OT: Anthem demonstrations

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denverexpat

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Feb 1, 2006
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This is off topic, but do make sure to look at what national trends were, especially before Obama took office, before you start labeling him as the worst of all time. Also take into account six years of a Republican legislative branch that actively and openly worked to obstruct at all turns. I mean, they said openly this was their plan. President doesn't pass laws, he just signs them.

That "worst of all time" label looks ESPECIALLY foolish when you take into account stats like a doubling of the DOW to record highs, a recovery from the greatest recession of modern times, the preservation of the American auto industry, a return of housing values, tens of millions of Americans getting health insurance... oh, and the killing of this guy named Osama;)

I suggest you do a bit of reading, about guys like Nixon or Carter or Johnson or... well, there were a bunch... before trying to label Obama as the worst president of all time. It makes you sound either uneducated (not meant as an insult, just mean literally) or very young.

Unfortunately, this reply to ACCHopps response shows the divide that we are in....both well reasoned arguments ( mostly) but bias to the side of the aisle favored by the poster. I post only to show that there is still a yours or mine mentality to who is in the WH and until it becomes an "our president" conversation nothing is going to get better. The divide will continue to grow. Protests continue to widen the gap and until an event or a movement emerges to unite us it will only get worse.
 
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Liftee

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Mar 6, 2011
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This thread (hopefully) shows this country's greatest strength. We can tolerate differing views and still at the end of the day can be friends and Duke fans. I have friends who differ wildly on politics with me. We good naturedly argue but laugh it off and we all root for the U.S. Olympic teams and are proud that our nation is the best in the world.
 
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Voldukie

Junior
Mar 14, 2002
694
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I believe in the Constitution of the United States. As an officer of the Court, I believe in the exercise and applicability of an individuals rights as assigned and articulated by the Constitution, including the First Amendment guarantees of Freedom of Speech and Expression. That said, I also believe in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th ....27th et.al. and believe that the freedoms provided should not be infringed, and individuals should not be persecuted for the exercise thereof.. Any limitation of these freedoms is tyranny on its face - the prevention of which is the express reason the framers articulated these rights to individuals in the Bill of Rights.
 
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TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
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Did Mike Tomlin serve ? If not why should he be able to criticize Villanueva a veteran of 3 tours for exercising his right to stand for the anthem?

Because Villanueva agreed to do something, and then did something else, which ended up making some of his teammates look a little bad, especially ones who WOULD have stood for the anthem but didn't because they all agree to do something as a team. Now they look like they don't care about the anthem, or that they are less patriotic than Villanueva?

The coach asked one thing of them; they all had to do something together. Because, you know... they are a team. He didn't care if they all stood for the anthem, or all kneeled, or all locked arms; as the coach of the team, a football team, a team that needs to stay connected and together and a TEAM, he simply asked they all do it together.

They all agreed to. Al, mostly accidently, didn't. The coach simply said that the team had agreed to do something, and he wished that Al had done it. He also said Villanueva is a great man, and that he appreciates his service, and so on and so forth. So did a number of his teammates, guys who know him well, are friends with him, who work with him, who "fight" in the NFL "trenches" with him.

In fact, Villanueva explained what happened and apologized to both his teammates and coach about it. He even said that his coach is as patriotic a man as he knows. It seems he got it.

A team decided, as a team, how to handle something. One guy did something that sort of violated that. The coach said he wished that didn't happen, because it brought attention to the team and the players in a way they didn't want to have happen.

That's it.

Too many people are trying to make this something it wasn't.

Unfortunately, this reply to ACCHopps response shows the divide that we are in....both well reasoned arguments ( mostly) but bias to the side of the aisle favored by the poster. I post only to show that there is still a yours or mine mentality to who is in the WH and until it becomes an "our president" conversation nothing is going to get better. The divide will continue to grow. Protests continue to widen the gap and until an event or a movement emerges to unite us it will only get worse.

I suppose... I don't really look at Obama as a "mine" sort of thing... plenty wrong... but come on now, worst president of all time?

I have issues with over the top rhetoric from anyone of any political stripe.
 

TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
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This thread (hopefully) shows this country's greatest strength. We can tolerate differing views and still at the end of the day can be friends and Duke fans. I have friends who differ wildly on politics with me. We good naturedly argue but laugh it off and we all root for the U.S. Olympic teams and are proud that our nation is the best in the world.

I am often able to have political discussion with peoples of different stripes. It is more difficult online, where A) you are exposed to people whose level of education (in terms of being well informed, as well as education in the traditional sense) is not always at the level of the people I regularly engage and B) people seem to have this feeling that you can be an ******* behind a computer screen. That's when things generally go sideways.
 

timo0402

Heisman
Feb 24, 2009
13,868
13,709
57
Unfortunately, this reply to ACCHopps response shows the divide that we are in....both well reasoned arguments ( mostly) but bias to the side of the aisle favored by the poster. I post only to show that there is still a yours or mine mentality to who is in the WH and until it becomes an "our president" conversation nothing is going to get better. The divide will continue to grow. Protests continue to widen the gap and until an event or a movement emerges to unite us it will only get worse.
To me this hits the nail on the head. There is so much division and polarizing takes on both sides and it continues to get worse. Perhaps the night is darkest before the dawn, but once every few weeks it's something else that divides people on one side or the other. You get extreme emotions from both sides that virtually pin them in a you're either against us or you're with us, no middle ground. Personally, I think it's done on purpose, by a number of groups. There is so much hypocrisy on both sides it's quite comical. You have multiple people on both ends throwing out statements as fact that are at absolute best skewed, and at worst completely made up. I try and go by the golden rule, that you treat others as you want to be treated. As cliche as it is, usually when you do that you can have an open and honest conversation. You don't have to walk on egg shells bc you're worried about offending someone. You can just speak openly but politely. Learn something. Ask the right questions. Ask people what it's like for them, why and what they would like to see done differently.

Secondly, and just as important as listening and treating others with respect. You have to do it for yourself. You have to do it for your family, your community etc. stop waiting for govt or some other activist group or political party to claim to be the one that will help you and ultimately leave you hanging bc they have other agendas and priorities. Step up and make the choice that you're going to get your family out of poverty, out of the ruins or whatever you are fighting for. What makes this country better than any other in the history of mankind isn't that we are perfect or have a perfect history, or still don't have serious issues, it's ultimately that with hard work, perservearance and toughness you have the opportunity to control your destiny, or at least make something of yourself. Making excuses is so easy- deck is stacked against me, I don't have the same chances or opportunities as that person or that group. Maybe not, life isn't fair. But that doesn't mean you have no chance and no choice.

I'm so sick of the bickering, finger pointing and polarizing stances. The political climate today is toxic, you need to do it on your own. This country affords you that opportunity, and you and you alone have the keys.
 

TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
To me this hits the nail on the head. There is so much division and polarizing takes on both sides and it continues to get worse. Perhaps the night is darkest before the dawn, but once every few weeks it's something else that divides people on one side or the other. You get extreme emotions from both sides that virtually pin them in a you're either against us or you're with us, no middle ground. Personally, I think it's done on purpose, by a number of groups. There is so much hypocrisy on both sides it's quite comical. You have multiple people on both ends throwing out statements as fact that are at absolute best skewed, and at worst completely made up. I try and go by the golden rule, that you treat others as you want to be treated. As cliche as it is, usually when you do that you can have an open and honest conversation. You don't have to walk on egg shells bc you're worried about offending someone. You can just speak openly but politely. Learn something. Ask the right questions. Ask people what it's like for them, why and what they would like to see done differently.

Secondly, and just as important as listening and treating others with respect. You have to do it for yourself. You have to do it for your family, your community etc. stop waiting for govt or some other activist group or political party to claim to be the one that will help you and ultimately leave you hanging bc they have other agendas and priorities. Step up and make the choice that you're going to get your family out of poverty, out of the ruins or whatever you are fighting for. What makes this country better than any other in the history of mankind isn't that we are perfect or have a perfect history, or still don't have serious issues, it's ultimately that with hard work, perservearance and toughness you have the opportunity to control your destiny, or at least make something of yourself. Making excuses is so easy- deck is stacked against me, I don't have the same chances or opportunities as that person or that group. Maybe not, life isn't fair. But that doesn't mean you have no chance and no choice.

I'm so sick of the bickering, finger pointing and polarizing stances. The political climate today is toxic, you need to do it on your own. This country affords you that opportunity, and you and you alone have the keys.

Timo, while I appreciate your post, and agree with a lot of it... this part...

This country affords you that opportunity, and you and you alone have the keys.

... is not equally true for all Americans. Not every American has that same opportunity. Sometimes it is because of economics. Sometimes it is because of education. Sometimes it is because of race.

But not everyone see this. Some people take this as a cop out, as a lazy person's excuse, instead of understanding that not everyone has the same experiences.

That's a big part of the issue, the inability to have empathy, to understand another persons experiences, to understand that they exist and are valid.
 
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Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
9,504
13,737
107
To me this hits the nail on the head. There is so much division and polarizing takes on both sides and it continues to get worse. Perhaps the night is darkest before the dawn, but once every few weeks it's something else that divides people on one side or the other. You get extreme emotions from both sides that virtually pin them in a you're either against us or you're with us, no middle ground. Personally, I think it's done on purpose, by a number of groups. There is so much hypocrisy on both sides it's quite comical. You have multiple people on both ends throwing out statements as fact that are at absolute best skewed, and at worst completely made up. I try and go by the golden rule, that you treat others as you want to be treated. As cliche as it is, usually when you do that you can have an open and honest conversation. You don't have to walk on egg shells bc you're worried about offending someone. You can just speak openly but politely. Learn something. Ask the right questions. Ask people what it's like for them, why and what they would like to see done differently.

Secondly, and just as important as listening and treating others with respect. You have to do it for yourself. You have to do it for your family, your community etc. stop waiting for govt or some other activist group or political party to claim to be the one that will help you and ultimately leave you hanging bc they have other agendas and priorities. Step up and make the choice that you're going to get your family out of poverty, out of the ruins or whatever you are fighting for. What makes this country better than any other in the history of mankind isn't that we are perfect or have a perfect history, or still don't have serious issues, it's ultimately that with hard work, perservearance and toughness you have the opportunity to control your destiny, or at least make something of yourself. Making excuses is so easy- deck is stacked against me, I don't have the same chances or opportunities as that person or that group. Maybe not, life isn't fair. But that doesn't mean you have no chance and no choice.

I'm so sick of the bickering, finger pointing and polarizing stances. The political climate today is toxic, you need to do it on your own. This country affords you that opportunity, and you and you alone have the keys.
BOOM! So glad you said this. We are not a perfect country, things are not fair for a lot of people, but blaming others does nothing more than keep things divided. I don't have the answers, but one thing I do know is blaming someone is not fixing anything. Just like Coach K. We may complain about him, maybe some of the complaints are right, BUT, he's the best coach, and who could we replace him with? Same for our country, where else can we have the opportunities that we have?
We may have a ways to go, but are things better now for folks as a whole as compared to years ago?
We just had our first black president in history, is that not progress?
 

hart2chesson

Heisman
Oct 13, 2012
14,303
16,574
0
I'm done with the overpaid babies of the NFL and every real American will be too. If you live here in a free country and can't respect that and stand and be proud please leave and I don't care who you are. And if it creeps into college sports I'll turn it off too #AmericanPride all this stunt does is make people angry. If they truly care about what they say get off your millionaire butt and go help people that need it or start an organization to combat what you think needs fixing. Have a news conference and let people know how you feel but DO NOT disrespect my country.

Great post Pis....

OFC
 

dukebluesTX

All-Conference
Mar 29, 2017
1,376
1,478
68
I am beyond tired of politics and sports being mixed together. It would be nice to be able to escape all the political bitching while watching a game. ESPN is a joke now, practically an arm of CNN's "news" room. I don't need athletes, actors or media members getting on their high horse and telling me what is right or wrong in their opinion.
 

acc hoops

All-Conference
Mar 24, 2004
2,651
1,176
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This is off topic, but do make sure to look at what national trends were, especially before Obama took office, before you start labeling him as the worst of all time. Also take into account six years of a Republican legislative branch that actively and openly worked to obstruct at all turns. I mean, they said openly this was their plan. President doesn't pass laws, he just signs them.

That "worst of all time" label looks ESPECIALLY foolish when you take into account stats like a doubling of the DOW to record highs, a recovery from the greatest recession of modern times, the preservation of the American auto industry, a return of housing values, tens of millions of Americans getting health insurance... oh, and the killing of this guy named Osama;)

I suggest you do a bit of reading, about guys like Nixon or Carter or Johnson or... well, there were a bunch... before trying to label Obama as the worst president of all time. It makes you sound either uneducated (not meant as an insult, just mean literally) or very young.
Uneducated? I went to Duke. I am also a Veteran. I am not young.
I believe I have a right to my opinion.
 

dukephysics

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2016
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Why does the NFL pick and choose which demonstration it will allow ?
Dallas players wanted to wear a small emblem on their helmet to honor the 5 cops killed but the NFL said no. One black player wanted to wear pink cleats to honor his mother fighting breat cancer. NFL said no.
Another black player wanted to wear red/white/blue cleats on 9/11. The NFL said no.
If the league is going to accept close to a billion dollars from taxpayers I think they should have clear cut rules for the players concerning pregame ceremonies.
This is a uniform issue. Like it or not (I don't), the NFL has decided on strict uniform rules that prohibit all those things you mentioned.
The current protests are not uniform related so it is a different issue.
 

timo0402

Heisman
Feb 24, 2009
13,868
13,709
57
Timo, while I appreciate your post, and agree with a lot of it... this part...

This country affords you that opportunity, and you and you alone have the keys.

... is not equally true for all Americans. Not every American has that same opportunity. Sometimes it is because of economics. Sometimes it is because of education. Sometimes it is because of race.

But not everyone see this. Some people take this as a cop out, as a lazy person's excuse, instead of understanding that not everyone has the same experiences.

That's a big part of the issue, the inability to have empathy, to understand another persons experiences, to understand that they exist and are valid.
Dude I said exactly that though. Life isn't fair. It doesn't mean that you can't be helped, but ultimately and the point I was making is it falls on you.
 

Devilinside

All-Conference
Dec 30, 2010
2,214
2,166
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A few thoughts.

First, a lot of people posting here I've never seen before. That's interesting, but I do hope nobody is creating accounts that aren't truthful to push an agenda.

Second, the "love it or leave it" view is simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive, and in fact it is the EPITOME of unAmerican. You want love it or leave it? Go to Iran, or North Korea. People rant about showing respect for soldiers and veterans and those who have died for our country? Well, those Americans died in part to ensure we remain a country of people who have the right to protest peacefully.

Third, likewise, the idea that the flag is only about our military and veterans, and that anyone kneeling during the salute is somehow insulting them, despite the fact that nobody who has taken part in this form of protest has ever said anything of the sort, is likewise simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive. Please, we desperately need people to stop clinging to these positions of absolutism and understand that isn't how the world works, and we also need people to actually listen to what is being said and stop this insincere layering of ones own issues and thoughts over the actions of others, especially when said actions have been explicitly explained to not be that way.

Fourth, some of the greatest pieces of America came to be through uncomfortable protest, and worse. Slavery ended through protest and eventually conflict, women got the right to vote through protest and eventually conflict... the country came to be through protest and eventually conflict! While the current protests are not as focused as those examples, with as obvious desired outcomes, let's not forget that much good can come from uncomfortable protest, as it raises awareness and galvanizes Americans.

Fifth, the fact that the guys who are protesting are millionaires means nothing. They are still Americans... being rich doesn't change that. And the fact that many of them come from backgrounds where they have encountered racism and inequality and are now in a position to have a platform and voice... and they are willing to endanger that in order to make a point? I give them a lot of respect for that.

Sixth, our country still has major problems with race. I can get more detailed if people wish (two of my degrees from Duke were in history and African American studies) but there are a bevy of facts that support that. Blacks are convicted at much higher rates than whites in similar circumstances, blacks are given more jail time than whites in similar circumstances, black soldiers are disciplined by our military justice system at a much higher rate than white soldiers... and its only now, with the advent of the iPhone (which makes it easy to record) and Facebook/Twitter (which makes it easy to share said recordings) that much of white America is finally seeing what black America has been dealing with for decades. It makes some white Americans very uncomfortable, and some go to extreme lengths to try to deny that there is any serious issue, insisting that everything is fair and equal against all reasonable evidence. The sooner we can all accept that there are still big issues with race in this country, issues that impact all Americans of all races, and we can start to have honest discussions about it, the better,

Seventh, I've never sat for the anthem. In fact, I worked in sports for years, and heard the anthem a LOT. And I always made sure to take a moment during it to reflect on the goodness my country has afforded me, because I thought it was bad to simply stand like a robot. But I also realize it is a song and a flapping piece of cloth, and if someone isn't feeling the same way I am about that song and that flapping piece of cloth, that is their experience. I'm not going to crap on it; I am the type to want to learn more about why they feel that way. I think that is a far more useful approach.

Eighth, on a practical matter... let's not pretend that the anthem, and players standing, is some important aspect of football. It isn't. In fact, it only started a few years ago, and only because the US military paid the NFL to have players do it in order to help with recruiting, my guess is primarily among minorities. So don't act like it is some created-by-God, essential to the universe thing... it all came to be because of a government program aimed at symbolism and increasing military recruiting.

Ninth, we do need, as a nation, to be a bit less sensitive in letting people ask questions and debate certain topics. A certain element of Americans desperately wants to ask questions about how the fragmented black family became a thing, about why crime is so prevalent in black communities, about why so many black men are in jail. Sometimes we discourage this and act offended by it, when really it is something that needs to be discussed, or it will be this lingering doubt in some people's head. That said, these people also then need to LISTEN to the answers they get... too often they simply refuse to listen to people with more experience, more education, more information.

Tenth, many Americans need to have more conversations with people of different colors. When I hear some of the mind blowing stuff and stances that some white Americans take, I can't help but think "Good lord... do you actually TALK to any black people about this stuff?" I have had the great fortune of being close to a lot of black people in my life... lived in a black frat, worked with black athletes, taught black kids, talk to the same group of black dudes every night... and it has gone a long way towards helping me understand things.

Finally, I think Duke basketball fans should remember... our favorite basketball team is largely made up of young black men. Don't be saying things that you wouldn't say to their faces, and if you are truly a fan, a real fan, you should always be ready to understand what many young black men go through (including our guys), how many young black men feel about these issues (including our guys), and be ready to support them... if you actually have respect and care for them beyond just that they wear a certain jersey and throw a ball through a hoop.

Anyway.... I know some will be all like "tl/dr" but I hope on a Duke forum that will be the minority.
This is a typical sermon from you based upon the facts that you have undergraduate degrees from a school which is a bastion of liberalism and political correctness, which degrees make you an expert at nothing, except perhaps blaming whites for all black sociological problems and citing outlandish, unsupported alleged statistics. It might have helped your perspective to pursue a degree in criminal justice from a school which offered it. The fact of the matter is that the US government does not report or make available statistics which would paint blacks in a bad light, even though they probably exist. I will bet that if it did, the per capita incidence of violent crime in the black community greatly exceeds the same number in any other racial community. I would also bet that the claim that blacks get longer sentences than whites has nothing to do with racism, but is a function of the fact that there is more recidivism among blacks. And so on with the other unsupported and unsupportable claims you make. It is implicit in your argument that a police officer is more likely to shoot a black suspect simply because the officer does not like black people. I would like to see some statistics on that one. Maybe you are right and I am wrong about those things; however, we will probably never know because the government will never report honestly.

So where are we today? A disproportionate percentage of black people are unemployed. The crime rate in the black community, even black-on-black crime, is at an outrageous level. A large portion of black children are born out of wedlock and without paternal influence.

Disrespecting the flag and this country by NFL players is itself a divisive and selfish act. There are better ways to for the players to make their point, as Dallas showed last night. And understand one thing, the players had no constitutional right under the First Amendment to highjack television coverage to air their personal views. I have explained to you in this forum that citizens do not have a right under the Constitution to say whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want, or wherever they want. The constitution is solely a limit on the government's power to limit speech in most circumstances. Government interference is not an issue with these disrespectful protests.

As for Colin Kaepernick, he is hardly a good candidate to spearhead the player movement. It is seldom mentioned that he and his girlfriend are ardent supporters of the Black Panthers, whose penchant for killing policemen is an historical fact.

Is it your position that a policeman, white or black, should not have the right to use deadly force against a black person when the policeman has a reasonable belief that the suspect poses a real threat to his life?

Finally, it is an unfortunate fact of life here in America and elsewhere that there is a small minority of white people who, for whatever reason, hate and distrust blacks, just as there are blacks who distrust and hate white people. What I have yet to hear out of the Kaepernick movement are concrete suggestions as to steps the government should take to combat racism, without actually interfering with anyone's constitutional rights.

So ends my sermon. Pax vobiscum.
 

K-oach Q

All-Conference
Nov 18, 2009
5,517
1,831
0
I haven't taking the time to read this thread...nor do I like to get into "Political" conversations much...they tend to lead nowhere...

I'm a die hard Steelers Fan...I cancelled my families tickets to the Jacksonville game..which is disappointing because I've never actually been considering I'm from PA..went to school close, and have a cabin in the mountains about 2hrs from there...

I do not disagree with a persons right to protest or be heard...but I feel the message has been corrupted..what was supposed to be about police brutality and minorities equal rights..is now about POTUS...what I don't agree with is that they will protest and demonstrate and tell you its about one thing...when its really not now...I'm not sure they even know what they are protesting at this point...

That being said...I vehemently disagree with the forum of using the Anthem and the Flag in a time of remembrance and unity...if you really want to make a statement then Stand and Respect and Honor our Country and Kneel during the game...don't play...you won't see that happening though....In my family there could be no other thing more disrespectful...

I'm truly appalled by the entire situation...I will not support the NFL or the Steelers...Maybe it's personal to me...I actually can't articulate very well why I even feel so strongly about it...

My Grandfather fought in WWII and when I was little I remember not putting my hand on my heart during the National Anthem....I remember afterwards he grabbed me and looked me in the eye and said "I went and fought for this country..the least you could do is put your hand over your heart as a sign of respect for all those that did the same...I better never see you ever stand there again without your hand on your heart"...I will never forget that...and is the strongest reason to this day that I will always do what my grandfather asked...rest his soul....
 

dukedevilz

Heisman
Apr 3, 2002
15,637
19,600
0
I support anyone's right to protest. This is America. Do what you want. But fans also have the right to boycott the NFL - and to criticize. So let me criticize a little. I agree with some other posters who suggest, "What is this going to accomplish?" It seems to be more divisive than anything else. We want to watch sports, not politics. But the more concerning issue for me, is I believe most of the issues are built on faulty narratives. Most of the players are protesting what they perceive to be social injustices and inequalities. No doubt the African-American community has been impoverished and under-served for a very long time.

But this isn't the 1950's anymore. Things change. We've had a black president, and we have black chiefs of police, black officers, and black members of the armed forces. We have black CEOs, brain surgeons, doctors, and lawyers. If you are black, you are not legally restricted by anything. The problem isn't race, it's culture. Since the civil rights movement, out of wedlock pregnancy has skyrocketed from 28% to over 70%. 1 out of 2 black moms are single mothers. These families usually don't make enough to afford a decent living and have to go on welfare. Black people make up more than 1/4 of food stamp recipients, but in proportion to white people, they are twice as likely to be put on welfare programs. They grow up in poor neighborhoods, with insufficient school funding, and only 68% of black students even graduate high school. Then, they can't get any decent-paying jobs, because high-paying jobs require a fair amount of education or skills. So the cycle continues, and theft and crime rates go up.

Why is 13% of the population responsible for 52% (FBI) of the homicides? According to the CDC, 31% of police homicide victims, from 1999-2013, are black. Criminology professor, Peter Moskos, looked at the numbers of those killed by officers from May 2013 to April 2015, and found that 49 percent were white, while 30 percent were black. “Adjusted for the homicide rate,” says Moskos, “whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.” Murders have actually increased by 17% in the biggest 50 cities in the last year. Do you suppose there’s any correlation with the murder rate and cops feeling apprehensive about patrolling an area where they’re targets? Furthermore, a cop is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black person than a cop killing an unarmed black person (Washington Post). Also the black on black crime is significantly higher than fatalities at the hands of a police officer. The ratio of blacks killing blacks compared to cops killing blacks, is 20:1 (roughly 6,000 to 300).

The homicide rate sucks no matter what statistic or metric you analyze; I certainly don’t mean to disparage or trivialize any death. But, the statistics I see, shows that there are no real discrepancies which point to concrete, racial bias. Does racism exist? Of course it does! But there's an enormous difference between individual racism and institutional racism. I think the bigger issue, is socioeconomic factors. Less than 70% of African-Americans are graduating high school – the income gap between blacks and other races is substantial. But I think the remedy is a better home life. Did you know the poverty rate for single parent white families is 22%, while it’s only 7% for two-parent black families? Being raised in a two-parent home is a far better privilege than being raised to a certain race or ethnicity.

According to the Brookings Institute, there are only 3 things you need to do if you don't want to be permanently poor: Finish high school. Get a job. Don't get pregnant before you get married. That's it. As I mentioned earlier, there is a disproportionate single motherhood rate, and a dropout rate in the black community. The fact that it's disproportionate in the black community doesn't mean that our society is racist. It means that something needs to change inside of the black community and people need to start taking personal responsibility. Personal responsibility for the stuff YOU DO. Change the culture. Better schools, better education, two-parent families.
 

bfort2223

Sophomore
Dec 4, 2009
200
111
0
A few thoughts.

First, a lot of people posting here I've never seen before. That's interesting, but I do hope nobody is creating accounts that aren't truthful to push an agenda.

Second, the "love it or leave it" view is simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive, and in fact it is the EPITOME of unAmerican. You want love it or leave it? Go to Iran, or North Korea. People rant about showing respect for soldiers and veterans and those who have died for our country? Well, those Americans died in part to ensure we remain a country of people who have the right to protest peacefully.

Third, likewise, the idea that the flag is only about our military and veterans, and that anyone kneeling during the salute is somehow insulting them, despite the fact that nobody who has taken part in this form of protest has ever said anything of the sort, is likewise simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive. Please, we desperately need people to stop clinging to these positions of absolutism and understand that isn't how the world works, and we also need people to actually listen to what is being said and stop this insincere layering of ones own issues and thoughts over the actions of others, especially when said actions have been explicitly explained to not be that way.

Fourth, some of the greatest pieces of America came to be through uncomfortable protest, and worse. Slavery ended through protest and eventually conflict, women got the right to vote through protest and eventually conflict... the country came to be through protest and eventually conflict! While the current protests are not as focused as those examples, with as obvious desired outcomes, let's not forget that much good can come from uncomfortable protest, as it raises awareness and galvanizes Americans.

Fifth, the fact that the guys who are protesting are millionaires means nothing. They are still Americans... being rich doesn't change that. And the fact that many of them come from backgrounds where they have encountered racism and inequality and are now in a position to have a platform and voice... and they are willing to endanger that in order to make a point? I give them a lot of respect for that.

Sixth, our country still has major problems with race. I can get more detailed if people wish (two of my degrees from Duke were in history and African American studies) but there are a bevy of facts that support that. Blacks are convicted at much higher rates than whites in similar circumstances, blacks are given more jail time than whites in similar circumstances, black soldiers are disciplined by our military justice system at a much higher rate than white soldiers... and its only now, with the advent of the iPhone (which makes it easy to record) and Facebook/Twitter (which makes it easy to share said recordings) that much of white America is finally seeing what black America has been dealing with for decades. It makes some white Americans very uncomfortable, and some go to extreme lengths to try to deny that there is any serious issue, insisting that everything is fair and equal against all reasonable evidence. The sooner we can all accept that there are still big issues with race in this country, issues that impact all Americans of all races, and we can start to have honest discussions about it, the better,

Seventh, I've never sat for the anthem. In fact, I worked in sports for years, and heard the anthem a LOT. And I always made sure to take a moment during it to reflect on the goodness my country has afforded me, because I thought it was bad to simply stand like a robot. But I also realize it is a song and a flapping piece of cloth, and if someone isn't feeling the same way I am about that song and that flapping piece of cloth, that is their experience. I'm not going to crap on it; I am the type to want to learn more about why they feel that way. I think that is a far more useful approach.

Eighth, on a practical matter... let's not pretend that the anthem, and players standing, is some important aspect of football. It isn't. In fact, it only started a few years ago, and only because the US military paid the NFL to have players do it in order to help with recruiting, my guess is primarily among minorities. So don't act like it is some created-by-God, essential to the universe thing... it all came to be because of a government program aimed at symbolism and increasing military recruiting.

Ninth, we do need, as a nation, to be a bit less sensitive in letting people ask questions and debate certain topics. A certain element of Americans desperately wants to ask questions about how the fragmented black family became a thing, about why crime is so prevalent in black communities, about why so many black men are in jail. Sometimes we discourage this and act offended by it, when really it is something that needs to be discussed, or it will be this lingering doubt in some people's head. That said, these people also then need to LISTEN to the answers they get... too often they simply refuse to listen to people with more experience, more education, more information.

Tenth, many Americans need to have more conversations with people of different colors. When I hear some of the mind blowing stuff and stances that some white Americans take, I can't help but think "Good lord... do you actually TALK to any black people about this stuff?" I have had the great fortune of being close to a lot of black people in my life... lived in a black frat, worked with black athletes, taught black kids, talk to the same group of black dudes every night... and it has gone a long way towards helping me understand things.

Finally, I think Duke basketball fans should remember... our favorite basketball team is largely made up of young black men. Don't be saying things that you wouldn't say to their faces, and if you are truly a fan, a real fan, you should always be ready to understand what many young black men go through (including our guys), how many young black men feel about these issues (including our guys), and be ready to support them... if you actually have respect and care for them beyond just that they wear a certain jersey and throw a ball through a hoop.

Anyway.... I know some will be all like "tl/dr" but I hope on a Duke forum that will be the minority.

Once again, thanks for the words. Hopefully some on here will take them to heart this time.
 

dukesince91

All-American
Mar 16, 2012
3,598
6,602
98
I support anyone's right to protest. This is America. Do what you want. But fans also have the right to boycott the NFL - and to criticize. So let me criticize a little. I agree with some other posters who suggest, "What is this going to accomplish?" It seems to be more divisive than anything else. We want to watch sports, not politics. But the more concerning issue for me, is I believe most of the issues are built on faulty narratives. Most of the players are protesting what they perceive to be social injustices and inequalities. No doubt the African-American community has been impoverished and under-served for a very long time.

But this isn't the 1950's anymore. Things change. We've had a black president, and we have black chiefs of police, black officers, and black members of the armed forces. We have black CEOs, brain surgeons, doctors, and lawyers. If you are black, you are not legally restricted by anything. The problem isn't race, it's culture. Since the civil rights movement, out of wedlock pregnancy has skyrocketed from 28% to over 70%. 1 out of 2 black moms are single mothers. These families usually don't make enough to afford a decent living and have to go on welfare. Black people make up more than 1/4 of food stamp recipients, but in proportion to white people, they are twice as likely to be put on welfare programs. They grow up in poor neighborhoods, with insufficient school funding, and only 68% of black students even graduate high school. Then, they can't get any decent-paying jobs, because high-paying jobs require a fair amount of education or skills. So the cycle continues, and theft and crime rates go up.

Why is 13% of the population responsible for 52% (FBI) of the homicides? According to the CDC, 31% of police homicide victims, from 1999-2013, are black. Criminology professor, Peter Moskos, looked at the numbers of those killed by officers from May 2013 to April 2015, and found that 49 percent were white, while 30 percent were black. “Adjusted for the homicide rate,” says Moskos, “whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.” Murders have actually increased by 17% in the biggest 50 cities in the last year. Do you suppose there’s any correlation with the murder rate and cops feeling apprehensive about patrolling an area where they’re targets? Furthermore, a cop is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black person than a cop killing an unarmed black person (Washington Post). Also the black on black crime is significantly higher than fatalities at the hands of a police officer. The ratio of blacks killing blacks compared to cops killing blacks, is 20:1 (roughly 6,000 to 300).

The homicide rate sucks no matter what statistic or metric you analyze; I certainly don’t mean to disparage or trivialize any death. But, the statistics I see, shows that there are no real discrepancies which point to concrete, racial bias. Does racism exist? Of course it does! But there's an enormous difference between individual racism and institutional racism. I think the bigger issue, is socioeconomic factors. Less than 70% of African-Americans are graduating high school – the income gap between blacks and other races is substantial. But I think the remedy is a better home life. Did you know the poverty rate for single parent white families is 22%, while it’s only 7% for two-parent black families? Being raised in a two-parent home is a far better privilege than being raised to a certain race or ethnicity.

According to the Brookings Institute, there are only 3 things you need to do if you don't want to be permanently poor: Finish high school. Get a job. Don't get pregnant before you get married. That's it. As I mentioned earlier, there is a disproportionate single motherhood rate, and a dropout rate in the black community. The fact that it's disproportionate in the black community doesn't mean that our society is racist. It means that something needs to change inside of the black community and people need to start taking personal responsibility. Personal responsibility for the stuff YOU DO. Change the culture. Better schools, better education, two-parent families.
You hit the nail on the head about being raised in a two parent home!
 

hart2chesson

Heisman
Oct 13, 2012
14,303
16,574
0
Get your hands dirty I say to the NFL players grandstanding by not showing respect to our country's most revered symbol. Establish foundations for the underprivileged, the struggling, etc. Take it to the grass roots level, and organize meaningful dialogue with leaders at the local, state and federal levels.

As long as you're on an NFL roster on Sunday afternoons with thousands paying hard earned money and bringing their children to watch you play, keep the "games" at home. You have the same opportunities as your peers on the field.Focus on football, and take your protests to places where it can REALLY make a difference...

OFC
 

BOOGIEMAN1914

All-Conference
May 15, 2007
7,714
2,023
113
The black statistics are insane (but it is also a fact that blacks mainly kill blacks and whites mainly kill whites....its about proximity and blacks are mainly in impoverished areas right on top of each other literally), but until you walk in those shoes, be born into those situations, live in those environments it is hard to fathom....my take is that the black fiber was set back because of the effects of slavery and the horrors of the civil rights era when so many blacks were lynched, hung, killed, terrorized....the black family dynamic was thwarted in a sense with so many good men senselessly killed, the pool dwindled in a sense.....the drive to take and get (crime and drug use) prevailed and many are in the situations that they are in because of this....its easy to say everyone has a fair shake, but in reality it isn't true...........the same as we as men would never know what it is like to be a woman and to have a life grow inside them and give birth....the same can be said in regards to being black in this country, if you ain't, you'd never know just how difficult simple things that you take for granted aren't so simple when your skin is a different color
 
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TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
Uneducated? I went to Duke. I am also a Veteran. I am not young.
I believe I have a right to my opinion.

Education is not just about going to school, unless your definition of education is INCREDIBLY limited.

But when you name someone THE WORST PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME, a guy who was president when 20 million+ Americans got health care, when the DOW doubled, when unemployment halved... you DO sound uneducated about American history and presidencies. Sorry, you just do. Do you know nothing about Andrew Johnson and Reconstruction? Do you know nothing about Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression? Do you know nothing about Warren Harding, and the incredible corruption that came with him? I mean, George Bush was President and CiC when we suffered the worst attack on the homeland since Pearl Harbor and was President during the worst economic collapse since the Depression.

And yes, you have the right to an opinion... but when that opinion seems completely unsupported by fact, don't expect people to treat said opinion as seriously as an opinion supported by fact and reason.

Good lord, nothing on earth annoys me as much as this idea that all opinions are equally valid. That is garbage. Opinions are not somehow some sacred thing that is beyond analysis or reproach.
 

TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
Please note that I attacked no one for their opinion. I only offered mine .

No problem . Not my first time expressing my opinion to a liberal and getting their response.

Oh no no no... lets not be playing the poor victim here.

You made a pretty extreme statement... that Obama was the WORST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY.

I challenged that pretty extreme statement and said "I suggest you do a bit of reading, about guys like Nixon or Carter or Johnson or... well, there were a bunch... before trying to label Obama as the worst president of all time. It makes you sound either uneducated (not meant as an insult, just mean literally) or very young."

As I said, SPECIFICALLY, it was not meant as an insult. But it DOES sound rather uneducated in terms of US presidential history, or like someone who is very young (many young Americans having only been politically conscious for Obama's presidency.)

Oh, and I said it was foolish.

Unless you have the thinnest of skin, saying an extreme position like "WORST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY" is foolish and sounds uneducated is not some vile, personal attack. If that was really terrible, again, sorry, not meant to be an insult.

Maybe this isn't the first time you've expressed a pretty radical idea, and had someone come back at you with actual facts and history. I don't know. But you'd do much better if you actually tried to address the points I brought up. How do you put Obama, with the "achievements" I posted above, below Harding or Bush II or Johnson or Jackson or even Jimmy Carter?
 
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500HP_Devil

All-Conference
Mar 17, 2016
2,267
3,274
0
I truly hate politics and refuse to let my life be engulfed in it. I've lost friends over it and just don't understand the insanity around it so I try to avoid it. I have friends that obsess literally over Rep vs dem 24/7 and I honestly feel sorry for them. I do stand also but respect others rights to peacefully protest. I think I would vote for the Rock if he ran :)

Thanks to retiredsoldier and the others that have served. We are blessed to have people as courageous as you.


Really looking for to this boards great uniter - THIS YEAR'S AMAZING TEAM!!!!
 

TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
If you think Nixon was a bad president you need a serious lesson lol

I know a bit about Nixon. In fact, he lived in my town for years (and gave out nearly empty pens for Halloween, which was somehow wonderfully appropriate.) I'd be happy to hear an argument about why Nixon was a better president than Obama. Nixon was CERTAINLY smart and capable and had a lot of positives... but there was a lot of negative coming out there too.

My point was largely in response to the assertion that Obama was the worst president in history. If you'd like, replace Nixon with Carter, as I did in my posts... still struggle to see Obama as the worst ever.
 

SoCal_Dukie3

All-Conference
Jul 8, 2017
2,387
2,607
0
And let's be honest here; obama wasn't the worst POTUS. That being said, he was pretty bad, especially from an economic perspective. Just a sample:

- record government dependence
- record people out of work AND who simply gave up looking
- a massively flawed "insurance for all" plan where the core problem was completely ignored aka a bandaid on an arterial wound
- increased racial tensions (more subjective but certainly debatable)

Shall I continue? Or was it all the "others sides" fault?
 
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TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
And let's be honest here; obama wasn't the worst POTUS. That being said, he was pretty bad, especially from an economic perspective. Just a sample:

- record government dependence
- record people out of work AND who simply gave up looking
- a massively flawed "insurance for all" plan where the core problem was completely ignored aka a bandaid on an arterial wound
- increased racial tensions (more subjective but certainly debatable)

Shall I continue? Or was it all the "others sides" fault?

Should I bother? Or will you just write off whatever I say?
 

SoCal_Dukie3

All-Conference
Jul 8, 2017
2,387
2,607
0
Should I bother? Or will you just write off whatever I say?

There are no objections to the first 3 (statistical fact for 1 and 2 and 3 is also fact), and for 4 I could care less about your opinion. And apologies, I forgot to place you on ignore. I'll do that now.
 

dbav

All-American
Mar 14, 2014
8,042
5,875
0
...but I feel the message has been corrupted..what was supposed to be about police brutality and minorities equal rights..is now about POTUS...

This is what I think the problem is, and why I abhor 24 hour news services. There is so much noise (from both sides) that it is hard to stay on point. Too many agendas can cloud the issue and it gets muddled.

That being said, I understand completely why POTUS is now the focal point. He basically went into an international forum and stated that the serious concern they have is a nonissue. If the prior president had done the same thing, he would have taken the same flack. Frankly, I think he did the protesters a big favor by getting involved and he fanned the flame. In doing so, he made himself a part of the discussion when he didn't have to be.
 
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Tlass

Junior
Sep 26, 2011
399
325
0
I would like to think we as a nation have closed the gap between black and white divide.. Then you see This
Maybe back to Africa where they sold your ancestors to Europeans suits you better?

As an black man..That was a pretty low and insensitive comment.. Good job for the posters for not going off on the deep end. I literally had to count to 10 before I responded.
 

TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
I would like to think we as a nation have closed the gap between black and white divide.. Then you see This


As an black man..That was a pretty low and insensitive comment.. Good job for the posters for not going off on the deep end. I literally had to count to 10 before I responded.

Good restraint. While this might sound silly, I don't think @pisgah101 MEANT it to be offensive... I think he genuinely is proposing that the country of Africa (you know what I mean) is not as good as America.

Or something. Not sure if that makes it better.

But yeah. Our country is in a bit of nutty-time. Hey, as someone said earlier in this thread... its always darkest before the dawn. Before we got out of Vietnam, it was BAD. Before we passed the Civil RIghts Act, it was BAD. Before we passed the 13th and 14th amendments, it was REALLY BAD. Its okay for a country to go through these things, as long as we come out better in the end, and it is too late to say there is no chance of that.
 
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dukephysics

All-Conference
Jul 27, 2016
1,109
1,365
0
Good restraint. While this might sound silly, I don't think Pisgah MEANT it to be offensive... I think he genuinely is proposing that the country of Africa (you know what I mean) is not as good as America.

Or something.

But yeah. Our country is in a bit of nutty-time. Hey, as someone said earlier in this thread... its always darkest before the dawn. Before we got out of Vietnam, it was BAD. Before we passed the Civil RIghts Act, it was BAD. Before we passed the 13th and 14th amendments, it was REALLY BAD. Its okay for a country to go through these things, as long as we come out better in the end, and it is too late to say there is no chance of that.
Don't forget before the 21st Amendment!
(just trying to keep it light hearted)
 
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ncaa9636

Freshman
Dec 8, 2011
45
51
0
Did Mike Tomlin serve ? If not why should he be able to criticize Villanueva a veteran of 3 tours for exercising his right to stand for the anthem?
It's the difference between not serving and being a draft dodger. Millions haven't served but would if they got the call. Trump got the call and said no thanks. My feet hurt. Pretty unpatriotic.
 
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TheDude1

Heisman
Apr 15, 2010
8,726
11,199
0
Don't forget before the 21st Amendment!
(just trying to keep it light hearted)

Hah! True, those were some BAD years!

Dude, when I teach about prohibition, you can literally see the absolute shock on the students' faces. Then come the disbelieving questions...

"Wait... so beer was illegal?"

"Yes."

"Wine?"

"Yes."

"But my mom has wine every night with dinner. Would that be illegal?"

"Yes. And don't go telling everyone your mom drinks wine every night."

I love teaching about that era of American history:) When I make the connection between Al Capone and that era and the fact that liquor was illegal... its like watching a light turn on.
 
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