Let's answer this...
- Thread starter HD6
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Just shut up. First of all, you do not even realize what team it was that made that OOC schedule good.
I will give you a hint - we beat them in the regional WE HOSTED (another idiot moment by you). You know, the one that was UNANIMOUSLY considered the hardest out there. Oh, then we go to Virginia and sweep (but we were just HOT, right).
I will say that we won in Omaha due to the field, but that is also on Cohen - great planning. Unfortunately UCLA just executed that plan better than us in the Finals.
This
**** kills me. Excusing a solid defensive stat w a ridiculous statement. "YeAH we geT loTS of DPs but itS onLY becaUsE we give up Lots of HIts!!!!1" You may as well throw in a statement about the bats, too.
**** kills me. Excusing a solid defensive stat w a ridiculous statement. "YeAH we geT loTS of DPs but itS onLY becaUsE we give up Lots of HIts!!!!1" You may as well throw in a statement about the bats, too.
Lol maybe when I get up to 40 users names, I'll be able to intellect with you. Central Ark huh? You're actually going to sit here and play make believe that Central Ark is what "made our OOC schedule good". Granted they were respectable and won 40 games in a joke conference. But to assume they made our OOC good or that our OOC schedule now or then was ever "good" is hysterical Cohen backing logic. Thanks for backing up my argument that our OOC schedule is and has been a joke without even really trying. I'm sure Cohen knew Central Ark was going to be our toughest opponent when they were scheduled, sure he did.
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I don't agree with Kurt much but he's right. DP's are a stat that should give credit to the middle infield rather than laying blame for giving up hits or however they got on base. A pitcher's job is to keep people off base but to also erase runners off the base paths. The DP ball does that and means the pitcher did his job in that instance. Sucks that we didn't take advantage of leading a stat like this more. But it's still a damn good stat to be considered one of the leaders in.
Well, there is no definitive proof of what would have happened if he had winning seasons....because he didn't.
Yeah
there's no doubt that there are some ridiculous scores made, occasionally, but it doesn't negate the fact that our defense in the field has been top-notch.
there's no doubt that there are some ridiculous scores made, occasionally, but it doesn't negate the fact that our defense in the field has been top-notch.
Defense.................
I don't disagree that We play pretty good defense physically. I was referring to the mental mistakes We make which there is no excuse for. We had 2 huge ones in the last game.
Our second baseman is just watching the game and fails to cover second on a single to left allowing the hitter to get a free base. Then of course Rea fails to tag out a runner while standing between him and first base with the ball in his glove.
Both of those plays are examples of a poorly coached team. Well coached teams don't have mental lapses like that twice a year , much less twice in one game.
Mental lapses like that are a reflection on whoever is running the team. It does not happen to well coached teams.
I don't disagree that We play pretty good defense physically. I was referring to the mental mistakes We make which there is no excuse for. We had 2 huge ones in the last game.
Our second baseman is just watching the game and fails to cover second on a single to left allowing the hitter to get a free base. Then of course Rea fails to tag out a runner while standing between him and first base with the ball in his glove.
Both of those plays are examples of a poorly coached team. Well coached teams don't have mental lapses like that twice a year , much less twice in one game.
Mental lapses like that are a reflection on whoever is running the team. It does not happen to well coached teams.
Meanwhile ..
We did the same thing 30+ years earlier when we ran off Babe, the most successful coach in MSU history .. for the same reason. Yes, it was a different time in 1965, but I can't help but wonder at the possibilities if we had stuck with Babe.
State had already been selected to play in five NCAATs and that was back when only 22-25 teams made the tournament.
We did the same thing 30+ years earlier when we ran off Babe, the most successful coach in MSU history .. for the same reason. Yes, it was a different time in 1965, but I can't help but wonder at the possibilities if we had stuck with Babe.
State had already been selected to play in five NCAATs and that was back when only 22-25 teams made the tournament.
You really think Templeton would fire Richard Williams after only 2 losing seasons which coincides with 2 years removed from the Final Four?
I think they both played into the decision.
I think they both played into the decision.
I can agree to that but depending on how valid the rumor is - I think the rumor played more into it than the record.
Not disagreeing but Cohen made the tournament the year after. So Williams does not equal Cohen as far as on field results.
I'm
not disputing that our baserunning sucks. I'm speaking to this perception of "defensive mentality" that is somhow quantifiable to ace.
not disputing that our baserunning sucks. I'm speaking to this perception of "defensive mentality" that is somhow quantifiable to ace.
A runner is rarely "sent" to second -- in Cohen's system or Polk's previous one either. The only time a coach comes into play on that is reading the ball to the plate/cutoff once it breaks the baserunner's sight plane -- and to let him know when a catcher is trailing/covering 1B. Basically the hitter/baserunner make their own read when the ball is in front of them, and coaching is only needed to help out with what is going on behind them. Now, once runners are rounding second, it's all on the 3B coach, and I think we're in agreement that Mingione has been a bonehead in that spot, and that our baserunning has never been good or even average under this regime. The primary role of a 1B coach in modern college baseball should be to pick up on pitcher/catcher tendencies, steal pitches, and relay them to the batter. You can do this with ~ 50% of pitchers/catchers from the 1B coaching box perspective if you clue in and really focus on stuff, even without scouting reports on that stuff...
Now, I agree that our baserunning has never truly been good in the Cohen era. Burroughs didn't do the boneheaded stuff at 3B that we have seen under Mingione though. And the mistakes we make between the plate and 2B is on practice teaching and game moxie which all ultimately falls on the coaches. That said, when you play aggressively, only the mistakes/failures are remembered by the masses. Few people remember all the extra bags Cody Brown and others swipe for us with good aggressive baserunning. They could, for all intents and purposes, succeed 80% of the time, and the other 20% a notable portion of the fanbase is going to melt down over.
I'm in agreement that there has to be new blood this year though. Just don't think it's time for it to be Cohen or Butch yet.
Now, I agree that our baserunning has never truly been good in the Cohen era. Burroughs didn't do the boneheaded stuff at 3B that we have seen under Mingione though. And the mistakes we make between the plate and 2B is on practice teaching and game moxie which all ultimately falls on the coaches. That said, when you play aggressively, only the mistakes/failures are remembered by the masses. Few people remember all the extra bags Cody Brown and others swipe for us with good aggressive baserunning. They could, for all intents and purposes, succeed 80% of the time, and the other 20% a notable portion of the fanbase is going to melt down over.
I'm in agreement that there has to be new blood this year though. Just don't think it's time for it to be Cohen or Butch yet.
I think there is a real chance that next year is Cohen's most talent team. We've seen some guys take big jumps in that 3rd year under Cohen: Renfroe, Lindgren, etc.
The Soph on this year team really carried the team: Collins, Humphreys, Houston, Hudson, Sexton, Robson and CBrown (redshirts). If half of them have big jumps, we could have several high draft pics on next year team.
The Soph on this year team really carried the team: Collins, Humphreys, Houston, Hudson, Sexton, Robson and CBrown (redshirts). If half of them have big jumps, we could have several high draft pics on next year team.
I thought Ray was safe. You never know. State is paying alot of money to coaches and spending a lot of money on facilities. Losing I don't think is an option any more for coaches at MSU. We use to keep coaches too long but I think those days are gone. You win or you are gone. I think Cohen gets one more season but you never know if the big contributors are up set or not.<o
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></o>I tried to tell everyone Ray wasn't 100% safe. And I'm saying Cohen isn't 100% safe now. I think his future will be decided by how he handles the end of season review with Stricklin. If he has a good explanation of what went wrong and what major changes he plans to make to be sure it never happens again, I think he probably gets 1 more year. But I definitely think Cohen could lose his job if he blows his performance review.
Agree with most of that. I would say that base running is situational and there is a time to be aggressive and a time to play it safe.
In a tie game , late innings , a guy gets a hit with 2 outs and thinks he can make second base...go for it, worth the risk.
In a tie game , late innings , a guy gets a hit with no outs , I want a paid coach there to stop him from trying for second base unless it is a sure thing he is going to make it.
I can live with getting shot at second for the last out of an inning. It is a baseball sin to make the first out at second unforced.
That is why I want a coach in the box at first to stop that guy from running into the first out of the inning at second base. There should never be a player manning the first base coaching box.
If a coach has to situationally "stop" a guy there -- that team is already defeated at the baserunning mental aspect of the game. All of that is baseball moxie that should be cultivated in practice and beaten into the players situationally. That coach is not "sending" or "holding" hardly anyone -- it's a read play that is more accurately done 9 times out of 10 by a player who has the whole play in front of him rather than a coach that has a play in front of him and baserunner behind him and is blind to/guessing at the progress of his actual baserunner behind him. That player has to know the situation and when it's time to gamble vs when it's time to play it safe. And we haven't done a very good job at that overall over time.
One of the biggest problems I had with this team is the total disconnect across the board. By all accounts, Cohen is a brutally honest coach. If we had any real leaders, they go in his office early on, tell him specifically what part of our approach isn't working for the guys, and we work toward a solution. I hate smallball because it destroys the identity Cohen tries to build as an "aggressive" team. Playing for one in the first is not aggressive, it is as passive as it gets. And he should have figured this out sooner/our team should have made it abundantly clear to him sooner. I do believe he has the ability to introspect -- and fix these issues. He's changed his approach before. Hence why I'm not in favor of making a move yet. Now, if he stubbornly sticks with his guns on this, it will be time for a very serious conversation about it next year.
One of the biggest problems I had with this team is the total disconnect across the board. By all accounts, Cohen is a brutally honest coach. If we had any real leaders, they go in his office early on, tell him specifically what part of our approach isn't working for the guys, and we work toward a solution. I hate smallball because it destroys the identity Cohen tries to build as an "aggressive" team. Playing for one in the first is not aggressive, it is as passive as it gets. And he should have figured this out sooner/our team should have made it abundantly clear to him sooner. I do believe he has the ability to introspect -- and fix these issues. He's changed his approach before. Hence why I'm not in favor of making a move yet. Now, if he stubbornly sticks with his guns on this, it will be time for a very serious conversation about it next year.
I have to nit pick this. If "small ball destroys the identity Cohen tries to build as an aggressive team" , and " Playing for one in the first is not aggressive , it is as passive as it gets"...
How is Cohen trying to build the identity of this team as an aggressive team if he is the one calling for small ball in the first inning?
That is exactly my point. It is inconsistent with the rest of his philosophy and what he is preaching constantly. It's a pretty major incongruence when you are trying to cultivate hard-nosed players that will cut teams' nuts off -- while he is managing for a single run in the first and in essence not trusting his players to get the job done in those situations. He doesn't trust players to get the job done. Which kills the particular players' we have recruited confidence(the "right" guys to deal with this approach go with a 17U I'm getting this done my way and actually get better with this adversity -- which just adds another layer to the failure of this team). Which kills production in those players. Which leads to more early bunting because of even less confidence from Cohen. It's a cycle of failure that has to be cut out at some point in that process -- and neither Cohen nor the team/leaders themselves managed to cut that cycle of failure out this year. It's an across-the-board failure.
The thing about confidence is that it is fleeting in baseball. As quickly as it leaves, it can come back. There was talent on this team, and there damn sure will be next year if as much of the recruiting class show as it's beginning to seem we have a shot at that seemed like no chance guys a couple of weeks ago. But something still has to give. Hopefully, this year "broke" the problem, and it can be approached freshly and differently next year. Every player requires "managing" a little differently to get the most out of them. If Cohen can't find versatility in his managerial style, he's got to recruit to a certain blueprint of player that certainly seemed to have been abandoned. But there appears to be that edge to quite a few guys in the upcoming class, if we can just get them here.
And what if we don't get them here? Not trying to pick fight at all here. Just wondering what we do if say 4-5 of our top guys go pro. Specifically the ones like Riley who are considered our power prospects. What do we do if a worst case scenario happens and we lose the power we signed? Riley and Pickett are both power guys but both are getting projected to jump. Do we then commit to small ball for next year or what do we do? Humphreys and Collins can provide some pop but that's kind of it. Maybe Rooker too. Then it seems like we get back into that same cycle you mentioned with the others.
Your information especially on Riley and Pickett, is pretty outdated based on everything we have projection-wise and on what they are actually saying at this point leading into the draft. Pickett had a lackluster season and has dropped like a rock in draft projections. Most around Riley expect him at MSU next year, to the point that some of them are supremely confident of that happening.
Hump, Collins, Rooker, Gordon, Lowe. All what I would call power guys. Let us not forget that Lowe had 17 bombs in 191 AB in JUCO this year and was initially a Mercer signee, which is one of the best power hitting programs in D1. Swinarski and Waddell both have power potential as well. Holland, Reynolds, Brown, Smith are all potential XBH guys, and although I wouldn't call them bomb threats at this point, I wouldn't say they can't be with a good offseason in the weight room and good summer league performance. Stovall and Marrero both have pretty good pop too. So, you are likely down to just a handful of "small ball" type of position players. I'm fine with a couple of those guys in the lineup if they can give us what Robson did this year.
We can afford to lose a couple in the draft and it still be an elite class. The pitching side is where it's truly elite and probably the best we've ever had.
Hump, Collins, Rooker, Gordon, Lowe. All what I would call power guys. Let us not forget that Lowe had 17 bombs in 191 AB in JUCO this year and was initially a Mercer signee, which is one of the best power hitting programs in D1. Swinarski and Waddell both have power potential as well. Holland, Reynolds, Brown, Smith are all potential XBH guys, and although I wouldn't call them bomb threats at this point, I wouldn't say they can't be with a good offseason in the weight room and good summer league performance. Stovall and Marrero both have pretty good pop too. So, you are likely down to just a handful of "small ball" type of position players. I'm fine with a couple of those guys in the lineup if they can give us what Robson did this year.
We can afford to lose a couple in the draft and it still be an elite class. The pitching side is where it's truly elite and probably the best we've ever had.
That's good news and hope you're right on Riley and Pickett.
I don't mind what type of seasons they had. You can't teach or coach 6'3, 200+. 2 guys that will definitely drive the baseball. For all the flack we give our players' sizes, that's 2 guys that will more than look the part.
I don't mind what type of seasons they had. You can't teach or coach 6'3, 200+. 2 guys that will definitely drive the baseball. For all the flack we give our players' sizes, that's 2 guys that will more than look the part.
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