How much does coaching matter really?

[IndyCat1995]

Okay, hear me out. The bottom line in sports is that the teams with the best players usually win. No one could have saved us Tuesday night. Duke's players were better than ours. No amount of adjusting could have helped. Duke has the top three picks in the NBA Draft and Kentucky does not.

Now, it does matter to an extent but more along the lines of if your team is capable of doing what the coach wants. Adjustments matter when you have players that can fulfill what you ask. On Tuesday, we had no one that could handle Duke's big three. The answer to that could be different in March. I hope it is. But right now, in November what can Cal do? He's won a lot of games here and the past tells me we'll be playing real good ball this Spring. And the Cal "haters" will slowly disappear.

Nick Saban isn't winning a title with a roster full of 2 stars. Bill Belichick isn't winning a Super Bowl with Nathan Peterman as his QB. A coach is only as good as his players.

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

It matters a lot less than most people would like to admit.

 

[Collison1]

Okay, hear me out. The bottom line in sports is that the teams with the best players usually win. No one could have saved us Tuesday night. Duke's players were better than ours. No amount of adjusting could have helped. Duke has the top three picks in the NBA Draft and Kentucky does not.

Now, it does matter to an extent but more along the lines of if your team is capable of doing what the coach wants. Adjustments matter when you have players that can fulfill what you ask. On Tuesday, we had no one that could handle Duke's big three. The answer to that could be different in March. I hope it is. But right now, in November what can Cal do? He's won a lot of games here and the past tells me we'll be playing real good ball this Spring. And the Cal "haters" will slowly disappear.

Nick Saban isn't winning a title with a roster full of 2 stars. Bill Belichick isn't winning a Super Bowl with Nathan Peterman as his QB. A coach is only as good as his players.

Here is where Villanova ranked in recruiting as a team:

2017: 21st
2016: 47th
2015: 29th
2014: 48th
2013: 36th

 

[mjj_2K]

Here is where Villanova ranked in recruiting as a team:

2017: 21st
2016: 47th
2015: 29th
2014: 48th
2013: 36th

And they had 3 players taken in the 1st round of this year's draft, none of whom was Jalen Brunson, their All-American PG.

Great coaching, or great scouting, or really just lucky? Hard to tell.

 

[LadyCaytIL]

Wright’s won two titles with different players. And dominated at that. It’s definitely both coaching and scouting.

 

[baboo]

And they had 3 players taken in the 1st round of this year's draft, none of whom was Jalen Brunson, their All-American PG.

Great coaching, or great scouting, or really just lucky? Hard to tell.

Jay Wright didn't win because he had future NBA players on his team, as if being a draft pick is somehow set in stone. It's just the opposite. He got players drafted because he taught them well and coached them to win.

Here are the HS ranks of 'Nova's last 5 draft picks:

Hart_____________79 (2013)
Bridges__________81 (2014)
DiVincenzo______124 (2015)
Spellman________20 (2016)
Brunson_________22 (2015)

Only Spellman and Brunson could have been expected to be drafted, and they were the lowest draft picks of the 5.

 

[Random UK Fan]

Enough that there are only a couple of coaches currently that most UK fans would accept as Cal’s replacement one day.

 

[KyFaninNC]

No amount of adjusting could have helped. Duke has the top three picks in the NBA Draft and Kentucky does not.

So Duke's 3 players beat our whole team by 34? Gotcha

 

[Joneslab]

Coaching is essential.

First, recruiting is coaching. But preparation is just as important. Preparation is a lot of times psychological as much as physical, and Cal's teams usually are very good in that facet. He clearly spends a lot of time trying to get their minds right. That's an underappreciated side of coaching.

There's a good scene in The Miracle of St. Anthony, the book on Bobby Hurley, where Hurley's team goes to a summer event without Hurley. They don't have a coach. They show up, ragtag, no uniforms, and somebody in the crowd notes to another coach that they're going to get slaughtered by the team they're playing. Other guy looks over and says, "That's Hurley's team. They're going to beat the hell out of that other bunch." They proceed to go out and look like a machine. They've been brought along to the point that they can coach themselves.

You can always tell when teams are coached up, and that goes for every level down to youth basketball. Kentucky is absolutely not coached up right now, but one thing about Cal: he has way more patience than the average fan.

 

[precipitance]

Different sysyems with different philosophies. Jay recruites stay longer than one or two years. Cal has to develope an entirely new team each year. Cal never knows when things will click or what to expect from his ever changing peices. Jay has a foundation to build apon each year. What does Jay do if he follows Cal's plan?Cal did pretty well with Jay's plan when he first started out coaching. When Cal could get better players he changed his plan. Maybe the discussion should be, how should Cal tweak his plan to get the best of both worlds? Maybe we need to tweak our expectations? Cal is great coach and we are lucky to have him.

 

[jrm693]

The old saying is that it is not about Xs and Os but Jimmys and Joes has a lot of merit. Rick Byrd at Belmont and Pete Carril at Princeton beg to differ, remember the old back door plays that have sent several more powerful teams packing, but alas in the end not enough talent to go all the way. Cal has to use his players to steal a term from SIU coach in microwave fashion, he has just a few months to turn them from HS superstars to NBA draft picks, I do wish we could use a little zone here and there and spring more open shots from screens but it won't work in Cals system. His system has produced 3 final fours and a lot of great memories.

 

[K-Town Kat]

Different sysyems with different philosophies. Jay recruites stay longer than one or two years. Cal has to develope an entirely new team each year. Cal never knows when things will click or what to expect from his ever changing peices. Jay has a foundation to build apon each year. What does Jay do if he follows Cal's plan?Cal did pretty well with Jay's plan when he first started out coaching. When Cal could get better players he changed his plan. Maybe the discussion should be, how should Cal tweak his plan to get the best of both worlds? Maybe we need to tweak our expectations? Cal is great coach and we are lucky to have him.

Cal certainly needs to tweak his plan. Reinvent himself and his staff.

We do not need to tweak our expectations. At Kentucky, expectations are being legitimate national championship contenders. Cal makes more than like 4 NBA coaches. Makes more than anyone else in college not named Coach K.

He states we're the gold standard. Our expectations are to be such.

 

[TortElvisII]

Villanova players stuck around to take 200 level courses.

 

[DeepColor]

Villanova gets nowhere if their players even only stayed 2 years, much less 1. They probably actually don’t make Final 4 if they leave after 3 years.

 

[Bluegrassking]

Considerably, especially when you accept that getting the talent, managing personalities, motivation and overall program management are just as much coaching as drawing up plays and scouting.

 

[RipThru]

Why the hell would you fire a coach if coaching doesn’t matter?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Too many fans think coaching is just drawing up out of bounds plays and deciding when to play zone defense.

They're also way too focused on specific individual moments. Tony Bennett was national coach of the year and lost to a 16 seed. Coach K is the best to ever do it and has been embarrassed by mid-majors in the tournament more times than he's won the title. But Coach Cal loses to Wisconsin or PJ misses a hundred free throws and he's just a recruiter.

Those same people worship Jay Wright or Tom Izzo or whoever the current flavor is. Take a look at their total body of work and see how it stacks up.

 

[blubo]

So Duke's 3 players beat our whole team by 34? Gotcha

Their 3 players scored 83 points. our whole team scored 84.

 

[seccats04]

Different sysyems with different philosophies. Jay recruites stay longer than one or two years. Cal has to develope an entirely new team each year. Cal never knows when things will click or what to expect from his ever changing peices. Jay has a foundation to build apon each year. What does Jay do if he follows Cal's plan?Cal did pretty well with Jay's plan when he first started out coaching. When Cal could get better players he changed his plan. Maybe the discussion should be, how should Cal tweak his plan to get the best of both worlds? Maybe we need to tweak our expectations? Cal is great coach and we are lucky to have him.

Cal CHOOSES to build his teams this way. Nobody is forcing him. His way is not the only successful way. In fact, if you look at recent history the model that UNCheat and Nova are using may be the new way to go, especially if you're not getting the cream of the crop like we are now.

 

[CELTICAT]

Everyone wants well coached talent.

 

[kb22stang]

And they had 3 players taken in the 1st round of this year's draft, none of whom was Jalen Brunson, their All-American PG.

Great coaching, or great scouting, or really just lucky? Hard to tell.

Very good coaching and scouting and Jay isn't telling kids that the NBA is the PRIMARY reason to come play for him.

Our status as a B+ program is born of two factors:
1. Cal isn't landing the elite players any more, or at least not enough in any one year to be an elite team
2. His whole pitch since he's been at UK has been NBA, which has created a culture were if you stay past one year that somehow you are remedial.

Coaching doesn't matter if you're only keep kids one year, it's all about motivating them to play hard.

 

[Jazzycat]

These days, you have to teach everything to players, so coaches have to:

Recruit
Motivate
Teach fundamentals
Prepare
Counsel
Parent
Teach work ethic

It is the rare player that comes in fundamentally sound, highly skilled and motivated to win and work hard. SGA was an exceptional player and was rewarded for that.

So, coaching philosophies must constantly adjust to the dynamics of the team and if you build your team on a philosophy of longevity (ala Jay Wright), you have a longer period of time to build a more complete team.

 

[baboo]

Villanova gets nowhere if their players even only stayed 2 years, much less 1. They probably actually don’t make Final 4 if they leave after 3 years.

DC,

While this is probably true, it's also the case that Spellman only played one year, DiVincenzo only played two years, etc., and every player drafted from 'Nova this year had at least one year of eligibility left. It's incorrect to say that Jay keeps his players, or makes them stay around. He hasn't had any true OADs because the NBA hasn't been high on his players. They all come back because they're being told they won't be drafted.

Jay has been clear that he'd love to get some OADs and has been trying to recruit them, but none has come so far. That's probably because he makes clear that players earn floor time by playing great defense within his system and a lot of top players, despite being strong defenders, recognize that they won't get on the floor if they don't commit to his system. In other words, he's happy to accept OADs but won't change his recruiting for them, so his pitch doesn't sound as attractive to that kind of player. Consequently, he gets a team of very good players who are simply not ready for the big show for several years.

In any case, I would never argue that UK should follow Jay's recruiting approach. Cal has his own approach and it has worked really well. The question is how to have 'Nova's championship success with Cal's recruiting approach. It can be done, I'm sure, but not without some changes in team composition.

 

[akaukswoosh]

How much does coaching matter really?

'Who's asking?' - Adolph Rupp

 

[mjj_2K]

Jay Wright didn't win because he had future NBA players on his team, as if being a draft pick is somehow set in stone. It's just the opposite. He got players drafted because he taught them well and coached them to win.

Here are the HS ranks of 'Nova's last 5 draft picks:

Hart_____________79 (2013)
Bridges__________81 (2014)
DiVincenzo______124 (2015)
Spellman________20 (2016)
Brunson_________22 (2015)

Only Spellman and Brunson could have been expected to be drafted, and they were the lowest draft picks of the 5.

Right, but is that really all player development, or was it kind of lucking into the right guys? Wright has been at Villanova a while, and it's not like he was always putting a bunch of guys into the pros. That included many who were rated far higher coming out of HS than Hart, Bridges, and DiVincenzo.

Every coach has runs where the talent he signs is better or worse than expected. EVERY coach. Krzyzewski signed Laettner, Hurley, and Hill, then that became Parks, Wojo, and Capel. Tubby snagged some great hidden gems in Fitch, Daniels, and Estill, and then that became Brandon Stockton, Sheray Thomas, and Shagari Alleyne.

Wright has done a superb job, but I'm not going to be convinced he found some magic formula that people should try to copy.

How did Billy Donovan do after Noah, Horford, and Brewer left? He did OK, had one great season, but CLEARLY there was no "system" thing that could replicate those guys. So we'll see what happens with Villanova.

 

[tbubba9896]

I'd say it's about 50/50. A funny thing though, our principal had to be our coach my junior year because they either couldn't find or afford one. Because he knew nothing about coaching, all we did every practice was scrimmage and conditioning. That was the best team we had for the amount of talent we had. My freshman year we were loaded with talent and did no better in the postseason tournament than my junior year and had a more than decent coach. Stuff happens that's hard to explain sometimes.

I would like for once see Cal limit his sideline screaming to about 80% and coach the players during timeouts. I can see pointing out certain things during a game but as many directions/instructions he yells during the game, it surprises me the players can even take a step without being told to. I'm not saying some don't need to be told that but most have a pretty good idea of what's going on.

 

[KentuckySir2]

If you can get top 5 talent then coaching is secondary. Otherwise see how much Cal has to coach to stay in games.

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

70% recruiting
30% Cs and Os

You need to be very good in both but of course if you're lights out in either one you'll have a shot. But best to be lights out in recruiting. Then you can just roll the ball out.

 

[bkingUK]

If two rosters are exactly even, it matters a whole whole lot

 

[RipThru]

Tell Brad Stevens at Butler coaching doesn't matter.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Tell Brad Stevens at Butler coaching doesn't matter.

We can't, because after coaching future pros like Shelvin Mack and Gordon Hayward, he went to the NBA where he's continued to improve as a coach as the Celtics have added star young talent to the roster.

 

[mjj_2K]

We can't, because after coaching future pros like Shelvin Mack and Gordon Hayward, he went to the NBA where he's continued to improve as a coach as the Celtics have added star young talent to the roster.

And that came after his last year at Butler, when he went 22-15 and played in the CBI. Which everyone forgets.

Stevens appears to be a great coach. Ditto Jay Wright. But the bottom line is to win (not just titles), and Cal's done more of that at the college level than either.

 

[GonzoCat90]

And that came after his last year at Butler, when he went 22-15 and played in the CBI. Which everyone forgets.

Stevens appears to be a great coach. Ditto Jay Wright. But the bottom line is to win (not just titles), and Cal's done more of that at the college level than either.

For longer. At more places.

We're just so narrowly focused on our own program that we ignore the failures of others and only notice their successes. Meanwhile, we dwell on our failures.

There's also a really miserable segment of our fanbase. We could win the title this year and they'd still be hurt over the Duke loss or the 38-1 team.

 

[gracetoyou]

Here is where Villanova ranked in recruiting as a team:

2017: 21st
2016: 47th
2015: 29th
2014: 48th
2013: 36th

Dude....it wasn't Jay Wright's coaching. What changed is so many early draft entries in college basketball while Villanova has been keeping players all 4 years. That's changing now & Jay's success will change with it.

 

[gracetoyou]

Jay Wright didn't win because he had future NBA players on his team, as if being a draft pick is somehow set in stone. It's just the opposite. He got players drafted because he taught them well and coached them to win.

Here are the HS ranks of 'Nova's last 5 draft picks:

Hart_____________79 (2013)
Bridges__________81 (2014)
DiVincenzo______124 (2015)
Spellman________20 (2016)
Brunson_________22 (2015)

Only Spellman and Brunson could have been expected to be drafted, and they were the lowest draft picks of the 5.

[roll]

Ok

 

[JC CATS]

Cal and Billy Clyde, who can tell the difference?

 

[IndyCat1995]

Motivation is a big factor too. Some coaches can inspire kids to play better than what was thought possible. That's a big reason four our 2014 tourney run. Cal used the underdog role well to fire the guys up

 

[mustnotsleepnow]

Too many fans think coaching is just drawing up out of bounds plays and deciding when to play zone defense.

They're also way too focused on specific individual moments. Tony Bennett was national coach of the year and lost to a 16 seed. Coach K is the best to ever do it and has been embarrassed by mid-majors in the tournament more times than he's won the title. But Coach Cal loses to Wisconsin or PJ misses a hundred free throws and he's just a recruiter.

Those same people worship Jay Wright or Tom Izzo or whoever the current flavor is. Take a look at their total body of work and see how it stacks up.

This post should be pinned.

 

[7ringsNcounting]

Please nobody take this wrong, but I want to play devil's advocate here, If Ricky P. had been here these past 10 years with the same players Cal has recruited I can't help but believe Ky. would have picked up 3 to 4 more championships than what we have now.... Just by coaching...please do not confuse all the noise that surrounds RP, just evaluate this equation on coaching alone. This is the difference of coaching players great or recruiting great players. its a shame we don't have a K here that can do both and I hate K but you have to give it to the old man he gets the best out of his players than they will ever be and he adapts over the years to over come the game and be the best at what he does..... recruit & coach. Think what it would be like if Cal could get Rick as assistant on the bench.....2 big ego's waiting to explode I know but they would be unbeatable as a TEAM.
just saying ….. difference of coaching and recruiting ????

 

[mktmaker]

For what it's worth...

A lot of people on this board disparage John Wooden, though Wooden had retired before most of them were born.

Anyway, Wooden never went to a Final Four in his first 15 years at UCLA.

By the time Walt Hazzard was a senior, they (with the help of Gail Goodrich and several other good players) went 30-0 and won their first NCAA championship.

They won a second the following year, and parlayed those championships into getting good, great, and legendary players and won 10 national titles in 12 years.

Did Wooden get brilliant overnight? Of course not.

But when he got the horses he knew what to do with them.


(Yes, I know all about Sam Gilbert.)