ for charity, purses and tournament expenses. We could take money from Jay and give it to the players but that would not be substantial on a per player basis. We could take $$$ from the charitable contributions but that is the reason for being.

Seems like the reason for being is for the players.

Explain the slush fund. Today's players not getting today's income from the tour. Go find Monahan bonuses and the PGA Tour expenses. Damn are you related to a PGA Tour worker? Like FIFA a ton of people are living off the players.

 

[RU85inFla]

Explain the slush fund. Today's players not getting today's income from the tour. Go find Monahan bonuses and the PGA Tour expenses. Damn are you related to a PGA Tour worker? Like FIFA a ton of people are living off the players.

As I have posted many times in this thread, I know a number of PGA Tour execs. That is why all I have posted about what they were going to do was spot on.

With respect to the reserves, looks like that was a wise decision right about now. As far as exorbitant expenses, I have seen nothing to support that in my 30+ years living in the town where the PGA is headquartered and knowing numerous execs.

 

[Section124]

There are all those that work for the PGA Tour which includes Monahan who makes $4,000,000 plus undisclosed bonuses and undisclosedexpenses. That may not sound like much but he has the 2nd highest pay among the US sports leagues vs revenue produced. Only behind the NFL. He was paid more money (salary only) then everyone on the PGA except the top 17. They have an $800 million slush fund. For what?? Some of you are just Monahan's lemmings without real facts. My god it is so funny reading the responses on here.

Thank you for beating me to this. This was going to be my response as well.

 

[MADHAT1]

You are using a 1994 article?? I'm sure nothing has changed in nearly 30 years! And the FTC is the same as the DOJ???

talking about an investigation you claimed was different.
Guess you didn't know that FTC investigation was in 1994 and that's why that old article was used as my source to disprove your claim the investigations were not for the same reason.
I proved by posting that old article that the FTC (back then ) and the current DOJ investigation basically looking into the same issue.
Guess that might have confused you into thinking I said the FTC and DOJ were basically the same.
Though they are both federal agencies that investigate issues that falls withing their federal jurisdiction after receiving a complaint .
But no, I never implied the DOJ &FTC were the same, I claimed the issue being looked into was basically the same.

As for nothing changed in 30 we'll find out if and when the DOJ comes to a decision or just drops it .
Could be nothing changes and business as usual for the PGA.
Could be a deal between the PGA and LIV makes investigation meaningless.and the PGA
looking like the loser
Could be the Saudis pack up their golf cart and leave the LIV tour players in a sand trap making them have to crawl back to the PGA because of losing their free ride to the bank

 

[T2Kplus20]

LIV expanding to 14 events next year. Avoiding major schedule conflicts:

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/i...-14-tournaments-405-million-total-purses-2023

LIV Golf said its events in 2023 wouldn't conflict with the four majors, international team events or heritage tournaments, "so the best players in the game will always be able to make their own choices about where to play."

"LIV Golf's expanding global platform will add a new dimension to the golf ecosystem as we know it, one that provides an opportunity for players and fans around the world to help maximize our beloved sport's true potential," CEO and commissioner Greg Norman said in a statement. "Our franchise model will bring new energy and excitement to fans from all corners of the world, establishing a league of teams to connect and grow with."

 

[RU848789]

Lot of local families in the NYC/NJ metro area not happy about the Saudi-funded LIV tour holding its next touney at Trump-Bedminster in the "shadows" of the WTC buildings that were brought down, largely by Saudi-born terrorists. Interesting Politi tweet and article on all of this - and my guess is the owner of the golf course doesn't really care much, although some of the outrage is probably exaggerated given the previous occupation of the owner, lol.

 

[Ty Webb_rivals67856]

To no surprise Bubba Watson has joined LIV. He was part of early promotions of LIV but quickly scrubbed when he didn’t make the jump. Now he has. Rumored to have gotten 50 million.

 

[T2Kplus20]

To no surprise Bubba Watson has joined LIV. He was part of early promotions of LIV but quickly scrubbed when he didn’t make the jump. Now he has. Rumored to have gotten 50 million.

Nice payday. Those 2 Masters are still paying off. I wonder what LIV is going to offer Barkley to join the broadcast team?

 

[yesrutgers01]

Nice payday. Those 2 Masters are still paying off. I wonder what LIV is going to offer Barkley to join the broadcast team?

This is part of the reason it is so hard to really get too upset at these guys. BW has made $48 mil over 20 years and 330+ Tourny's. And they are going to give him $50 mil...

 

[Jtung230]

This is part of the reason it is so hard to really get too upset at these guys. BW has made $48 mil over 20 years and 330+ Tourny's. And they are going to give him $50 mil...

50mm seems cheap compared to others. This is a no brainer for these guys.

 

[yesrutgers01]

50mm seems cheap compared to others. This is a no brainer for these guys.

Agree- but it seems close in line to we are going to give you more than your career earnings. Except for the big names or younger guys- they are being thrown crazy money.
It isn't like these guys are jumping over for an extra buck or two- they are going for life changing.

 

[Section124]

And if LIV ever collapses they go back to the PGA/Euro/Senior Tours. Win for them since they banked the big checks while they could.

 

[Jtung230]

And if LIV ever collapses they go back to the PGA/Euro/Senior Tours. Win for them since they banked the big checks while they could.

I disagree here. I think this is it for most of them. I think they made the jump knowing it’s enough money that if LIV collapsed, they are set for life.

 

[MADHAT1]

Nice payday. Those 2 Masters are still paying off. I wonder what LIV is going to offer Barkley to join the broadcast team?

Broadcast team or just a spokesman, he'll bring bring attention to that tour.
I believe he expects $60 MIL so I would guess broadcasting will be one of Chuck's duties.
Anyone complains about his going LIV might be wise to remember this Nike commercial
https://www.sportscasting.com/how-c...l-i-am-not-a-role-model-nike-spot-came-to-be/
if expecting an explanation why he went to the LIV.

Barkley is going for the dollar, just like everyone signing with the LIV tour is.
Norman isn't working for free either.
Just like the PGA head probably would head the LIV if the price is right.
Could be Monahan would say no if offered explanation saying even though the money was great , his moral standards wouldn't let him accept a job run by the Saudis
But I could be putting words in his mouth, because I can't say what he'd do if offered a bunch to sign up.

 

[Section124]

I disagree here. I think this is it for most of them. I think they made the jump knowing it’s enough money that if LIV collapsed, they are set for life.

Which makes it interesting on how many more will make the jump. It's like hitting the lottery. Guys that don't make the jump could be kicking themselves down the road.

 

[Jtung230]

Which makes it interesting on how many more will make the jump. It's like hitting the lottery. Guys that don't make the jump could be kicking themselves down the road.

I think you see the trend. Guys who are on the declined will make the jump vs guys that are on the rise will not. Then there are guys that can’t catch a bid.

 

[rcube1994]

Anyone keeping track of all the rumored payouts? Curious how much LIV has committed to pay all these guys. Make sure to add in Matsuyamas $400m.

DJ and Phil might be renegotiating after that one.

 

[Section124]

I think you see the trend. Guys who are on the declined will make the job vs guys that are on the rise will not. Then there are guys that can’t catch a bid.

For the guys that can't catch a bid, the time is now to do something on the PGA/Euro Tours. That could be life changing for them as well since they now have more opportunity. A guy like Gotterup may have gotten some invites due to the defections. Makes all tours worth watching for now.

 

[T2Kplus20]

This is part of the reason it is so hard to really get too upset at these guys. BW has made $48 mil over 20 years and 330+ Tourny's. And they are going to give him $50 mil...

And let's be honest, this selective outrage about SA is ridiculous.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Which makes it interesting on how many more will make the jump. It's like hitting the lottery. Guys that don't make the jump could be kicking themselves down the road.

yep- take a guy like Bubba- usually plays in 20 tourny's a year and makes about $1.5 mil.
These are the PGA guys taking the $20-100 mil payouts

How is it even possible to question why?

 

[MADHAT1]

And let's be honest, this selective outrage about SA is ridiculous.

no its not.
Some outrage probably is just PGA loyalty, but the moral outrage by some can't be denied.
Along with those not leaning one way or another in public , just biding their time to see where the wind blows before making their thoughts know about supporting the LIV or not.

 

[yesrutgers01]

no its not.
Some outrage probably is just PGA loyalty, but the moral outrage by some can't be denied.
Along with those not leaning one way or another in public , just biding their time to see where the wind blows before making their thoughts know about joining the LIV or not.

Any chance some of the guys staying are now visited by PGA bagmen with untraceable $$$$$
Everyne else not going, maybe, it is because they have not been offered yet. lol

 

[T2Kplus20]

no its not.
Some outrage probably is just PGA loyalty, but the moral outrage by some can't be denied.
Along with those not leaning one way or another in public , just biding their time to see where the wind blows before making their thoughts know about supporting the LIV or not.

Yes it is. Completely ridiculous. Nike? NBA/China? Biden fist-bumping the Crowned Prince? Border-lining on hypocrisy.

 

[Section124]

Yes it is. Completely ridiculous. Nike? NBA/China? Biden fist-bumping the Crowned Prince? Border-lining on hypocrisy.

And the World Cup is in Qatar. F1 with races in SA/Aramco sponsor. I saw women in the Evian golf major all with Amarco Series on their shirts. The list goes on and on.

 

[MADHAT1]

Yes it is. Completely ridiculous. Nike? NBA/China? Biden fist-bumping the Crowned Prince? Border-lining on hypocrisy.

No it's not ridiclous, but bringing in a politician to prove a point over something he done might be considered an overreach
Some feel the Saudis had a hand in 9/11, or just turned a blind eye to the terrorist that planned the attack.So some of the backlash might be more valid than ridiculous
Add the killing of a journalist and you'll see righteous indignation that isn't ridiculous.

Just because one doesn't think something worthwhile to be bothered over, others might feel what happened is unforgivable.

As for politics being brought into this, that's a ridiculous way to call something ridiculous .
Some moves by politicians might be done out of needing negotiations to start off on a friendly manner then bringing up the problem during it.

Just like an ex President just about saying someone's death is old news and not worth being upset about might be considered a ridiculous statement, but can understand why with the LIV tour being played at his golf course and he wants as little attention to protesting that event and more positive coverage.
Adding something about those behind the killing are getting good PR because of the LIV tour.was a callous ridiculous move , but then again his administration was part of whitewashing the Saudi approved killing of someone who constantly wrote not so nice things about them

As for Nike, that commercial with Chuck staring in it only shows on this thread what can be expected to be his reply if he signs with LIV and people complain.
In reference to how Barkley said he had an offer to sign with thew LIV.
So if posting it in this thread was unwarranted and not part of the conversation , ridiculous it is .
As for China, are they involved some way or just an add-on because of Chuck's commercial being posted.

As I said before, I think the Saudis will keep spending on their tour until the PGA gets tired of fighting them and the expenses that entails.
A trip to the bargaining table to negotiate a truce will happen in a couple of years and both tours will work together trying not to step on each others toes while turning a profit and having players be able to play in both tours with guild-lines set so both tours can benefit
from the PR that player brings with them

 

[Jtung230]

And the World Cup is in Qatar. F1 with races in SA/Aramco sponsor. I saw women in the Evian golf major all with Amarco Series on their shirts. The list goes on and on.

The outrage is not coming from golf fans.