Memphis injunction...

[K-Town Kat]

No, my question is highlighting the flawed assumption underlying your question about precedent.

This information comes courtesy of knoxtncat over at HOB, so credit to him for this.

"Colorado faced a similar situation with a football recruit and an article about the situation summarized what Bilas was referencing:
NCAA Bylaw 19.8 stipulates that if a student-athlete that is permitted to play via a court restraining order has his or her case reversed, the NCAA Management Council can require that the records of the athlete as well as the records of the team, in games in which the ineligible athlete played, be "vacated or stricken."

The Management Council also has the authority to strike team victories, to penalize the school by preventing them from attending any number of NCAA championships and to access financial penalties, including the possible forfeiting of the school's share of television revenue."

Based on this, again, Memphis has the right to sit him, judge ruling on eligibility be damned.

And there is no "flawed assumption".

You've been essentially making the argument that Memphis HAS to play Wiseman because a judge ordered he remain eligible via a restraining order. I'm simply asking you to provide a case example that leads you to think Memphis HAS to play him, legally. Not dress him, not keep him on scholarship, but PLAY him in a game.

 

[CB3UK]

Id think the NCAA COULD have been convinced to work with them on paying the money back in light of the current media climate, but when they so flagrantly ignored their ruling and went legal, its hard to imagine them doing nothing. All that being said, we all know UNC. Theyve got Will Wade at LSU on tape. Etc etc. The NCAA is a total clown show.

 

[bestshadofblue]

@UKnCincy Please explain how we'd get from Penny simply saying that it was his decision not to play him in the game, to Penny/Memphis having charges brought against him.

 

[UKnCincy_rivals]

This information comes courtesy of knoxtncat over at HOB, so credit to him for this.

"Colorado faced a similar situation with a football recruit and an article about the situation summarized what Bilas was referencing:
NCAA Bylaw 19.8 stipulates that if a student-athlete that is permitted to play via a court restraining order has his or her case reversed, the NCAA Management Council can require that the records of the athlete as well as the records of the team, in games in which the ineligible athlete played, be "vacated or stricken."

The Management Council also has the authority to strike team victories, to penalize the school by preventing them from attending any number of NCAA championships and to access financial penalties, including the possible forfeiting of the school's share of television revenue."

Based on this, again, Memphis has the right to sit him, judge ruling on eligibility be damned.

And there is no "flawed assumption".

You've been essentially making the argument that Memphis HAS to play Wiseman because a judge ordered he remain eligible via a restraining order. I'm simply asking you to provide a case example that leads you to think Memphis HAS to play him, legally. Not dress him, not keep him on scholarship, but PLAY him in a game.

No, there is a flawed assumption.

You also might want to brush up on the by-laws. The correct by-law here is 19.13, not 19.8.

 

[AllBall]

Memphis is playing with fire. Not a smart move to play Wiseman tonight and they did not need him.

Memphis is going all in to try and force the NCAA's hand, but the threat of a lawsuit may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

[Cats_2010]

Memphis compliance does not have final say if there is a judge who has ordered the school to consider Wiseman eligible until the legal questions are resolved. Ignoring the court’s order would result in contempt of court charges against the Memphis personnel responsible.

Lol!!! Apples and oranges. That still doesn’t mean the school is forced into allowing him to play. If they choose to allow him to continue to play and he ends up being deemed ineligible then they still played an ineligible player, Judges temporary order be damned.

 

[Tapemaster8]

If the injunction orders Memphis to treat Wiseman as eligible, then Memphis has to play him. There is absolutely zero reason why a healthy player of his caliber would simply ride the bench an entire game.

Sitting him would mean that the school is not considering him eligible and that the school is therefore ignoring a direct court order. It’s as simple as that. Memphis plays him until this is resolved or they face contempt of court.

I am not a lawyer, and I don't want to be, but the court can do the temporary injunction, that is not the same as saying Memphis has to play him. Otherwise if a player violated team rules, he could go to court and get a court order to let him play. I can't see where one has to do with the other. The NCAA may back down on this, but I doubt it. They should have sit him and then negotiated to a lesser penalty of a few game suspension. Not very smart.

On another note, I thought Memphis looks like a top five team last night!

 

[Snackbar11]

There is no way a court would be able to uphold a case where a player sued the school and the coach for not being played in a game....this would be the start of hundreds of law suits if that were the case. Inelligibility has nothing to do with it. It is a coaching decision only. The school cant even make that decision. The coach is ultimately responsible for playing time.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

If the injunction orders Memphis to treat Wiseman as eligible, then Memphis has to play him. There is absolutely zero reason why a healthy player of his caliber would simply ride the bench an entire game.

Sitting him would mean that the school is not considering him eligible and that the school is therefore ignoring a direct court order. It’s as simple as that. Memphis plays him until this is resolved or they face contempt of court.

I get that but I still don't get the basis for a preliminary injunction. There is no way Wiseman will win on the merits of his case.

 

[seccats04]

I don’t think Memphis’s opponents will go so quietly into the night on it. It’s not fair to them. The NCAA would be forced to act and not only vacate the wins, but call them forfeits so that they are wins for the opponents. If Memphis cheated, other teams shouldn’t be held accountable for losses sustained to Memphis.

The NCAA is sack-less. I understand they're somewhat limited in their enforcement abilities, afterall,they are not a law enforcement agency. But collegiate athletics have become so big and profitable and coaches are making millions of dollars a year that the temptation to cheat outweighs the risk of getting caught. Plus, the NCAA has put themselves into a corner by playing favorites with certain programs, cough UNCheat, cough Puke.

 

[UKnCincy_rivals]

I get that but I still don't get the basis for a preliminary injunction. There is no way Wiseman will win on the merits of his case.

Technically, it’s a restraining order not a preliminary injunction.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

This is interesting but I don't agree with his conclusion. http://rogerwilliamslawreview.org/files/2014/02/Porto.pdf

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Technically, it’s a restraining order not a preliminary injunction.

Now I'm more confused. In Tennessee I thought you had to have a court hearing for a restraining order.

 

[TBCat]

A judge can dictate that a school cannot use eligibility as the reason for sitting him if the player’s eligibility is at the heart of ongoing litigation.

So Memphis could only sit Wiseman if he were injured or if it made sense from a coaching / strategy perspective (i.e., sitting him would help win the game). He’s not hurt and there’s absolutely no way you can argue that sitting him helps win a game, so you have to play him.

I'm pretty sure you don't know the law. The judge has zero jurisdiction here. ZERO. Judges can not make starting lineups. They can't dictate the terms by which coaches are allowed to substitute. A coach or even the university for that matter, doesn't need to justify for any reason why a player isn't in the game. And most importantly under no circumstance do you have to play him. You just don't, period.

 

[Cats192]

Memphis is going all in to try and force the NCAA's hand, but the threat of a lawsuit may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The NCAA more or less has to stand their ground on it now.

If they don't, no one will ever accept punishment again. Threaten litigation, and your punishment falls by the way side.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I'm pretty sure you don't know the law. The judge has zero jurisdiction here. ZERO. Judges can not make starting lineups. They can't dictate the terms by which coaches are allowed to substitute. A coach or even the university for that matter, doesn't need to justify for any reason why a player isn't in the game. And most importantly under no circumstance do you have to play him. You just don't, period.

I argue with him all the time but I'm pretty sure he does know the law, I'm just stubborn.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

The NCAA more or less has to stand their ground on it now.

If they don't, no one will ever accept punishment again. Threaten litigation, and your punishment falls by the way side.

I predict the NCAA will make an example out of Memphis to deter other schools from trying the same strategy.

 

[kybassfan]

I'm pretty sure you don't know the law. The judge has zero jurisdiction here. ZERO. Judges can not make starting lineups. They can't dictate the terms by which coaches are allowed to substitute. A coach or even the university for that matter, doesn't need to justify for any reason why a player isn't in the game. And most importantly under no circumstance do you have to play him. You just don't, period.

Actually they do. He can rule on virtually anything that gets on his docket.

That said, I agree that the strength of the appeal is considerable. But in the meantime Wiseman plays, which was the goal. In the end, the judge says oops.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

Actually they do. He can rule on virtually anything that gets on his docket.

That said, I agree that the strength of the appeal is considerable. But in the meantime Wiseman plays, which was the goal. In the end, the judge says oops.

His judgment is superficial. It has no teeth. Sure they may or may not be able to technically call him ineligible but they can sit him - which is what should have happened.

Memphis is going to get drilled

 

[westerncat]

I predict the NCAA will make an example out of Memphis to deter other schools from trying the same strategy.

I think you are correct. If the NCAA backs off of this they might as well close their door.

 

[KYExtemper]

As others have said, if the NCAA lays down for this then you might as well open the door to coaches and boosters paying for all the recruits they want. UNC established the template of indefinite litigation to stave off problems and now other schools (and in this case a player) are starting to follow that line of reasoning.

 

[kybassfan]

His judgment is superficial. It has no teeth. Sure they may or may not be able to technically call him ineligible but they can sit him - which is what should have happened.

Memphis is going to get drilled

Did Wiseman play? Courts are used like this often.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

Did Wiseman play? Courts are used like this often.

He played but that doesn't give Memphis immunity from punishment for playing a kid who broke the rules and was deemed ineligible by NCAA. The judges ruling will not be acknowledged by the NCAA and at best the game will be forfeited.

 

[ColonelCat_rivals376764]

$11,500 to move from Nashville to Memphis? LMAO. Who wants to open up a moving business with me in Tennessee? Obviously I'm in the wrong line of work

Hey that's at least 200 miles, almost 60.00 per mile seems ok to me. Ask any driver that gets 1.00 to 2.00 per mile..Somting wong here. I guess that's overhead..

 

[Chris Mallory]

The ncaa is all bark and no bite. Every school knows it too so they will do what they want and nothing will happen. It’s all a joke. Ask Kansas, Arizona, LSU, Louisville....

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

The ncaa is all bark and no bite. Every school knows it too so they will do what they want and nothing will happen. It’s all a joke. Ask Kansas, Arizona, LSU, Louisville....

Ask Louisville huh? Want to rethink that? Kansas has been accused of major violations. I wouldn't say LSU and Arizona are out of danger, they paused the investigations until after Thanksgiving.

 

[kybassfan]

He played but that doesn't give Memphis immunity from punishment for playing a kid who broke the rules and was deemed ineligible by NCAA. The judges ruling will not be acknowledged by the NCAA and at best the game will be forfeited.

That’s right. The courts view would be that they prevented a travesty that can not be righted. Wiseman played. In theory, the court could hold the NCAA in contempt but that would get laughed out of the appellate.

The really stupid or brilliant guy here is Penny. He quite possibly forfeited a game to play a player he did not need. Really stupid.

Or he is forcing an issue that he knows he is going to win. Brilliant.

Right now I think it is safe to say we are looking at 1 of the top 5 dirtiest coaches in college basketball. He doesn’t give A.F. who knows. He basically took a leak in the NCAAs mouth and said drink up.

NCAAs ball.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Memphis compliance does not have final say if there is a judge who has ordered the school to consider Wiseman eligible until the legal questions are resolved. Ignoring the court’s order would result in contempt of court charges against the Memphis personnel responsible.

Bc a county court judge issues a stay that does not mean memphis has to play him. The head coach has the final say of who plays and who doesn’t. A judges ruling cannot compel a coach to play anyone. If memphis was concerned about the county judges ruling they could have easily gone to a higher court immediately to have that judges decision overturned. He does not have jurisdiction.

 

[UKCat67]

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

That’s right. The courts view would be that they prevented a travesty that can not be righted. Wiseman played. In theory, the court could hold the NCAA in contempt but that would get laughed out of the appellate.

The really stupid or brilliant guy here is Penny. He quite possibly forfeited a game to play a player he did not need. Really stupid.

Or he is forcing an issue that he knows he is going to win. Brilliant.

Right now I think it is safe to say we are looking at 1 of the top 5 dirtiest coaches in college basketball. He doesn’t give A.F. who knows. He basically took a leak in the NCAAs mouth and said drink up.

NCAAs ball.

It's really stupid. Memphis is a voluntary member institution that agreed to play by those rules. Again, Memphis can't control Wiseman hiring an attorney to bring this totally meaningless injunction into play (though I am sure their dumba$$ coach encouraged it). However, they can decide to not play him until this is resolved.

Being they decide to falsely hide behind this court ruling and knowingly played a player that is currently ineligible puts them on the hook for vacated games, financial penalties and a possible post season ban. Plus it looks like they are calling the NCAA's bluff which will not get them a favorable ruling for Wiseman.

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

 

[ukfan03]

Wiseman received illegal benefits. The NCAA is correct in their judgement on this case. He shouldn’t be allowed to play. The NCAA needs to make a example out of Memphis to keep this from happening in the future. The Memphis organization showed no respect to the NCAA. Their head coach provided him with improper benefits. There should be more than just Wiseman at stake here.

 

[BlueBloodKyFan73]

Since when is $11,500 more than the $30,000 they said that Enes got from his team?

I was going off the foreign exchange rate for currency LMFAO.

 

[kybassfan]

It's really stupid. Memphis is a voluntary member institution that agreed to play by those rules. Again, Memphis can't control Wiseman hiring an attorney to bring this totally meaningless injunction into play (though I am sure their dumba$$ coach encouraged it). However, they can decide to not play him until this is resolved.

Being they decide to falsely hide behind this court ruling and knowingly played a player that is currently ineligible puts them on the hook for vacated games, financial penalties and a possible post season ban. Plus it looks like they are calling the NCAA's bluff which will not get them a favorable ruling for Wiseman.

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

I’ve seen the NCAA cower badly last five years. This latest fold over states ursurping their control is the worst example.

10 years ago, I agree with you totally. In today’s lawless competition in the NCAA, I think there is a reasonable chance of to penalty at all.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

I’ve seen the NCAA cower badly last five years. This latest fold over states ursurping their control is the worst example.

10 years ago, I agree with you totally. In today’s lawless competition in the NCAA, I think there is a reasonable chance of to penalty at all.

Yeah - definitely agree that the NCAA has shown too much estrogen lately but Memphis has literally punched them in the mouth and said "do something, I dare you". Maybe they know they are going to lose Wiseman so they are going full potato?? Either way, there's no way this ends up good for them as knowingly playing an ineligible player could lead to a post season ban. If they don't shut him down ASAP, I can see the NCAA throwing the entire book at them.

 

[Cats_2010]

I argue with him all the time but I'm pretty sure he does know the law, I'm just stubborn.

He certainly may know the law but his statement of Memphis HAS to play him is vastly incorrect. A school/coach can not be forced to put anyone into a game, that is done on their own accord. Pretty absurd statement by him TBH.

 

[FrankUnderwood]

Various blue check marks/ and “journalists” etc on Twitter are insinuating this is a racial thing and it’s because Wisemen is black.

 

[Crums Bald Spot]

Various blue check marks/ and “journalists” etc on Twitter are insinuating this is a racial thing and it’s because Wisemen is black.

Of course, they are. You have a subset of people (media members and others) who will cry racism anytime something negative happens to a person of color. Unfortunately, it's desensitizing the accusation and hurting the scenarios where there's really a case.

Have they not heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?

 

[kybassfan]

Various blue check marks/ and “journalists” etc on Twitter are insinuating this is a racial thing and it’s because Wisemen is black.

You gotta be kidding me.

 

[drbubba]

Maybe Penny thinks Memphis is now the Duke of the south.

Memphis hired Jimmy Smits to represent them, so it must be ok.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

He certainly may know the law but his statement of Memphis HAS to play him is vastly incorrect. A school/coach can not be forced to put anyone into a game, that is done on their own accord. Pretty absurd statement by him TBH.

I think you may be splitting hairs.