OT: Anthem demonstrations

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dukiejay

Heisman
Mar 2, 2005
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This is what I think the problem is, and why I abhor 24 hour news services. There is so much noise (from both sides) that it is hard to stay on point. Too many agendas can cloud the issue and it gets muddled.

Well said. It's a scary world we live in....and it's getting scarier every day. And....it's not just one side using the scare tactics. It's a joint effort.

I recognize the points on each side. That said, I found myself watching less football over the weekend (even forgot to set my fantasy lineup for one league, damnit), avoiding social media like the plague and not bringing it up in conversation with anyone I encountered. Instead, on Saturday we took advantage of great fall weather in the Midwest and went on a family hike. On Sunday, we went to church, brunch and then I took my oldest to the golf course. Last night I helped her with homework and we played catch in the backyard. I admit....I was checking in periodically on the Vikings score Sunday, but the POTUS, Hollywood, professional athletes and dimwits on both sides of the aisle have managed to make sports not as "fun" for me.

Sports, this board, even to an extent, social media....were escapes for me. That's not what they are any longer.
 
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TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
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Can I ask a random question...?

How frequently does everyone here have real, in depth discussions with people of other races about race in America?

I'm lucky enough to have a regular Xbox crew that I've played with for years... and its about six dudes, four of which are black dudes between the ages of 35 and 45.

And we discuss this stuff literally every night (I play a lot of xbox.) And it is REALLY informative to hear their stances, their thoughts, their first hand experiences.

But I think most people don't do this. We self segregate a lot, and we also don't have conversations about this stuff that often.

So realistically...how often do you discuss this stuff with people of a different race?
 

retiredsoldier

All-American
Mar 10, 2012
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I truly hate politics and refuse to let my life be engulfed in it. I've lost friends over it and just don't understand the insanity around it so I try to avoid it. I have friends that obsess literally over Rep vs dem 24/7 and I honestly feel sorry for them. I do stand also but respect others rights to peacefully protest. I think I would vote for the Rock if he ran :)

Thanks to retiredsoldier and the others that have served. We are blessed to have people as courageous as you.


Really looking for to this boards great uniter - THIS YEAR'S AMAZING TEAM!!!!
Ty 500HP. Nice ride by the way, I have the 15 all black ZL1.
 

pisgah101

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Dec 26, 2005
15,622
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Good restraint. While this might sound silly, I don't think @pisgah101 MEANT it to be offensive... I think he genuinely is proposing that the country of Africa (you know what I mean) is not as good as America.

Or something. Not sure if that makes it better.

But yeah. Our country is in a bit of nutty-time. Hey, as someone said earlier in this thread... its always darkest before the dawn. Before we got out of Vietnam, it was BAD. Before we passed the Civil RIghts Act, it was BAD. Before we passed the 13th and 14th amendments, it was REALLY BAD. Its okay for a country to go through these things, as long as we come out better in the end, and it is too late to say there is no chance of that.

Ding ding ding we have a winner somebody got what I was trying to get at. As for Nixon his foreign policy was second to none and he won re-election by a landslide and was loved until he was thrown under the bus for something that today would get him the democratic nomination
 

pisgah101

Heisman
Dec 26, 2005
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I would like to think we as a nation have closed the gap between black and white divide.. Then you see This


As an black man..That was a pretty low and insensitive comment.. Good job for the posters for not going off on the deep end. I literally had to count to 10 before I responded.

Context is key pal
 

TheDude1

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Apr 15, 2010
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Ding ding ding we have a winner somebody got what I was trying to get at. As for Nixon his foreign policy was second to none and he won re-election by a landslide and was loved until he was thrown under the bus for something that today would get him the democratic nomination

Uh, Pis, you DO understand how crazy offensive that sounded, right? "Go back to African if you don't like the life here, you former slave!" Like... that's not on Tlass, that's on you?

And yeah, no... conspiring to commit theft and illegally recording people would not get anyone a democratic nomination. Try to stay on topic and not veer off to strange, shot-taking tangents.
 
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bfort2223

Sophomore
Dec 4, 2009
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Education is not just about going to school, unless your definition of education is INCREDIBLY limited.

But when you name someone THE WORST PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME, a guy who was president when 20 million+ Americans got health care, when the DOW doubled, when unemployment halved... you DO sound uneducated about American history and presidencies. Sorry, you just do. Do you know nothing about Andrew Johnson and Reconstruction? Do you know nothing about Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression? Do you know nothing about Warren Harding, and the incredible corruption that came with him? I mean, George Bush was President and CiC when we suffered the worst attack on the homeland since Pearl Harbor and was President during the worst economic collapse since the Depression.

And yes, you have the right to an opinion... but when that opinion seems completely unsupported by fact, don't expect people to treat said opinion as seriously as an opinion supported by fact and reason.

Good lord, nothing on earth annoys me as much as this idea that all opinions are equally valid. That is garbage. Opinions are not somehow some sacred thing that is beyond analysis or reproach.

I'd particularly agree with this last point. We're in this fuzzy, post-fact world where, to some, democracy means "my opinion is as good as your knowledge." Facts and evidence are summarily dismissed as easily as saying "wrong" or "I don't believe it" and offering no counter evidence refuting the purportedly wrong idea.

It's scary because it makes it very improbable that people without widespread access to academic research and writing are going to make informed decisions.

I think one thing that gets lost in this political entrenchment argument is what possible interests are being served by the respective agendas. They're not necessarily equally valid when it all boils down. Logically, it seems to make sense (at least to me) that if someone has been lamenting their mistreatment for generations, and again this is mistreatment acknowledged by a variety of subject-matter experts, we should at least listen to the argument (to say nothing of its probable validity).

On the other side (and I'm not supporting the two side theory just acknowledging that the perception exists), I'm actually not clear what they think they're pushing up against. Most on here have recognized one's right to free speech. If it's simply about watching football detached from politics, just tune in after the national anthem. We are, in fact, talking about allegedly contradictory symbolic gestures, but even if that were true there is no actual threat to any American freedoms via the protests; the threat would be to prevent the protests, as it would set a pretty slippery precedent and be contrary to the Constitution, which is even more tenable as a document of American identity than the national anthem or a flag is.
 

Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
9,504
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That's particularly funny, because I probably post more actual facts and studies and stats than anyone else in any of these political discussions:)
Dude, I think you're a decent person, I really do. My only issue with your posting is you come across like you're the smartest one that is in the room.
You do bring up some good points, I just wish you wouldn't constantly remind us that you are as educated as you are.
I think your heart is in the right place though.
 

hart2chesson

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Oct 13, 2012
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I'm not. Does someone have to be a mod to suggest that we not let the discussion dissolve into random pot shots?

Some of your posts walk an awfully thin line toward personal attacks on here. "Foolish and uneducated" is pretty harsh and uncalled for IMO.....

OFC
 
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TheDude1

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Apr 15, 2010
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Dude, I think you're a decent person, I really do. My only issue with your posting is you come across like you're the smartest one that is in the room.
You do bring up some good points, I just wish you wouldn't constantly remind us that you are as educated as you are.
I think your heart is in the right place though.

Mac, I appreciate it. Honestly, being a good person means a LOT to me. I sort of hate conflict and the like, even though I get pulled into these things a lot... but usually it is because I am SURE we can come to some common understandings. I know you've read some of this on the national forum... so you've probably seen how many times I've said things like "I think we all agree on more than we know" and stuff like that. I mean, that's why I was "sticking up" for Pisgah in this thread just now. I genuinely want us to find common ground, because I DO think that almost everyone here is a decent person, and if we were sitting face to face sharing a drink we'd likely all get along and find a LOT of common ground... a job that leaves us beat at the end of the day, a wife we love but who tells us what to do, a mother in law who tires us out, a Duke coach that we wish would develop the bench more:)

But the thing is... as a person who inherently loves discussion and the like, it is really, really, really hard to read things that I know are basically factually untrue, and equally hard to read things that really show that someone doesn't understand something, and just take it. It is honestly hard.

Imagine if there was a poster who was... I don't know, a member of the military. Said person explained, in a post, how to properly clear a room. How to slice the pie, how to call out... all of that stuff.

Then someone with no military experience beyond what the average person knows from their experiences came in and corrected them, and told them that they were wrong, and all of that.

Would that be acceptable? Would we be okay with this second person's take, and give their take the same weight?

No. I don't think we would.

Well, when it comes to discussions of race and American history, that's how it feels to me.

I am NOT saying this to be offensive. I am not saying I am inherently better than anyone. I just know a lot about this stuff. I know about the stats, I know about the history... I know a lot about it.

And I have a very hard time

Does this make sense? Honestly, not trying to take shots, not trying to be jerkish... I am not rolling my eyes when I type this, and I am not being sarcastic or anything, which is hard to tell on the internet... (even THAT sounds sarcastic, but it isn't meant to be!:) )

If we talk tax reform, I'll gladly shut up and listen once the conversation gets beyond the basics. If we talk stock market reform, I'll gladly shut up and listen once the conversation gets beyond the basics. About any number of topics, I'll gladly shut up and listen once we get past the basics.

Over the last year or so, politics and race has been a big topic. It's one I know a lot about, and I have a hard time not challenging someone when I think they are wrong. I'm sorry if it comes off nastily at times (and at times it IS... there is a lot of nasty stuff thrown around on the internet, and sometimes I give in and respond in kind... although often I'll go back and edit to get rid of it, or even apologize and try to mend bridges later... I tried that several times with SoCal...) but it really isn't meant to be.

(That was a lot of typing.)
 

TheDude1

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Apr 15, 2010
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Some of your posts walk an awfully thin line toward personal attacks on here. "Foolish and uneducated" is pretty harsh and uncalled for IMO.....

OFC

Oh, come on Hart. "Foolish" is some harsh personal attack? "Uneducated," in response to someone calling Obama the worst president in history? I mean... that IS uneducated, if you know American history... CLEARLY he is not the worst President ever. If you have any education in American history, that's obvious. I mean, if you can't say that's uneducated... when CAN you say someone sounds uneducated? What if someone says the best cure for a heart attack is jogging...? Can we not call that uneducated? I mean... Hart... I LITERALLY said I wasn't trying to offend when I said it sound uneducated. I literally said that. Because I was not trying to sound mean or start a fight; I was speaking literally.

If "foolish" and "uneducated" are really pretty harsh and uncalled for, especially when someone specifically says they are not trying to offend... well, I have no response man. What would YOU say in response to something that was foolish and uneducated? What phrases should I use?
 

Dattier

All-American
Sep 1, 2003
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Hey, y'all, wut did I miss?

Right to protest, yay 1st Amendment. The reason it has to be Constitutionally protected is b/c there's a strong likelihood people won't like it and would oppress it otherwise. Protest isn't supposed to be nice and agreeable. It's what people do after they've asked nicely and haven't received satisfaction. Asking things like, "But why do they have to protest in that way?" demonstrates a shallow understanding of the nature of protest. If you're offended by a form of legal protest, try focusing on why they're doing it instead. You don't have to agree, but you might, and if you then contribute to addressing the reasons behind it effectively, the legal form of protest you find offensive will no longer be necessary.

A year and a half ago, I might have said something to the person sitting and talking through the anthem. I find that disrespectful. What distinguishes this, though, is that it is purposeful, principled, and doesn't disrupt anyone else's ability to recognize the anthem as they see fit. And the reasoning is sound. Who are any of us to demand idolatry from someone at all, let alone for an idolatrous cloth that has not lived up to the promise of freedom and fairness? We either need to fix that problem or convince people it has been fixed if we expect this protest to end.

A year+ ago when there was that awful terrorist attack in Paris, there was an outpouring of global sympathy for the French people and outrage over the attack. That racial equity protest at Mizzou was going on around the same time, and one of the protesters said, "What about us?" and got a lot of flack for it. My first reaction was to criticize the timing. Then I realized, if you've been waiting forever with no sign that the problems hurting you will ever be addressed, what's someone else's "timing" to you? No one listened to you before that, even when there wasn't some other high profile event drawing everyone's attention, so why are you going to care if someone acts indignant and says, "Hey, this isn't the time." When is the time?

If the response to this protest is, "Hey, this isn't the time," and "Hey, this isn't the way (b/c our anthem and flag are sacred)," the response is again, "When is the time?" and "Why aren't our lives sacred? Why aren't the lives the flag purports to protect more important than honoring the flag if the flag is failing in that duty?"

Oh, bu-bu-but the flag represents the country where they've been able to make millions of dollars playing a game? Last I checked millions of dollars doesn't alleviate the disproportionate anxiety Black parents have about whether their teenage children are going to make it home safely even if they don't do anything wrong. When my kids go out, I worry about safe driving. I don't worry about the very police we entrust w/ protecting us seeing my White kids as inherent threats. Black parents do have that concern. You can claim that's a ridiculous concern, but it doesn't make it any less real, and it doesn't explain why Black parents across this country have that concern in far, far greater %s than White parents, regardless of money, education, behavior, class, or any other factor but race, race, and race.
 

hart2chesson

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Oct 13, 2012
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If "foolish" and "uneducated" are really pretty harsh and uncalled for, especially when someone specifically says they are not trying to offend... well, I have no response man.

Wait, WAIT!!!!! HALT!!!!! "I have no response man." I cant believe there will ever be a day we could count on that from you, lol.....OFC
 

pisgah101

Heisman
Dec 26, 2005
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Uh, Pis, you DO understand how crazy offensive that sounded, right? "Go back to African if you don't like the life here, you former slave!" Like... that's not on Tlass, that's on you?

And yeah, no... conspiring to commit theft and illegally recording people would not get anyone a democratic nomination. Try to stay on topic and not veer off to strange, shot-taking tangents.

I'm over you
 
Dec 22, 2005
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You're scarce for a H of F poster....

OFC
I've been on this board for years...i do post occasionally but I find my time is better spent elsewhere. This topic is just very personal to me. My father is black and Japanese, and my mother is white. My dad was in the military and more conservative and my mom is the liberal hero. I tend to fall somewhere in between them but issues of racism are not things that I will ever back down to. For those of you that are white, I can never explain to you what it feels like to have somebody hate you just for the color of your skin. And sometimes it is harder for mixed people. Not White enough for the white people and not black enough for the blacks. I just cannot fathom how we can judge people based on their skin color and have a certain population be okay with that.
 

pisgah101

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Dec 26, 2005
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@hart2chesson hes not a mod but he's a lib and if you don't agree YOURE WRONG!!!!!!! And him bringing up Nixon wasn't off topic but I responded with what tons of historians believe he can't handle it. He's on the same level as that other special lib that is tearing apart the main board now.
 

Swervin_Irvin_Duke

Sophomore
Sep 28, 2012
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First off everything you do in life is dependent upon history, the things that happen before you. I am not shocked by some white boy saying racist sh*t, that is what most do. My thing is you say things like that then "love" black Duke players, gtfoh. Lame a*s mofo.

People like you are the reason we are currently going through this bs in the U.S, you never learned anything in Americas indoctrinated history classes. You learn history so you do not repeat it, America is currently in 1965.

I would love for you to say that to any of the Black DUKE players faces, they would smack the sh*t outta you. esp: Wendell, Trevon, and Gary
 
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TheDude1

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Apr 15, 2010
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I've been on this board for years...i do post occasionally but I find my time is better spent elsewhere. This topic is just very personal to me. My father is black and Japanese, and my mother is white. My dad was in the military and more conservative and my mom is the liberal hero. I tend to fall somewhere in between them but issues of racism are not things that I will ever back down to. For those of you that are white, I can never explain to you what it feels like to have somebody hate you just for the color of your skin. And sometimes it is harder for mixed people. Not White enough for the white people and not black enough for the blacks. I just cannot fathom how we can judge people based on their skin color and have a certain population be okay with that.

Our own Shane Battier has written, and spoken, at length about this. If you haven't read what he's written, its definitely worth a read.
 

GOFRYE

Redshirt
Sep 25, 2017
27
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Just to clear the air. I’ve been a Duke fan since about 1970. My late mother worked for Duke for 10 years. Remember going to football and basketball games. I’m talking about before K. I’m 55 years old and have been reading this site for ten plus years. But I had until last night never possted. Have no agenda. Just feel that everyone should have the same rights. Regardless of race! We can agree to disagree!
 

hart2chesson

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Oct 13, 2012
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@hart2chesson hes not a mod but he's a lib and if you don't agree YOURE WRONG!!!!!!! And him bringing up Nixon wasn't off topic but I responded with what tons of historians believe he can't handle it. He's on the same level as that other special lib that is tearing apart the main board now.

Pisgah I read ya my friend!!! Lol! OFC
 
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ttk2002

Sophomore
Apr 13, 2006
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what the f are you talking bout that most white boys say racist things. The thinks with liberals is they normalized the word "Racist", which is one of the most offensive things you could call someone. I don't judge anyone but other than how they treat me. You are getting sucked in by the liberal garbage..
 
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TheDude1

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Apr 15, 2010
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@hart2chesson hes not a mod but he's a lib and if you don't agree YOURE WRONG!!!!!!! And him bringing up Nixon wasn't off topic but I responded with what tons of historians believe he can't handle it. He's on the same level as that other special lib that is tearing apart the main board now.

See, Pis, where does this come from?

No, if you disagree with me you aren't wrong. I disagree with Jimbo over on the main board a lot. I disagree with my father in law. I disagree with lots of people. We can disagree about Nixon, my pleasure! Disagreement doesn't mean someone is wrong.

What tons of historians believe? Tons of historians believe that Nixon, who had some great strengths (China, eta) was a disaster of a president for a wealth of things...the messy, protracted end to Vietnam, the influx of money influencing politics, and of course the complete collapse of the presidency itself among scandal and crime. And heaven forbid that someone with a degree in history and who teaches history contributes his two cents... am I not historian enough?:)

I don't get why you are suddenly getting all personal with this. I literally just defended you, in this very thread... how on earth does that then become you going after me?
 
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TheDude1

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Apr 15, 2010
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what the f are you talking bout that most white boys say racist things. The thinks with liberals is they normalized the word "Racist", which is one of the most offensive things you could call someone. I don't judge anyone but other than how they treat me. You are getting sucked in by the liberal garbage..

I don't think MOST is at all a fair statement here.

I'd take a step back a bit on this one. My guess is Swervin is pretty pissed off about what Pisgah said. That was pretty f'ing out there, and incredibly insulting. You notice the black poster on the last page who literally had to take some breaths before responding?

Here, lemme help:

@Swervin_Irvin_Duke , do you really think most white men say racist ****? Or were you just really pissed off at what you just read, and at all the **** that's been thrown at black people over the last few years, and took a shot back at someone you saw as being disgustingly racist?

Might as well clarify. Sometimes emotions get in the way.
 

TheDude1

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Hah! He wrote at the same time I did:)

So there you go. Poor choice of words. Still waiting to see if Pisgah would ever say anything similarly contrite.
 

pisgah101

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Dec 26, 2005
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Hah! He wrote at the same time I did:)

So there you go. Poor choice of words. Still waiting to see if Pisgah would ever say anything similarly contrite.

Huh? You aren't as bad as dat and u did at least try to explain what I meant.. you are pretty darn condescending though so therefor I'm done lol but I'll talk basketball with u still
 

dukephysics

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Jul 27, 2016
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Bad choice of words, just saying given American history a white male young or old can never shock me by saying some racist sh*t. I expect it lol.
Well then you need to find some new white people to hang out with. Some of us do care about our fellow Americans (regardless of color) and the sh*t they are going through. I hope we can grab a beer some day.
 

hart2chesson

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Oct 13, 2012
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That's cheap, and I expected better from you, Hart... I've certainly never said anything like that to you.

You can sure dish it out, but evidently cant take it. Besides I said nothing derogatory about you. I merely acknowledged Pisgah's post in a way which I understood his POV. Sorry Dude, you're way off base here buddy.

OFC
 
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hart2chesson

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Huh? You aren't as bad as dat and u did at least try to explain what I meant.. you are pretty darn condescending though so therefor I'm done lol but I'll talk basketball with u still

I agree w/this! Dude I really enjoy talking hoops with you. Like Mac I believe your "heart is in the right place." OFC
 
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