NO BODY!
- Thread starter cowbell88
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I look at car buying as a sport, a sport that I'm pretty good at. I no longer get emotionally attached to a new car so I have the advantage from the start. I realized a long time ago that I do not need a car dealer but the car dealers sure do need me. Treat me fairly and we may be able to do a deal but start that used car salesman pressure sales crap and I will waste a day 17ing with them even though I have no intention buying . That being said, I will not knowingly support OM and their cheating minions, there are too many other dealers out there.
Dickhead61 perusing the board looking for every opportunity to call someone a snowflake is awfully snowflaky
I buy new vehicles and keep them forever. Paying significantly under the
invoice and 0% financing is hard to beat.
I've learned my lesson with used vehicles. You truly don't know what you are getting, regardless of any carfax or ownership history you think you know.
invoice and 0% financing is hard to beat.
I've learned my lesson with used vehicles. You truly don't know what you are getting, regardless of any carfax or ownership history you think you know.
Isn't Columbus part of the Golden Triangle (Starkville, West Point, Columbus)?
Same here on being good at buying cars. Several years ago I read the book, "Don't Get Taken Every Time" by Remar Sutton. One of the best ROI's I've ever realized. I've saved $ thousands buying cars for myself, my family and several friends thanks to this book.
Anybody thinking about buying a car, new or used, should read this before stepping foot on a dealer's lot. Spend $15 on the book, or just check it out from the library and you WILL save a ton of money...perhaps thousands of $, and will actually enjoy the car-buying process. When you know the games they play, it is so much fun to call BS on them, hold their feet to the fire and flip the script on them.
Anybody thinking about buying a car, new or used, should read this before stepping foot on a dealer's lot. Spend $15 on the book, or just check it out from the library and you WILL save a ton of money...perhaps thousands of $, and will actually enjoy the car-buying process. When you know the games they play, it is so much fun to call BS on them, hold their feet to the fire and flip the script on them.
Of course, you are entitled to do what you want in this regard. Nobody is suggesting you can't.
For me, there would be a tipping point with regard to doing business with Cannon, regardless of their service and value...not because they are owned by an OM alum but because they use their business to help OM cheat with recruits. That matters to me enough to try my best to buy elsewhere for a competitive price...even if it costs me a couple hundred or so more. But there would be a point at which the $ amount would make a difference. If giving up a couple of nights out-on-the-town would make up the difference, I'd for sure rather do that than support those cheating bastards. But if the difference meant I might miss a house payment, or not be able to buy my wife a nice gift on our anniversary, etc., then I'd reluctantly buy from Cannon.
But there is no amount of them being great at service that could ever trump the fact they fund cheating at our rival...a thing that hurts our university. I would rather contact every car dealer within a few hours drive trying to get one to get close enough to the Cannon offer that I could justify spending a little more, even if I had to drive a few hours to do it, if it meant I could keep from giving my money to Cannon.
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New cars depreciate in value by a $ thousand or more the moment you drive them off the lot. If you learn how to give a car a good enough inspection to make it a serious candidate for buying, you can pay a mechanic to give it a more thorough inspection before you agree to buy it. If you really want to be cautious, limit yourself to used cars where the owner can provide records of all service done to the car. If they can show you the car has been regularly maintained with oil changes, had timing belts, water pumps, etc. changed recently enough to be set for a while, etc, then you are way ahead of the game before you even take it to your mechanic.
Your cost pretty much comes down to paying the mechanic for that extra piece-of-mind times the number of times you had to do it before a car passes his inspection. If you are decent at doing your own inspection first, and have the service records, your chances of the car being approved by your mechanic go way up. Since buying new from a dealer means you are paying $ thousands more than you could have from a private party, you'd be WAY ahead of the game, even if you wound up paying the mechanic several times for several cars before you got one that looked like a winner.
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Never negotiate the price from the sticker down. Those stickers are a scam. Always negotiate from the dealers cost, minus any manufacturer's incentives, up. It's really easy to learn the true cost to the dealer (do not trust what they say their cost is on any sticker). Just takes a little research. "Dealer Invoice from the manufacturer" is not the actual dealer cost. DI already has margin packed into it, and does not show you stuff like manufacturer discounts, incentives, dealer holdback, etc...all things the dealer gets back from the manufacturer. Beware any dealer that shows you the Dealer Invoice and claims it is his cost. He is lying and considers you a chump if you buy it.
Also, do not use KBB as your source for value when you are buying a car, particularly used. There is a reason car dealers seem to regularly have, "Kelley Blue Book Sales". It's because KBB has always been in the dealer's back pocket. The book you can buy isn't even the same one dealers can get themselves. One of the tricks a lot of dealers like to use is to pull out the KBB for you on their lot when they are pressuring you to buy, so they can show you the # and claim it is proof they aren't making any money off of you. It's a lie. Of course they are showing you the KBB version printed for consumers. Best I've seen at determining real value is Edmunds.
Do yourself a favor and read, "Don't Get Taken Every Time" by Remar Sutton, before you buy another vehicle. I used to buy cars the same way you do until I read this book. I absolutely payed way over the actual value of every car I bought prior to reading that book, and have made really great deals on every car since I read it.
Also, do not use KBB as your source for value when you are buying a car, particularly used. There is a reason car dealers seem to regularly have, "Kelley Blue Book Sales". It's because KBB has always been in the dealer's back pocket. The book you can buy isn't even the same one dealers can get themselves. One of the tricks a lot of dealers like to use is to pull out the KBB for you on their lot when they are pressuring you to buy, so they can show you the # and claim it is proof they aren't making any money off of you. It's a lie. Of course they are showing you the KBB version printed for consumers. Best I've seen at determining real value is Edmunds.
Do yourself a favor and read, "Don't Get Taken Every Time" by Remar Sutton, before you buy another vehicle. I used to buy cars the same way you do until I read this book. I absolutely payed way over the actual value of every car I bought prior to reading that book, and have made really great deals on every car since I read it.
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This is so true especially on Ford trucks. You may have to go out of MS to get a deal on a truck, but you will most likely come out better buying a new one. You can get 10k plus off the sticker when incentives are good. Then when you run the numbers on depreciation, it is hard to find something comparable to cost of driving a Ford truck. That is if you are looking at late models.
All of that is true, but you can still often get a brand new car for less money than a used car of the same model year or even 1 year older. The dealers have so much financial incentive in holdbacks, etc. that they can really slash the price of a new car, whereas they are kind of stuck trying to make a profit on their used cars. Very easy to buy a brand new 2019 for less money than a used 2019 or 2018 model with identical options. Plus you get the full factory warning, and many new cars come with free servicing for a period of time. If you are financing, you might qualify for better manufacturer financing deals as well.
I read "Don't Get Taken Every Time" back in 1990, and I have read a couple of the updates (dealers had to change they way they were doing business because everyone got wise to the old ways). Back in 1990, buying a new car for 3% over invoice was a pretty good deal. These days, the invoice price is a complete fiction, but it doesn't take much research to get the real prices.
I read "Don't Get Taken Every Time" back in 1990, and I have read a couple of the updates (dealers had to change they way they were doing business because everyone got wise to the old ways). Back in 1990, buying a new car for 3% over invoice was a pretty good deal. These days, the invoice price is a complete fiction, but it doesn't take much research to get the real prices.
Apparently not, when we have people suggesting that they would fly in from Dallas in order to support the OM machine AND get a damn good deal.
Bingo. Salesmen make their money off of used cars. Depending on the manufacturer, You need to buy a used car that is at least 3 years old or have very high mileage for it to be worth your trouble.
Then again, it depends on what are you are buying. Always buy a used American vehicle. Depreciation. You want a European luxury car? Lease it. Don’t touch a used one (there is a reason they depreciate like a cliff) and never buy a new one. Toyota, Subaru, or Honda is the way to go.
Then again, it depends on what are you are buying. Always buy a used American vehicle. Depreciation. You want a European luxury car? Lease it. Don’t touch a used one (there is a reason they depreciate like a cliff) and never buy a new one. Toyota, Subaru, or Honda is the way to go.
He left Columbus a bit ago....
And has been at another dealership in north Mississippi
And has been at another dealership in north Mississippi
I agree it is possible, though rare. Would probably take a new incentive from the manufacturer, perhaps in an effort to make room for newer vehicles on the dealer's lot and possibly a dealer also wanting to make room. For sure, manufacturers don't like the optics of their previous model cars remaining unsold on the lot. The last new car I bought, for instance, was a brand new Saab 9-5 that was the last on the lot, still there when the next year's model came in. As I recall, Saab offered an additional $3,000 incentive to the dealer to get it sold, so my purchase price was literally close to $3,000 under the original dealer cost, not invoice , but cost. So even though I was already by then a believer in used cars, I went with it.
Also helped that I was flexible in what I wanted. I had not gone there to buy a Saab. In fact, I was just doing early research on the Subaru Outback, to see if I liked them in person. That dealer happened to sell both, so I saw the Saab pretty much in passing. Salesman told me about the additional $3k rebate to move the '99, so I went back home, researched the car, determined the true dealer cost, then went back to play hardball. OF course they tried to come down $3k off "retail/sticker", but I nipped that in the bud quick and told them I knew what their actual cost was...knew about every incentive, rebate, etc, including the additional $3k available on the '99, already had my financing covered, and was ready to either buy that car for the price I offered or walk away and never come back. The only thing they got out of me from there was to let them see if they could counter my financing so they could at least make the interest off that. So I showed them what I had, and they came back with an offer to match my rate and agree to my price if I would take it right then and there. Done.
I think the dealer made something like $50 on the deal. But they were able to get that last 1999 off the lot so they could use the space for another 2000. For those who don't know, dealers add to the cost of vehicles that sit on their lot month-after-month. It cost them money to keep it there, so they factor that into operating cost as well as consider the room it's taking up that could be filled by another, newer vehicle.
Also helped that I was flexible in what I wanted. I had not gone there to buy a Saab. In fact, I was just doing early research on the Subaru Outback, to see if I liked them in person. That dealer happened to sell both, so I saw the Saab pretty much in passing. Salesman told me about the additional $3k rebate to move the '99, so I went back home, researched the car, determined the true dealer cost, then went back to play hardball. OF course they tried to come down $3k off "retail/sticker", but I nipped that in the bud quick and told them I knew what their actual cost was...knew about every incentive, rebate, etc, including the additional $3k available on the '99, already had my financing covered, and was ready to either buy that car for the price I offered or walk away and never come back. The only thing they got out of me from there was to let them see if they could counter my financing so they could at least make the interest off that. So I showed them what I had, and they came back with an offer to match my rate and agree to my price if I would take it right then and there. Done.
I think the dealer made something like $50 on the deal. But they were able to get that last 1999 off the lot so they could use the space for another 2000. For those who don't know, dealers add to the cost of vehicles that sit on their lot month-after-month. It cost them money to keep it there, so they factor that into operating cost as well as consider the room it's taking up that could be filled by another, newer vehicle.
Sorry, but this is incorrect. Yes, they can make money off of used cars, and depending on the negotiating skill of the buyers, they might make more on a used, but not usually more than they make on new. The sales people who work the used lots are generally considered lower on the totem pole than the new car sales guys. All of them get commissioned, so the commission on a higher-priced vehicle is going to be more on a new...unless the commission % on used is vastly greater than it is for new.
A dealer's best sales people will not be placed in the division that makes them less money. Of course it can depend a little on how they are set up. Some places may have sales that handle both, but you can bet your hind tit the top salespeople get first dibs, and they tend to go for the big-ticket new car sales.
Another thing that factors in is the cost of the used car for the dealer and what he had to, "pay" for it by way of trade-in allowance on the new car they sold. This is convoluted as well by the fact these dealers play games with trade-in allowance when they negotiate the new car. They try to get you both ways, or at least stick it to you more on one if they can't on the other. That's why you should negotiate them separately. Negotiate the deal on your new car by knowing the true dealer cost and knowing the margin you are willing to pay. Only after you get an agreement on the new car price should you then allow them to offer you on your old car. And you should already know what your car is worth, "Private Party" as well as the going "trade-in value". If you let them think you are perfectly willing to sell your car private party to get more, you're more likely to get a better offer on your trade-in. Not, "Private Party" better, but not a low-ball offer either, where you can easily give back all the money you saved negotiating the new car price.
You also don't have to settle for extremely high-mileage used cars. There are plenty of people who don't do their homework, practically give their car to the dealer, and like to switch to new cars way sooner than they probably should, thus a used car with low miles at a dealer who "allowed" less for it than he should have, thus reducing his cost. The high-mileage cars you speak of are typically turned over to what new dealers call, "Road hogs" or auction houses. The dealer will dump those cheaply to those guys, keeping the used cars they think have good value.
ETA - but the better option is to buy private party...not from a dealership. If you are a strong negotiator, you might be able to get a dealer to sell you a used car somewhere between trade-in and private party, but you'll probably have to bust your *** haggling. And most used car warranties aren't especially good or lengthy, if they give you one at all. You're better off saving money by buying private party and using some of the savings to have a good mechanic give it a thorough inspection prior to finalizing the deal.
A dealer's best sales people will not be placed in the division that makes them less money. Of course it can depend a little on how they are set up. Some places may have sales that handle both, but you can bet your hind tit the top salespeople get first dibs, and they tend to go for the big-ticket new car sales.
Another thing that factors in is the cost of the used car for the dealer and what he had to, "pay" for it by way of trade-in allowance on the new car they sold. This is convoluted as well by the fact these dealers play games with trade-in allowance when they negotiate the new car. They try to get you both ways, or at least stick it to you more on one if they can't on the other. That's why you should negotiate them separately. Negotiate the deal on your new car by knowing the true dealer cost and knowing the margin you are willing to pay. Only after you get an agreement on the new car price should you then allow them to offer you on your old car. And you should already know what your car is worth, "Private Party" as well as the going "trade-in value". If you let them think you are perfectly willing to sell your car private party to get more, you're more likely to get a better offer on your trade-in. Not, "Private Party" better, but not a low-ball offer either, where you can easily give back all the money you saved negotiating the new car price.
You also don't have to settle for extremely high-mileage used cars. There are plenty of people who don't do their homework, practically give their car to the dealer, and like to switch to new cars way sooner than they probably should, thus a used car with low miles at a dealer who "allowed" less for it than he should have, thus reducing his cost. The high-mileage cars you speak of are typically turned over to what new dealers call, "Road hogs" or auction houses. The dealer will dump those cheaply to those guys, keeping the used cars they think have good value.
ETA - but the better option is to buy private party...not from a dealership. If you are a strong negotiator, you might be able to get a dealer to sell you a used car somewhere between trade-in and private party, but you'll probably have to bust your *** haggling. And most used car warranties aren't especially good or lengthy, if they give you one at all. You're better off saving money by buying private party and using some of the savings to have a good mechanic give it a thorough inspection prior to finalizing the deal.
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You have to keep up with the other threads there Sport.
I don't fly in to support OM... I have to drive in from Dallas to support them... It's easier to drive in and support the OM machine that is the Starkville Ford dealership because I don't fly cropdusters to Meridian or connect in Heathrow to get back to GTR.**
I don't think it is rare at all, but it doesn't always work out that way.
I help all of my relatives, and a lot of my friends, buy cars. It is not unusual at all for buyers to make a well-informed offer on a late model used car, only to be told the dealer can put them in a brand new car for the same amount of money. Of course, you might immediately think you made too high an offer on the used car, but in the cases I've been involved in they were just making excellent deals on the used car. It won't always work that way, of course.
Don't want to bore you with anecdotal details, but just last year I was helping my niece buy a Rav4. We found a used 2018 model that was over priced, and we offered about $4,000 below their asking price. We were pretty much laughed off the lot (it was a VW dealer). We wound up getting a brand new 2018 with all the same features for a little less than we offered on the used one, and since she qualified for Toyota's new graduate deal she got 0% financing and a $500 rebate, along with her first two oil changes for free. Toyota redesigned the Rav4 for 2019, so maybe they were trying to get rid of the 2018s, but she came out way ahead. And a couple months later that VW dealer still had the used Rav4 and had lowered their asking price to what we originally offered them.
I help all of my relatives, and a lot of my friends, buy cars. It is not unusual at all for buyers to make a well-informed offer on a late model used car, only to be told the dealer can put them in a brand new car for the same amount of money. Of course, you might immediately think you made too high an offer on the used car, but in the cases I've been involved in they were just making excellent deals on the used car. It won't always work that way, of course.
Don't want to bore you with anecdotal details, but just last year I was helping my niece buy a Rav4. We found a used 2018 model that was over priced, and we offered about $4,000 below their asking price. We were pretty much laughed off the lot (it was a VW dealer). We wound up getting a brand new 2018 with all the same features for a little less than we offered on the used one, and since she qualified for Toyota's new graduate deal she got 0% financing and a $500 rebate, along with her first two oil changes for free. Toyota redesigned the Rav4 for 2019, so maybe they were trying to get rid of the 2018s, but she came out way ahead. And a couple months later that VW dealer still had the used Rav4 and had lowered their asking price to what we originally offered them.
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Don't think so, but not sure. It may be out of print now. Last mention I see of a reprint is 2007. I suspect the internet has made the same info available for free. Still, I'd get the latest copy if I were you and read it. Really entertaining and empowering.
As Dawgzilla said, the success of the book has possibly changed the way a lot of dealers operate, thus perhaps making the money you typically save less, depending on the dealer, but I wouldn't count on it.
As Dawgzilla said, the success of the book has possibly changed the way a lot of dealers operate, thus perhaps making the money you typically save less, depending on the dealer, but I wouldn't count on it.
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OK, I read your post a little more carefully, so get where you're coming from. You're talking about comparing the negotiated price of a new vehicle with rebates, incentives, etc to the negotiated price of a used car either the same year, or perhaps one year older from a dealer. Of course that dealer no longer has access to the manufacturer rebates, etc., he may now have on the new cars. In those cases it is possible, as a same year or 1-year old car, though depreciated by a thousand or more, could still have a higher cost to the dealer than a new one where the manufacturer has offered incentives greater than the amount of depreciation. It just depends on the amount of the incentives available.
That said, I don't advocate trying to buy 1-year old cars. If you want to get to a point where a huge chuck of the total depreciation has passed, it takes 2-3 years. After the 2nd and 3rd year, a vehicle's value has already plummeted far more than it will over the next 2-3 or more. So the value move here is to look at used cars that are at least 2-3 years old....3 years a lot better than 2. They'll still likely have well more than 1/2 their usable, dependable life left, yet will have dropped in book value far more than 50%.
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It's hard to get for free. You can start at Edmunds.com to see the dealer costs, but there are still so many hidden kickbacks that you should be able to buy your car for a few thousand under the dealer cost. The car manufacturers have been fighting back against the internet to keep their real pricing secret. There are some pay sites that will give you info on the current incentive deals and the like so that you can try to figure out the dealers' bottom line.
When I bought my first new car in 1990, all you had to do was buy a copy of Edmunds car guide -- I think it came out quarterly -- and all of the dealer costs were spelled out in black and white. You could then search a few trade magazines and found out if there any new dealer incentives in your area, toss in 2-3% profit for the dealer, and there you go!
When I bought my first new car in 1990, all you had to do was buy a copy of Edmunds car guide -- I think it came out quarterly -- and all of the dealer costs were spelled out in black and white. You could then search a few trade magazines and found out if there any new dealer incentives in your area, toss in 2-3% profit for the dealer, and there you go!
A friend of mine bought a Volkswagen Tiguan a couple months ago and it has been nothing but trouble. They've had it in several times for a sunroof leak and a couple other issues. They decided to trade it in on a Toyata RAV4, and it just came in yesterday. So far, so good with the new one but you never know. He claims they only lost about $2K on the trade, but if that's the case he got a good deal. They could have done the Lemon Law thing on the Tiguan but apparently decided it was too much of a hassle. I pity the person who picks up the traded-in VW.
I generally buy new because all parts are new ... brakes, tires, everything ... and you know it hasn't been abused. There's a reason people turn low mileage cars in. At one time, some would buy a new car every year so the old one was probably OK, but that's not the case anymore.
I generally buy new because all parts are new ... brakes, tires, everything ... and you know it hasn't been abused. There's a reason people turn low mileage cars in. At one time, some would buy a new car every year so the old one was probably OK, but that's not the case anymore.
Then again, cars last a lot longer now than they used to. Not that long ago (relative I know), it was considered pretty good to get 100,000 miles out of an American car without it costing a fortune in repairs, etc. Not anymore. Now it's getting common for properly maintained cars to last beyond 200,000 miles...just with routine maintenance. That's American cars...not the Asian ones that are commonly getting far more than that.
This is also supported by the fact that Americans are keeping cars years longer than ever before. The average age of cars on the road has gone up from approximately 8 years to over 11 just since the early 90's.
This is also supported by the fact that Americans are keeping cars years longer than ever before. The average age of cars on the road has gone up from approximately 8 years to over 11 just since the early 90's.
Car dealer owner explained to me 30 years ago that most people wouldn’t remember the ad if they weren’t ridiculous.
I have mentioned before, I will never try to win an argument with you again. I am already waving the white flag... With that said, when all my other friends at State were waiting tables and bar-backing for extra cash I was making $5-6k a month selling Fords. I know exactly how the business works. I don't lie to you.
Depending on the vehicle, it may be better to buy new, lease new, or buy used. For some, paying cash is best. To each there own. If everyone negotiated with the doctor the way they do at the car dealership, our healthcare would cost a fraction of what we pay today.
It's funny how having some good food experiences will change your perspective on things you used to think were purty good.
The guy they brought in to run it is a Bulldog through and through. I’ve known him for years. Very good guy and was the right hand at Premiere Ford in Columbus for many years. While I can’t speak for the owners- He is all Maroon.
Great job until you sell to all your friends and family then you leave and they bring someone else in.
That sounds more like insurance. Selling cars is not hard if you are willing to put up with the hours... evenings and weekends are when the lot is full. I didn't want a life that revolved around working weekends forever.
I remember them alright, I just don't care to do business with a bunch of freaking idiots that rely on hiding costs and incentives from me to take my $$. The last 3 vehicles I've bought have all been from individuals and the next one will be too. I have a friend that's the finance guy at a dealership and when its me and him out doing something he's a good guy but at work, I'll tell him in a heartbeat he's a slimeball.
Actually, one can spend less per year on a new car than on a used one. People that buy even year old used cars usually trade more frequently and pay higher interest rates. I bought a truck new, drove it 17 years and only sold it to upgrade in towing capability and improve my work commute. Initial Cost $10,800 .. Ford Ranger on sale. Sold it 17 years later for $2,500. I spent less than $800 total in repairs over the years. 10,800 + 800 in repairs - 2500 resell = 9100 / 17 = 535 per year. Can you to drive a used vehicle any cheaper? Yes, you can but keep in mind, my truck was brand new and as nice a ride as a Ford Ranger can be.
Having said all that for its replacement, I bought a one year old Camry with 15,000 miles for mpg and improved comfort to work and an 8 year old $4,500 full size truck to use for a yard truck and hauling crap. I am thinking of when I retire in a few years that I will buy a brand new Pick up to replace those two and expect to drive it for the duration of my retirement rather than deal with the used truck market.
I believe it was a Cheapskate magazine where I read an article once about 30 years ago on buying brand new rather than used. It recommended buying new, getting exactly what you want and then driving it forever as being the cheapest route.
Having said all that for its replacement, I bought a one year old Camry with 15,000 miles for mpg and improved comfort to work and an 8 year old $4,500 full size truck to use for a yard truck and hauling crap. I am thinking of when I retire in a few years that I will buy a brand new Pick up to replace those two and expect to drive it for the duration of my retirement rather than deal with the used truck market.
I believe it was a Cheapskate magazine where I read an article once about 30 years ago on buying brand new rather than used. It recommended buying new, getting exactly what you want and then driving it forever as being the cheapest route.
Slight thread hijack....anyone have experience selling their car to CarMax? If so, what kind of deal did you get?
I am looking into this option currently, as I am trying to decouple the single trade-in / purchase transaction to give the dealership I choose one less avenue of trying to screw me.
I am looking into this option currently, as I am trying to decouple the single trade-in / purchase transaction to give the dealership I choose one less avenue of trying to screw me.
Thanks WilCo. I have an appointment with them after work to get an offer on mine. Based on Edmunds, there’s about a $1600 difference in what I could expect to to get from trading in vs. private party. If they could cut that in half, I’m tempted to take it. My job and having small kids would make trying to sell privately a pain in the ***, so I’m trying to avoid that and am willing to sacrifice at least a little bit of money in doing so.
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Ordered the book yesterday. Looking forward to reading it. Wife has been dropping subtle hints that she is ready for a new ride so we will see how much I can save after reading the book.I don't know why she wants a new one, her 97 model only has 43000 miles on it.