And this feels so ignorant. An AR-10 or an AR-15 chambered in 6.8, 6.5 Grendel, even good ole 5.56 nato could possibly be one of the best rifles for deer hunting in MS. Where I live you will not take a shot over 150 yards. I'd prefer a light rifle with a low power optic on it coming in under 7 pounds. How is it 'just not the same'?
OT - Deer Rifle
- Thread starter Ridgeland Dog
- Start date
And this feels so ignorant. An AR-10 or an AR-15 chambered in 6.8, 6.5 Grendel, even good ole 5.56 nato could possibly be one of the best rifles for deer hunting in MS. Where I live you will not take a shot over 150 yards. I'd prefer a light rifle with a low power optic on it coming in under 7 pounds. How is it 'just not the same'?
I see all these comments for 7mm-08, .308, etc, and they will all certainly work, but if you want your son to be Cock of the Walk in whatever circles he runs, buy him an M-1 Garand in 30-06, a Schuster adjustable gas plug, some soft point hunting ammo, and let him kill deer with a badass WWII infantry rifle.
Excellent explanation RBH. The term you are looking for is Hydraulic Shock. There are two main ways a bullet will kill, wound channel which is the actual damage done as the bullet passes through, imagine an arrow or ice pick, and hydraulic shock which is tissue damage caused by the release of energy from the decelerating projectile. The wound channel requires perfect shot placement in order to kill, hydraulic shock has more margin for error. The perfect bullet will enter the deer, expand to 2-3 times it original diameter, exit the far side in order to give two blood exit points and fall to the ground having spent 99.9% of its energy. This is where bones and soft tissue come into play. Most people believe that a bullet expands to make a bigger hole but it really expands in order to dissipate energy, the bigger hole helps but the designers intent was to transfer energy. I won't argue the AR argument, I own a couple and sometime hunt with an AR10 in .308, but the .223/5.56 round was never designed as a killer for med to large size game. If we are at war and I kill you, one person is eliminated from the battlefield. If I wound you, two people have to carry you to aid, one person does triage, somebody starts an IV, somebody knocks you out, somebody operates, and so on and so on. A 55 grain bullet just doesn't store enough energy to make clean quick kills without perfect shot placement. I have killed deer with a 22 LR and a 45 ACP but neither were ideal rounds and left little margin for error.
Hydraulic shock is what causes bloodshot meat too. So if you want to lose a shoulder of venison or something, shoot the deer with a high velocity round.
The other philosophy (and the one I'm currently experimenting with) is to shoot a deer with a heavy, slow-moving bullet when hunting out to 150 yards or so. There is a huge body of evidence that speaks to the effectiveness of a heavy, slow bullet that hits like a bowling ball.
This is the projectile that my 45-70 loads at around 1300 fps are using:
View attachment 7089
A wide meplat, or front face of the bullet will do huge damage to a thin-skinned medium game like whitetail deer. And with the huge hollow point, it should expand and shed energy inside the body cavity like nobody's business. Can't wait to get a deer in my sights this year with these loads.
Not my experience. I shot a dozen or so with the 45-70 during the old primitive weapon season. I always used the cheap, slow 300 grain Federal or Winchester ammo. Pokes a big hole, but they run awhile. I shot a 205 lb buck once quartering away. Hit good exited fat shoulder. He ran off. I waited 20 minutes. Followed the trail (good trail though). Walked up and he was sitting on the ground with his head up watching me. Ended up shooting him 3 more times. It was a mess. Not a fan.
You're right about the meat damage though.
Very true about the bloodshot meat but I learned very early to get away from the shoulders and trying to make the perfect heart shot. I double lung them just like I would with a bow, there is really nothing to lose in the ribs in my opinion and I seldom have a deer leave its tracks when shooting my 270. I too have fell in love with the big and slow bullets to the point that they are my primary guns for the past 3-4 years. I have a Winchester 1885 in 45-70, a Ruger No 3 in 45-70, and a Ruger No 1 in 405 winchester. I have a Lyman peep on the 1885 and have shot it at steel over 1000 yards just like the old buffalo hunters. From the bench, I can almost lay the gun down and stand up before you hear the clang. The 405 is a hoss, it never was a black powder round so it is quiet a bit stronger than the 45-70 and will remind you if you don't have a good grip. I killed a 160 class 8 point 2 years ago with it. Don't limit yourself to 150 yards, a rangefinder, a BDC scope or adjustable peep, and a little practice will allow you to shoot well beyond what you would normally do with a conventional deer caliber.
This is just 100% completely inaccurate and misleading. It was designed with the average draftee in mind in the mid 60's to shoot 'minute of man'. Any modern AR is going to EASILY shoot 2 MOA which is extremely effective for shooting deer out to 250 yards. The truth is the majority of ARs today will shoot MOA or under (mine shoots .5 with 77 grain match ammo if I do my part). Match your barrel twist rate with the appropriate bullet weight then experiment with a few different match grade ammos and you will get MOA out of 80% of ARs. Another point I would raise is that if you give a younger kid or someone learning to shoot accurately and fundamentally, an AR and a 270 they will fire the AR better. I can't tell you how many people I've seen pull shots because they anticipate the recoil of a heavy hitting rifle. The recoil for a 5.56 will be a non factor. OP - I'm not familiar with your son's proficiency with a rifle but if he already knows how to shoot I'd still recommend a bolt .308 but you will not go wrong with an AR for MS whitetail. Anyone who tells you otherwise either legitimately does not know or is being stubborn because that isn't what their daddy taught them to hunt with.
The "wounding a man takes more than one person out of the fight" argument has been debunked more than a few times. There was never an effort to make a round that intentionally wounded rather than killing. That's ludacris. The 5.56 was designed to be lethal due to it'a velocity and a 69 grain Sierra Match King bullet will put a 150-200 lb deer (or man) flat on the ground quickly if the bullet is put where it is supposed to go.
With large, slow bullets I shoot them in the shoulder to break some bone and anchor them in place. My 458 SOCOM does a pretty decent job even with subsonic ammo. In fact, that is the ONLY round I shoot that I trust to reliably kill deer and pigs quickly with subsonic ammo. 300 BLK absolutely SUCKS when it comes to cleanly killing medium to large game with subsonic bullets.
I try for the heart shot too, but sometimes when the deer doesn't give you a perfect broadside shot, you've got to either go in through the shoulder (quartering towards you shot) or the bullet is going to take out the far shoulder/leg (quartering away shot) after it tears up the boilerroom.
And sometimes I have gotten tired of waiting for the perfect broadside heart shot and just said 17 it, I'm anchoring this deer right here right now, and blowed up a shoulder on the way to a lung/heart shot to get it on the ground before darkness/rain/it ran off/whatever.
disagree--they have since junked the 270 and now shoot other calibers and don't have the same problems. I guess if you like a 270 then great. i can list plenty really good hunters and they can shoot just fine that will testify against the 270.
I'm jealous. I've want a .458 SOCOM, but am not sure I would have the time to reload.
Mid-South Munitions is a company based in Byhalia/Nesbit, MS and they load some fairly affordable 458 SOCOM stuff. They won't be as cheap as reloading, but with the price of 458 brass, it would be close. He loads a 500 grain Maker bullet in his subsonic that is incredible.
I think I just heard Jack O'Conner turn over in his grave...
But, I do see a lot of 270's in pawn shops.
Still it's a fine round.
But, I do see a lot of 270's in pawn shops.
Still it's a fine round.
One of the biggest reasons the 5.56 was chosen over the .308 and other rounds was the fact that the loaded shell is lighter than a .308/7.62, therefore the average soldier could carry more ammo without carrying more weight. Every round is lethal if striking a vital organ, the quickness of the lethality is dependent on the organ hit. The only military round adopted for its perceived ability to drop a man in his tracks was the 45 ACP after the 38 special was so ineffective in the Philippine War and even that is not totally effective. I'm just saying that in my opinion, there are much better options for deer than the 5.56/223 that pack more energy therefore not requiring precise shot placement for an effective kill. I load a Sierra Game King HPBT 140 grain in my 270 win so I'm a fan of the Sierra's, I just like more weight. As I said in an earlier post, speed is no longer my thing, big slow lead coming out of guns whose design dates back to the 19 century is my thing right now. There was a day when I loved nothing more than black composite and stainless steel, now give me deep blueing, wood stocks, and a long history.
Yes, but the Dept of Defense study of every battle in WWII concluded that quantity of rounds was the most important need for the infantryman. This study laid the groundwork for the development of the M16 & 5.56. He can carry over twice the rounds than for the M1 & 30-06.
The sacrifice in "lethality" was a compromise for quantity and deemed "good enough".
That "bullet tumbling through flesh" thing is a myth.
I know lots of people shooting the 5.56/.223 at deer, but it's illegal on national forest land, wma's, and in most states.
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You and I are on the same page here. If we ever cross paths in real life, beers are on me. I hate all the modern rifles.
You might need to get a couple of facts straight there partner.
I sent my 700, 30 06 back to Remington in 2014, on their dime.
Came back in less than 4 weeks.
And I'm just as pleased as I can be. Now if any one choses to buy a used 700, I'd recommend that they investigate
the Sr. # and verify that the guns has been repaired, or even in the suspect group.
Also, there is an identifying mark on the repaired rifles.
I sent my 700, 30 06 back to Remington in 2014, on their dime.
Came back in less than 4 weeks.
And I'm just as pleased as I can be. Now if any one choses to buy a used 700, I'd recommend that they investigate
the Sr. # and verify that the guns has been repaired, or even in the suspect group.
Also, there is an identifying mark on the repaired rifles.
Difference of opinion like I said, to each his own. I can see your point of view and yes it's an effective firearm for killing deer. But, right or wrong, people are going to associate it with the playing army man persona. In time it will probably pass. However you are about as defensive and naive about it as ole Hugh was when he sent out his infamous tweet.
I can be empathetic and see beyond my own personal views on things. Your posts on this topic just come across as having a compulsion or deep seeded need to have everyone agree with your personal views on it.
I guess if that makes me ignorant then so be it.
First, you are replying to two different posters here. You're attributing someone else's quotes to me. Excellent job of reading comprehension.
Second, I "played army man" in real life. I grew comfortable with the AR-15 and M-21 in Iraq and that has translated to my personal taste in firearms now that I am out of the military. You know, kinda like every other hunting rifle in history starting back in colonial times. Simple formula really. Man goes to war. Man uses rifle in war. Man becomes accustomed to rifle. Man adopts rifle as his weapon of choice. Man uses chooses rifle to hunt. Hunting rifles evolve.
For someone whom claims to be "empathetic" and "sees beyond his own personal views" you've damned sure had a hard time differentiating between facts and your own personal views. The AR-15/10 is one of the most popular rifles in the world and is showing up in deer stands more and more these days. When I was selling guns, the vast majority of rifles I sold were AR-15s and most of those buyers intended to hunt with their AR-15 to some degree. It may not make sense to you, but your opinion is quickly becoming a minority opinion as more and more people educate themselves about the platform and it's capabilities.
Second, I "played army man" in real life. I grew comfortable with the AR-15 and M-21 in Iraq and that has translated to my personal taste in firearms now that I am out of the military. You know, kinda like every other hunting rifle in history starting back in colonial times. Simple formula really. Man goes to war. Man uses rifle in war. Man becomes accustomed to rifle. Man adopts rifle as his weapon of choice. Man uses chooses rifle to hunt. Hunting rifles evolve.
For someone whom claims to be "empathetic" and "sees beyond his own personal views" you've damned sure had a hard time differentiating between facts and your own personal views. The AR-15/10 is one of the most popular rifles in the world and is showing up in deer stands more and more these days. When I was selling guns, the vast majority of rifles I sold were AR-15s and most of those buyers intended to hunt with their AR-15 to some degree. It may not make sense to you, but your opinion is quickly becoming a minority opinion as more and more people educate themselves about the platform and it's capabilities.
Perhaps I read you wrong, but I did not change the trigger, just had it worked on. I'll keep it, and question those that seem to bash it.
Remington made some really solid rifles. There's a reason that the model 700 is the standard for military and police sniper rifles in this country. That said, the trigger was a known weak point and even though it is an over-stated issue, it's still a serious issue. Quality overall has slipped since they were bought out a few years ago, but their 5R Mil-Spec rifles and other top of the line models are still solid shooters.
Deer hunters in Mississippi are fortunate since they can choose many different types of guns and ammunition to harvest the majestic beast. There are other states less fortunate.
There is one goal in mind for all of us, a clean kill. With the proper skills and weaponry of choice, everyone has the opportunity to achieve that goal.
We are grateful for the challenge.
There is one goal in mind for all of us, a clean kill. With the proper skills and weaponry of choice, everyone has the opportunity to achieve that goal.
We are grateful for the challenge.
Several years ago a good friendswife came to me wanting help with an
I probanly like like the taste of beer more than the smell of gunpowder.
anniversary present. She gave me a nice budget too. I knew he was a Quigly Down Under fan so I ordered a Pendersoli Sharps 45-120 and mounted a Leatherwood brass 6x scope that was about 36 inches long on it. You want to talk about one fine firearm. It weighed about 13 lbs and the recoil was surprisingly manageable. I hated to give that one up and planned on building myself the same gun with a shorter barrel in 45-70 but eventually ended up with the 1885 instead. I've got the 1911 bug too, I just hope the Single Action Army bug never bites!
I probanly like like the taste of beer more than the smell of gunpowder.
We're going to have to disagree. I believe "minute of man" is a tongue-in-cheek sarcastic play on words of how INaccurate the M16 was. "Minute of angle" is 1" at 100 yards; "minute of man" is something like 6".
In fact, current military acceptable tolerance is 5.6" at 100 yards for its M4.
Now, you can certainly upgrade to barrels and uppers which will get you where you want to be. I realize that they have marksmanship competitions with them, and many are super accurate.
Your friend is lucky indeed. Amazing wife and a wise friend in you.
When I think of passing down my firearms to my kids, plastic stocked rifles just seem like awful heirlooms. Blued steel and nice wooden stocks have a timeless appeal. That's why I much prefer classic Smith and Ruger revolvers to plastic semiautomatic pistols as well.
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It has to be due to smaller manufacturing runs. I assume that 30-06 is one of the most produced while 25-06 is one of the least produced.
I can see your point, but I think it depends on the political climate. I wish my dad and grandfather had the foresight to buy a bunch of machine guns before 1986. There have been times when I felt the same way about leaving my kids with a bunch of scary looking AR-15s if you catch my drift.
I catch your drift and I've got an AR set aside for each of them to inherit too. Because reasons. But plastic ARs just don't have soul like blued steel and wood do.
I've got several of my dad's guns that are blued steel and wood that I'll keep forever because of the memories, but wood stocks just don't do anything for me. It rusts and dents and scratches and I'm sure for some that adds character. My rifles get subjected to some abuse, especially when pig hunting at night. I guess that's why I prefer a more utilitarian design.