Why do you think that? He's comparable in size (height/weight) to the best PGs of the 90s (minus guys like Magic who were more like point forwards). He'd definitely have reduced production getting banged and checked much more frequently, but I never understood the "he'd get hurt" mentality, as if he's so much lighter/scrawnier than the guys at his position in the 90s.
Jordan vs Curry
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Why do you think that? He's comparable in size (height/weight) to the best PGs of the 90s (minus guys like Magic who were more like point forwards). He'd definitely have reduced production getting banged and checked much more frequently, but I never understood the "he'd get hurt" mentality, as if he's so much lighter/scrawnier than the guys at his position in the 90s.
I don't think he is comparable size. And guys like Oakley and Rodman wouldn't let him get to the rim without serious body contact. Stuff that gets you fined and kicked out now were just fouls back then. He'd be much more one dimensional than he even is now.
This Jordan Curry discussion is silly not even worth entertaining. A better discussion is Klay Thompson better than Curry. Very possible.
This Jordan Curry discussion is silly not even worth entertaining. A better discussion is Klay Thompson better than Curry. Very possible.
Curry fits right in size-wise (height/weight) with the top PGs of the 1980s-1990s. Top point guards assembled from multiple "best point guards" lists. Heights/weights taken from basketball-reference.com
5-10, 171 Damon Stoudamire
6-0, 168 Kenny Anderson
6-0, 170 Mark Price
6-0, 175 Tim Hardaway
6-0, 180 Mookie Blaylock
6-1, 150 Nate Archibald
6-1, 170 John Stockton
6-1, 180 Isaiah Thomas
6-1, 180 Maurice Cheeks
6-1, 180 Mark Jackson
6-1, 180 Kevin Johnson
6-3, 170 Fat Lever
6-3, 170 Sleepy Floyd
6-3, 175 Rod Strickland
6-3, 185 Sam Cassell
6-3, 185 Steph Curry
6-3, 195 Steve Nash
6-3, 195 Terry Porter
6-4, 180 Gary Payton
6-4, 185 Dennis Johnson
6-4, 185 Derek Harper
6-4, 205 Jason Kidd
6-7, 195 Anfernee Hardaway
6-9, 215 Magic Johnson
Slightly above the average in both height and weight among those players.
Edit: to add in some more guys that go back to the 1980s
5-10, 171 Damon Stoudamire
6-0, 168 Kenny Anderson
6-0, 170 Mark Price
6-0, 175 Tim Hardaway
6-0, 180 Mookie Blaylock
6-1, 150 Nate Archibald
6-1, 170 John Stockton
6-1, 180 Isaiah Thomas
6-1, 180 Maurice Cheeks
6-1, 180 Mark Jackson
6-1, 180 Kevin Johnson
6-3, 170 Fat Lever
6-3, 170 Sleepy Floyd
6-3, 175 Rod Strickland
6-3, 185 Sam Cassell
6-3, 185 Steph Curry
6-3, 195 Steve Nash
6-3, 195 Terry Porter
6-4, 180 Gary Payton
6-4, 185 Dennis Johnson
6-4, 185 Derek Harper
6-4, 205 Jason Kidd
6-7, 195 Anfernee Hardaway
6-9, 215 Magic Johnson
Slightly above the average in both height and weight among those players.
Edit: to add in some more guys that go back to the 1980s
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Some of those guys didn't play in the late 80's early 90's. A number of them didn't try to get to the rim with regularity. They would have gotten hurt. Did you watch NBA basketball in that era?
Yes, and it was a very different game. The role of the point guard was very different then from now, and the rule changes of about ten years ago have completely transformed the position. To be honest, though, I've never been a big NBA fan (then or now).
These were all PGs who played during the 80s and 90s, who were all considered some of the best at that position during those decades. If Curry were playing PG at that time, he'd be slightly above average in terms of height/weight... but largely in line with expectation.
The role Curry plays on the floor, though, would be much more akin in that era to a shooting guard who also brought the ball up the floor. When comparing to shooting guards, he is definitely small - but he's not a shooting guard, he's a point guard.
Just generally speaking of great distance shooters, anybody remember Jimmy Rayl from Indiana? I was a big Ohio State fan at the time (Lucas, Havlicek, Siegfried... and sixth man: Bobby Knight), but Indiana could run and gun with the best of them and Rayl never cared how far he was away from the basket. Dischinger at Purdue then, but Rayl and the Van Arsdale twins were a very good ball club.
Best players in order in the finals so far:
1) Thompson
2) Lebron
3) Irving
4) Green
5) Curry
There was never a time when Jordan wasn't the man. Dude was winning championships with guys no one even remembers.
1) Thompson
2) Lebron
3) Irving
4) Green
5) Curry
There was never a time when Jordan wasn't the man. Dude was winning championships with guys no one even remembers.
Thompson, really? He wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire the first three games (averaged 12 ppg) , though he's come on much stronger in Games 4 and 5.
Best individual player for me in this finals so far would be a toss up between James/Irving... but GSW has a much better supporting cast around their best two players, making them the better overall team.
Based on stats combined with O rating/ D rating
GSW MVP
Dray
Steph
Klay
(Steph and Klay are pretty close)
Cle
Lebron
Kyrie
Steph has the edge for GSW barring Dray going off over these next two games (can't see NBA giving MVP to a player who was suspended when their poster-boy is also on the team)
Lebron has easily been the best player (overall) thus far in these finals.
Pretty sure everyone remembers Scottie Pippen. I'd imagine most people who were watching basketball during that era remember Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman, too.
Looks like James reinforced that tonight. 41 pts, 11 ast, 8 rbs, 3 blks (with a stretch of 18 consecutive points to keep the Cavs out in front) to force a Game 7.
Curry fouled out and ejected, Thompson struggling a lot in the first half... Cavs seemed to get in their heads tonight. Gonna be a great game to watch on Sunday.
Yea, don't forget those other incredible stars like Luc Longley, Craig Hodges, and BJ Armstrong.
Update on players:
Lebron
Irving
Green
Thompson/Curry
Lebron has clearly cemented himself as the alpha of the league, regardless of who has the MVP trophy.
Yes, the Bulls had a lot of roleplayers, but Jordan wasn't going it alone with a bunch of nobodies (see: Cavs from 2005-09) - he had a Hall of Famer at small forward in every championship season, and a very talented third option down low (Grant/Rodman). In 20 years, I don't think people are going to really remember the roleplayers on these teams... they'll remember Curry/Thompson (and maybe Green or Iguodala) and James/Irving (and maybe Love). Similar with Jordan/Pippen.
In this series, the GSW roleplayers just seem to have much more depth and ability to step up than the Cavs... though last night, the Cavs bench finally seemed to turn those tables a bit.
I agree, though, that Lebron is alpha in the league right now. He's daring them to stop him, and they just haven't been able to. Looking forward to Game 7.
It was Jordan and Pippen and a bunch of nobodies. Grant didn't do much when he left and Rodman was a wonderful role player. Put Curry on that team and remove Jordan and they aren't winning much.
But let's never talk about this Curry Jordan thing again. He is a petulant child with no where near the skill of Jordan. It's a joke to even consider.
But let's never talk about this Curry Jordan thing again. He is a petulant child with no where near the skill of Jordan. It's a joke to even consider.
It was Jordan/Pippen... and a bunch of roleplayers that supported Phil Jackson's system. GSW is really just Curry/Thompson... and a bunch of roleplayers that support Steve Kerr's system. The game has changed a lot, so today's system much better supports a 1/2 pairing than a 2/3 pairing (though Cleveland is using a 1/3 pairing).
The tantrum last night was ridiculous, though. Like it or not, Steph, you're one of the top faces of the NBA - cursing off a ref on the court and throwing your mouthpiece into the fans is completely unacceptable. It was like a toddler stamping his feet because he couldn't have any more cake.
Game 7 should be interesting, though.... Irving's foot, Iguodala's back, Bogut's absence, Curry's composure, what sort of officiating we'll see, whether James can go for a third game of 40+, etc.... lots of great storylines to watch.
The tantrum last night was ridiculous, though. Like it or not, Steph, you're one of the top faces of the NBA - cursing off a ref on the court and throwing your mouthpiece into the fans is completely unacceptable. It was like a toddler stamping his feet because he couldn't have any more cake.
Game 7 should be interesting, though.... Irving's foot, Iguodala's back, Bogut's absence, Curry's composure, what sort of officiating we'll see, whether James can go for a third game of 40+, etc.... lots of great storylines to watch.
Iguadala is a roleplayer? He was the Finals MVP last year, and a relatively recent olympian. There was talk of Barnes being a max contract player before he disappeared these last two games, and Draymond Green is an All Star and All-NBA defender. Add in Barbosa, Bogut and Livingston (and theoretically Ezeli, though he has also played terribly of late) and this is a pretty loaded team. The Bulls had a much bigger drop-off in talent after Jordan/Pippen.
The Bulls definitely had a dropoff after Jordan/Pippen (though Rodman could probably constitute a third part of a "Big Three" for the second 3-peat), and I agree that it's a steeper one than Golden State. I just don't think it's as steep as it's being made out to be.
This season, Curry and Thompson scored 44.0% of their team's regular season points. During the first Bulls 3-peat, Jordan/Pippen accounted for 44.8%, 45.8%, and 46.9% of their team's points. During the second 3-peat, they accounted for 46.2%, 48.3%, and 40.3% of their team's points.
As for Iguodala, he's a very good player but isn't even a starter. Barnes and Green are also very good... but are they really any better than Kukoc/Rodman were in 1996-98? Barbosa, Bogut, and Livingston are definitely roleplayers - solid depth, but not people you'd consistently rely on as major contributors (though, Boguts absence on defense has certainly been felt).
Curry can't carry a bad team with his game, but he's perfect for his team and his system. This thread title is ridiculous.
IMO Curry can take a B/B+ team and make them an A/A+ team, doesn't have the ability to make a C team an A-/A team.
Offensively Curry is special, has the best shot in the league. Multiple point guards are better scorers in the paint than him.
Led the league in steals, but gets to hide a little on defense. Klay matches up with the other teams best perimeter player almost every night. Not sure many (if any) can stay in front of Kyrie right now, but Klay at least looks competent guarding him...Curry was blown by every time they found themselves 1 on 1 (foul trouble played a part also).
Hypotheticals are tough, but just as you're rewarded for the benefits of playing on a good team you have to be criticized for what you're not forced to do as well. Curry's Assist/TO ratio has been trash, passes to wide open 3 point shooters are nice when they're hitting those shots...enough misses and everyone starts yelling at you for not taking the shot yourself.
Somehow Curry (who is a top 4/5 NBA player IMO) has become overrated, hard to do when you're that good...
Yes, last years Finals MVP wasn't even a starter. Thanks for reinforcing my point about the team's depth and overall talent.
Jordan and Pippen accounted for a similar % of points as Curry Thompson, but compare Jordan's defense and overall contributions to Curry's and the conversation ends very quickly.
I'll grant you Barnes and Green are somewhat comparable to Kukoc and Rodman (though significantly more well-rounded overall) but you don't see players the likes of Luc Longley or Bill Wennington logging significant minutes for Golden State, and they don't rely on contributions from one-dimensional shooters like Paxson or BJ Armstrong.
Not sure what you mean by the conversation ends very quickly... the conversation was the dropoff between the top two and the rest of the team. I don't think there's the same continental-shelf-like dropoff between Jordan/Pippen and the rest of the Bulls that you do, though I did agree that there was more of a dropoff between the Bulls of that era and GS today.
And the original comment that started the discussion wasn't even about a Big Two vs. the rest... it was that Jordan was winning championships with guys nobody even remembers. It was Jordan/Pippen winning championships with a few other solid roleplayers that fit Jackson's system.
You asserted that Jordan/Pippen accounted for a similar % of their team's points as Curry/Thompson as a way to seemingly assess their relative talent to the rest of their respective teams. I was illustrating that is an incomplete way of looking at overall worth, since Jordan and Pippen were both excellent defenders and Curry can hide on defense as others in this thread mention, leaving Clay Thompson, Green and Iguadala to do the heavy lifting on defense.
You may not see a continental shelf like drop-off on those Bulls teams and that's fine, but I adamantly disagree and rest my case with my prior posts.
That's fair - the comparison was meant to show similarities offensively between two teams that rely on two primary scorers and secondary players who aren't called upon to do as much heavy lifting offensively. In these finals, James/Irving also fit that mold (since Love has disappeared).
Defensively, there is definitely a bigger dropoff than offensively, I agree... especially between the current GSW and the 91-93 Bulls, as opposed to the 94-96 Bulls (who had Rodman, too).
Agree - Curry disappeared last night. Thompson did too, for long stretches. Cavs did a very good job forcing Curry to play defense, which he just wasn't able to do. They had three chances to close this series out, two at home, and couldn't do it.
Should end any Curry/Jordan discussion for a good long while (forever?). Maybe Reggie Miller is a better comparison in that era?
Lebron has certainly increased his list of accolades, though, and picked up a well earned Finals MVP trophy.
Jordan takes a lot of the credit for the success of those teams (rightfully so), but they were a good team without him. The year he retired and went to play baseball, the Bulls won 55 games and finished 2nd in the east.
I completely agree that there isn't any comparison with Jordan and Curry, but MJ did have a good team around him.
NBA hater here. Watched the 4th quarter. That isn't basketball. Curry end game shot was absurd. I get that it goes in. It isn't basketball. Nothing happens off the ball, there is no passing, it is all isolation. Watching guys hoist and force shots isn't my cup of tea.
Curry is a great player and maybe a future hall of famer but he is not in Jordan catagory
Then again...many other Hall of gamers aren't either
Then again...many other Hall of gamers aren't either
I get that you don't watch the NBA often (neither do I), but the brand of basketball GS plays actually has a lot of movement off the ball and a ton of passing to find the open man - because they have a ton of good three point shooters. It's how Draymond Green went 5-for-5 from range to start the game, because the extra pass found him open.
Cleveland, on the other hand, tended this Finals to rely more on the ball staying in either Lebron or Kyrie's hands, trying to get a mismatch, and waiting for 6 seconds on the shot clock to make a move.
Edit: Not that there's anything wrong or right about either style, since the game is about finishing with more points. Cleveland was often able to get Curry on an island defensively and expose him, which was the gameplan, and it worked.
Jordan was outstanding but he and Pippen were the 2 best players at the time in the NBA and on the same team. Jordan also had the best rebounder in Rodman and had Grant and Kukoc who were also very good. Kerr, Harper, Paxson etc. all were important too. The Bulls were loaded. The 60's had Robertson, Russell, Chamberlain, West, Baylor etc. who were all outstanding. Robertson could do it all and no one ever put up the numbers that Wilt did. Russell was surrounded by Cousy, Sharman, Havlicheck, Sam Jones, Howell, K C Jones, Ramsey and others I probably missed that were all great. Wilt's supporting cast with the Warriors was no where near as good as what Russell had on the Celtics. Wilt averaged one year over 51 points a game. He was to me by far the best center ever to play the game.
Simple, but true. Curry is a terrific, elite scorer, but the rest of his game is not nearly at the same level. LeBron can dominate in so many other ways, as his triple double in game 7 showed. He can block shots, rebound, dish and score at an elite level. He also stepped up under pressure in the finals, while Curry quite simply did not.
FIG, know you as one of the guys on the board who really knows hoops, but come on, what the Warriors run is not "isolation."