OT: Anthem demonstrations
- Thread starter Willcampbell
- Start date
- Status
I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's been out of the country for a long time and had no access to any stateside news at all.
The inequalties that remain are based on legacies of economic control. Access to the best opportunities in this country are still mostly the hands of the wealthy which are disproportionally white due to a 150 year old legacy. I think we've moved past trying to engineer equality with special rules. What we need now is to break down the actual perceptions that dark skin is somehow bad. The responsibility is on everyone to come together and get it done. We need to be in school with one another, eating dinner with one another and working together hand in hand.
i truly believe that many would sing a different tune if their ancestors where subjected to the horrors and atrocities of slavery.....if many generations and lineages where wiped out because of....if they had to traverse this country in darker skin other than skin that they are in any time period from then and even now...you would see this great place very differently...imo
I just feel you can protest in other ways. You have your opinion, I have mine. What is kneeling during the National Anthem actually going to accomplish? The only thing I see happening is that now our country will end up taking away the Anthem and more and more of society will get to the point where they could care less about our great country. If it's so bad here, then what country would you prefer to live in?
Thanks for adding a very substantive point of view to this thread. Being American is very problematic to define rigidly and yet still very divisive because so many are adamant about keeping a very restrictive definition in place.
I've met many soldiers and my grandfather fought in Vietnam and I think some people would be very surprised to find the range of perspectives among soldiers regarding war and American involvement in foreign affairs.
It's a perspective that's far too often ignored regardless of where one says they fall on the political spectrum.
I just wish I could watch sports without all the political mess. That is my escape from the crazy world we already live in. I love politics but sports brought it balance. Now it's all mixed up in one big can of potted meat.
Oh without a doubt bfort. One of the most important things I learned was the vast difference of opinions throughout the military on engaging in foreign affaris, but at the end of the day, we all came together for the greater cause and something way more important than us.
The civil rights act was enacted in 1964. The most highly judged/persecuted group...whatever you want to call it are young black men. Let's say ages 18-28. Their parents, assuming they were around that same age when they had their children would have been born anywhere from 1961-1981. I live in Charlotte, where economic mobility is ranked dead last in the country. Now tell me again how racism has not been anywhere from insensitive and frequently annoying to completely devastating to this group of people.
Last edited:
It’s hilarious that we have Nazi’s and KKK members waving flags of the enemies of American and some people are ok with it. But oh my God let Black football players kneel during national anthem and its treason. Plus the racist killed a innocent woman. What a bunch of hypocritical BS!
America would absolutely suck without black people. Please, pull up a chair, stay a while. We need the strength of the black experience to remain a great country.
I couldn't agree more. Sports has been an area that brought people together, and is an outlet from reality.
I miss the days of wrestling and Peckers Potted Meat!
Whooooooohhhh!!!
I get the sentiment and I hear that a lot, but from the perspective of someone protesting, because of how popular sports are in the U.S., there's really no better forum. I think rather than escape from this world there's never been a better time to engage in the discourse.
So i ask you an honest question on what protest you would be ok with and you respond by asking me what country I want to move to? How about you stand up to the small minority that are racist aholes and we can all be happy. I agree with you...you have your opinion and I have mine, but I'm here to stay. My father was a navy pilot during the first gulf war, and my grandfather was shot in Korea. I'm just as American as you are.
I believe in standing for the anthem no matter the circumstances. If Senator McCain or any other veteran calls someone out for not standing, they have earned that right. When the country called on Trump to serve he turned the country down. When he did that he forfeited any right to call someone unpatriotic.
I can definitely appreciate that.
And while we're on the subject I'd love to recommend to anyone interested the film The War Tapes by Deborah Scranton. It's a very non-partisan exploration into the lives of soldiers that allows three separate members of the National Guard to narrate their experiences in Iraq via a dashboard cam mounted in their vehicle as they serve a tour of duty.
Very insightful and at times devastating account of war in the 21st century from the men and women who've lived it.
GOFRYE, in my opinion this has never been about the flag or disrespecting our service members. But like I just heard, that's what some people want to think. I would ask them same people face to face was Rosa Parks protest about the bus?
Amen. Malcom X, MLK, Rosa Parks, John Coltrane, James Brown, Miles Davis, Bill Russell, Jim Brown, Angela Davis, Kendrick Lamar, Langston Hughes, Gwendolyn Brooks, Muddy Waters, Son House, Henry Louis Gates, Toni Morrison, Zora Neal Hurston, W.E.B. DuBois, Thurgood Marshall, Frederick Douglas, Black Lives Matter...and way way way too many more to mention who've helped give America its vitality and identity.
I will have to check that out. I served in Desert Shield/Storm, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan). I remember the day that one Captain lead his unit down the wrong route and ended up getting ambushed. I just watched the documentary Legion of Brothers. That was preety good itself.
Thanks for the recommendation and I'm glad you made it back safely.
This is over-simplifying the narrative in several ways. For one, maybe kneeling doesn't accomplish anything to you, but it's not really your call. The fact remains that this is catalyzing widespread discussion, which is the entire point.
Secondly, the argument is NOT take this country as it is or get the f*ck out, as I regrettably hear way too often. As citizens, our country has afforded us the right to peacefully protest (which, incidentally, is one of the foremost distinctions that gives America such potential compared to more oppressive regimes) and even if America is better than some countries, there is much work to do. When the government isn't doing enough to address issues faced by our citizens, it is our DUTY to call attention to it. This will be verified by any person with reasonable knowledge about American law, social injustice, race, etc. This is also a foremost concern of the International legal community when assessing the United States' regard for basic human rights. It is NOT something conjured up by leftist yahoos or ungrateful minorities, as some would have you believe.
Thank you to both you and your wife for your service to our Country. Means a lot to me!
A few thoughts.
First, a lot of people posting here I've never seen before. That's interesting, but I do hope nobody is creating accounts that aren't truthful to push an agenda.
Second, the "love it or leave it" view is simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive, and in fact it is the EPITOME of unAmerican. You want love it or leave it? Go to Iran, or North Korea. People rant about showing respect for soldiers and veterans and those who have died for our country? Well, those Americans died in part to ensure we remain a country of people who have the right to protest peacefully.
Third, likewise, the idea that the flag is only about our military and veterans, and that anyone kneeling during the salute is somehow insulting them, despite the fact that nobody who has taken part in this form of protest has ever said anything of the sort, is likewise simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive. Please, we desperately need people to stop clinging to these positions of absolutism and understand that isn't how the world works, and we also need people to actually listen to what is being said and stop this insincere layering of ones own issues and thoughts over the actions of others, especially when said actions have been explicitly explained to not be that way.
Fourth, some of the greatest pieces of America came to be through uncomfortable protest, and worse. Slavery ended through protest and eventually conflict, women got the right to vote through protest and eventually conflict... the country came to be through protest and eventually conflict! While the current protests are not as focused as those examples, with as obvious desired outcomes, let's not forget that much good can come from uncomfortable protest, as it raises awareness and galvanizes Americans.
Fifth, the fact that the guys who are protesting are millionaires means nothing. They are still Americans... being rich doesn't change that. And the fact that many of them come from backgrounds where they have encountered racism and inequality and are now in a position to have a platform and voice... and they are willing to endanger that in order to make a point? I give them a lot of respect for that.
Sixth, our country still has major problems with race. I can get more detailed if people wish (two of my degrees from Duke were in history and African American studies) but there are a bevy of facts that support that. Blacks are convicted at much higher rates than whites in similar circumstances, blacks are given more jail time than whites in similar circumstances, black soldiers are disciplined by our military justice system at a much higher rate than white soldiers... and its only now, with the advent of the iPhone (which makes it easy to record) and Facebook/Twitter (which makes it easy to share said recordings) that much of white America is finally seeing what black America has been dealing with for decades. It makes some white Americans very uncomfortable, and some go to extreme lengths to try to deny that there is any serious issue, insisting that everything is fair and equal against all reasonable evidence. The sooner we can all accept that there are still big issues with race in this country, issues that impact all Americans of all races, and we can start to have honest discussions about it, the better,
Seventh, I've never sat for the anthem. In fact, I worked in sports for years, and heard the anthem a LOT. And I always made sure to take a moment during it to reflect on the goodness my country has afforded me, because I thought it was bad to simply stand like a robot. But I also realize it is a song and a flapping piece of cloth, and if someone isn't feeling the same way I am about that song and that flapping piece of cloth, that is their experience. I'm not going to crap on it; I am the type to want to learn more about why they feel that way. I think that is a far more useful approach.
Eighth, on a practical matter... let's not pretend that the anthem, and players standing, is some important aspect of football. It isn't. In fact, it only started a few years ago, and only because the US military paid the NFL to have players do it in order to help with recruiting, my guess is primarily among minorities. So don't act like it is some created-by-God, essential to the universe thing... it all came to be because of a government program aimed at symbolism and increasing military recruiting.
Ninth, we do need, as a nation, to be a bit less sensitive in letting people ask questions and debate certain topics. A certain element of Americans desperately wants to ask questions about how the fragmented black family became a thing, about why crime is so prevalent in black communities, about why so many black men are in jail. Sometimes we discourage this and act offended by it, when really it is something that needs to be discussed, or it will be this lingering doubt in some people's head. That said, these people also then need to LISTEN to the answers they get... too often they simply refuse to listen to people with more experience, more education, more information.
Tenth, many Americans need to have more conversations with people of different colors. When I hear some of the mind blowing stuff and stances that some white Americans take, I can't help but think "Good lord... do you actually TALK to any black people about this stuff?" I have had the great fortune of being close to a lot of black people in my life... lived in a black frat, worked with black athletes, taught black kids, talk to the same group of black dudes every night... and it has gone a long way towards helping me understand things.
Finally, I think Duke basketball fans should remember... our favorite basketball team is largely made up of young black men. Don't be saying things that you wouldn't say to their faces, and if you are truly a fan, a real fan, you should always be ready to understand what many young black men go through (including our guys), how many young black men feel about these issues (including our guys), and be ready to support them... if you actually have respect and care for them beyond just that they wear a certain jersey and throw a ball through a hoop.
Anyway.... I know some will be all like "tl/dr" but I hope on a Duke forum that will be the minority.
First, a lot of people posting here I've never seen before. That's interesting, but I do hope nobody is creating accounts that aren't truthful to push an agenda.
Second, the "love it or leave it" view is simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive, and in fact it is the EPITOME of unAmerican. You want love it or leave it? Go to Iran, or North Korea. People rant about showing respect for soldiers and veterans and those who have died for our country? Well, those Americans died in part to ensure we remain a country of people who have the right to protest peacefully.
Third, likewise, the idea that the flag is only about our military and veterans, and that anyone kneeling during the salute is somehow insulting them, despite the fact that nobody who has taken part in this form of protest has ever said anything of the sort, is likewise simplistic and childish to the point of being offensive. Please, we desperately need people to stop clinging to these positions of absolutism and understand that isn't how the world works, and we also need people to actually listen to what is being said and stop this insincere layering of ones own issues and thoughts over the actions of others, especially when said actions have been explicitly explained to not be that way.
Fourth, some of the greatest pieces of America came to be through uncomfortable protest, and worse. Slavery ended through protest and eventually conflict, women got the right to vote through protest and eventually conflict... the country came to be through protest and eventually conflict! While the current protests are not as focused as those examples, with as obvious desired outcomes, let's not forget that much good can come from uncomfortable protest, as it raises awareness and galvanizes Americans.
Fifth, the fact that the guys who are protesting are millionaires means nothing. They are still Americans... being rich doesn't change that. And the fact that many of them come from backgrounds where they have encountered racism and inequality and are now in a position to have a platform and voice... and they are willing to endanger that in order to make a point? I give them a lot of respect for that.
Sixth, our country still has major problems with race. I can get more detailed if people wish (two of my degrees from Duke were in history and African American studies) but there are a bevy of facts that support that. Blacks are convicted at much higher rates than whites in similar circumstances, blacks are given more jail time than whites in similar circumstances, black soldiers are disciplined by our military justice system at a much higher rate than white soldiers... and its only now, with the advent of the iPhone (which makes it easy to record) and Facebook/Twitter (which makes it easy to share said recordings) that much of white America is finally seeing what black America has been dealing with for decades. It makes some white Americans very uncomfortable, and some go to extreme lengths to try to deny that there is any serious issue, insisting that everything is fair and equal against all reasonable evidence. The sooner we can all accept that there are still big issues with race in this country, issues that impact all Americans of all races, and we can start to have honest discussions about it, the better,
Seventh, I've never sat for the anthem. In fact, I worked in sports for years, and heard the anthem a LOT. And I always made sure to take a moment during it to reflect on the goodness my country has afforded me, because I thought it was bad to simply stand like a robot. But I also realize it is a song and a flapping piece of cloth, and if someone isn't feeling the same way I am about that song and that flapping piece of cloth, that is their experience. I'm not going to crap on it; I am the type to want to learn more about why they feel that way. I think that is a far more useful approach.
Eighth, on a practical matter... let's not pretend that the anthem, and players standing, is some important aspect of football. It isn't. In fact, it only started a few years ago, and only because the US military paid the NFL to have players do it in order to help with recruiting, my guess is primarily among minorities. So don't act like it is some created-by-God, essential to the universe thing... it all came to be because of a government program aimed at symbolism and increasing military recruiting.
Ninth, we do need, as a nation, to be a bit less sensitive in letting people ask questions and debate certain topics. A certain element of Americans desperately wants to ask questions about how the fragmented black family became a thing, about why crime is so prevalent in black communities, about why so many black men are in jail. Sometimes we discourage this and act offended by it, when really it is something that needs to be discussed, or it will be this lingering doubt in some people's head. That said, these people also then need to LISTEN to the answers they get... too often they simply refuse to listen to people with more experience, more education, more information.
Tenth, many Americans need to have more conversations with people of different colors. When I hear some of the mind blowing stuff and stances that some white Americans take, I can't help but think "Good lord... do you actually TALK to any black people about this stuff?" I have had the great fortune of being close to a lot of black people in my life... lived in a black frat, worked with black athletes, taught black kids, talk to the same group of black dudes every night... and it has gone a long way towards helping me understand things.
Finally, I think Duke basketball fans should remember... our favorite basketball team is largely made up of young black men. Don't be saying things that you wouldn't say to their faces, and if you are truly a fan, a real fan, you should always be ready to understand what many young black men go through (including our guys), how many young black men feel about these issues (including our guys), and be ready to support them... if you actually have respect and care for them beyond just that they wear a certain jersey and throw a ball through a hoop.
Anyway.... I know some will be all like "tl/dr" but I hope on a Duke forum that will be the minority.
Last edited:
Why does the NFL pick and choose which demonstration it will allow ?
Dallas players wanted to wear a small emblem on their helmet to honor the 5 cops killed but the NFL said no. One black player wanted to wear pink cleats to honor his mother fighting breat cancer. NFL said no.
Another black player wanted to wear red/white/blue cleats on 9/11. The NFL said no.
If the league is going to accept close to a billion dollars from taxpayers I think they should have clear cut rules for the players concerning pregame ceremonies.
Dallas players wanted to wear a small emblem on their helmet to honor the 5 cops killed but the NFL said no. One black player wanted to wear pink cleats to honor his mother fighting breat cancer. NFL said no.
Another black player wanted to wear red/white/blue cleats on 9/11. The NFL said no.
If the league is going to accept close to a billion dollars from taxpayers I think they should have clear cut rules for the players concerning pregame ceremonies.
In my opinion, there should not be protests during the anthem at games. the NFL has rules on the behavior of players during the anthem. I don't see why they would choose to ignore their own rules. The players are workers and being that there are rules for how they should act, and the fact they are at their place of work, they should be fined for not abiding by the rules. The 'protests' have morphed from protesting against police treatment of black people to a protest against the President. A precedent has been set. How can they now say no to any protest. PETA activists could be kneeling next to hunting / gun rights activists. The kneeling protest is meaningless because people have to ask what they are protesting now. I have been at games when the two sides really didn't like each other. The anthem was the one thing that everyone had in common. People would (mostly) stand and be respectful, showing that despite our sports differences, we were all one people. These athletes are really rich with the ability to protest in a variety of ways. I don't see the benefit to anyone or any cause by doing 'guess my cause' kneeling protests during the anthem. The actions of the people doing the protests do more overall harm than any good.
I think that is the thing... this isn't necessarily true. I think a certain segment of white America thinks this, but a number of black Americans simply do not see it as being cut and dry, as evidenced by these protests. The anthem is a symbol of America, of all of its beauty and all of its warts, and for some people the exposing of those warts is important.
I think it is too early to know if this is true. While some Americans might be angry and unsettled by them, they are also pushing forward discussion. Sometimes great change comes from anger and an unsettling of the norm... for example, the civil rights movement, the womens lib movement... honestly, nearly every movement we've ever had.
Sorry, I haven't been around long enough to get it... I can only assume Dsouth is a poster who writes really, really, really, REALLY long posts?
You are entitled to your opinion as am I. I believe the last president was the worst of all time.
Check the statistics of black families after 8 years of Obama.
Black home ownership down 9.1 percent , household income down 1.5 percent to $35,398, blacks living below poverty level rose 1.6 percent to 25.8 percent. Blacks on food stamps increased 58 percent in those 8 years.
Trump often is very unpresidential. He is a very flawed person . I do however believe black families will make
far greater economic progress while he is in office than they did in the prior 8 years.
For the average black family living on less than 36k a year that is the most important issue of all.
This is off topic, but do make sure to look at what national trends were, especially before Obama took office, before you start labeling him as the worst of all time. Also take into account six years of a Republican legislative branch that actively and openly worked to obstruct at all turns. I mean, they said openly this was their plan. President doesn't pass laws, he just signs them.
That "worst of all time" label looks ESPECIALLY foolish when you take into account stats like a doubling of the DOW to record highs, a recovery from the greatest recession of modern times, the preservation of the American auto industry, a return of housing values, tens of millions of Americans getting health insurance... oh, and the killing of this guy named Osama
I suggest you do a bit of reading, about guys like Nixon or Carter or Johnson or... well, there were a bunch... before trying to label Obama as the worst president of all time. It makes you sound either uneducated (not meant as an insult, just mean literally) or very young.
Many black families are already behind the 8 ball sort of speak and the disastrous recession that took place before Obama came into office didn't help matters.....i personally wasn't apart of those numbers, guess I am an outlier
Did Mike Tomlin serve ? If not why should he be able to criticize Villanueva a veteran of 3 tours for exercising his right to stand for the anthem?
- Status