From the Purdue forum

sunsetregret

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Apr 2, 2018
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Yes, and you are still reading it wrong. The four indicators are the elements that need to be met to be considered targeting. If any one of them are met during a tackle, it is targeting because that is considered as attacking beyond making a legal tackle.

You must have watched enough football to see how the rule is actually interpreted. Let go of the specific Purdue play for now and think about times where a DB leaves his feet and hits someone in the head and neck area. Do they try and figure out "intent", or whether the force of the tackle is more than normal? No, it is targeting automatically under indicator 1, Launching and hitting above the neck. The indicator for hitting with the crown of the helmet is no different.

If the contact is not made with the defenseless player's head or neck, the rule requires intent to hit with the crown of the helmet. It's right there in the definition of "targeting" in the rulebook. I will quote it again (and keep quoting it until it's acknowledged) ...

“Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball.

What is the definition of "purpose"?

Dictionary.com
1. the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
2. an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.
3. determination; resoluteness.

It's not enough that it look icky. The player has to actually satisfy the elements of the rule (all of the elements) in order to violate the rule. Intent to hit with the crown of the helmet is one of the elements.
 

Knight Shift

Heisman
May 19, 2011
88,620
86,618
113
Actually I went to South Side H.S. also in Newark.I remember Garfield going down to Florida to play in a type of Championship game. Their Star was a player named Benny Babula.That WAS 81 years ago but I am quite sure of his name.
I hope to have the memory you have 10 years from now, let alone 40 years from now. You are awesome!


When Hank Gola was growing up in Garfield, there was no greater legend than Benny Babula.
Babula owned a meat-distribution business in the Bergen County city. “We kids would go over to the place and marvel at how he would throw a big side of beef over his shoulders,” says Gola, a former sportswriter for the New York Post and New York Daily News.
But Babula’s legend was based on more than beef. In his high school days, Babula was the best football player in Garfield history. . . . .
 

krup

Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
70,133
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If the contact is not made with the defenseless player's head or neck, the rule requires intent to hit with the crown of the helmet. It's right there in the definition of "targeting" in the rulebook. I will quote it again (and keep quoting it until it's acknowledged) ...

“Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball.

What is the definition of "purpose"?

Dictionary.com
1. the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
2. an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.
3. determination; resoluteness.

It's not enough that it look icky. The player has to actually satisfy the elements of the rule (all of the elements) in order to violate the rule. Intent to hit with the crown of the helmet is one of the elements.
I can write it every possible way and you still can’t seem to get it.

The defender is in control of his own body, so making a tackle with the crown of the helmet is considered “taking aim for the purposes of attacking with forcible contact beyond making a legal tackle”.

The indicator satisfies the definition. There are no other hurdles.
 

sunsetregret

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I can write it every possible way and you still can’t seem to get it.

The defender is in control of his own body, so making a tackle with the crown of the helmet is considered “taking aim for the purposes of attacking with forcible contact beyond making a legal tackle”.

The indicator satisfies the definition. There are no other hurdles.

Then why isn't the rule exactly the same as the rule for making contact to the head and neck? Why are there two different rules? Why are the rule elements different if intent is not meant to be part of the rule for contact below the neck (as it is explicitly included)?

Why isn't it just one single rule?: No contact with the crown of the helmet anywhere on the body.
 

ruready07

All-American
Apr 15, 2003
43,484
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Actually I went to South Side H.S. also in Newark.I remember Garfield going down to Florida to play in a type of Championship game. Their Star was a player named Benny Babula.That WAS 81 years ago but I am quite sure of his name.

Haha you nailed it . Babula and the boys went down to the orange bowl for a Christmas Day national championship. The book talks about the Newark teams and all the other top schools at the time as well . Take care
 

krup

Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
70,133
10,066
0
Then why isn't the rule exactly the same as the rule for making contact to the head and neck? Why are there two different rules? Why are the rule elements different if intent is not meant to be part of the rule for contact below the neck (as it is explicitly included)?

Why isn't it just one single rule?: No contact with the crown of the helmet anywhere on the body.
There aren't two different rules. There is one targeting rule with four distinct, specified, ways a player can commit targeting.

The reason the "crown of the helmet" one seems different is because they are trying to accomplish a different thing with that one than they are with the other three. Three of the indicators are to protect the safety of the player being hit, the "crown of the helmet" indicator is trying to protect the safety of the player doing the hitting.

Eric Legrand's hit is a perfect example of what this rule is trying to legislate against. He didn't hit Malcolm Brown in the head and neck area, he hit him in the shoulder and broke his collarbone. Unfortunately, he lowered his head, hit with the crown of his helmet and endangered himself.
 
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wisr01

All-Conference
Apr 13, 2006
8,351
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The targeting rule in college football is as follows ...

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact With the Crown of the Helmet
ARTICLE 3. No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of his helmet. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul. (Rule 9-6) (A.R. 9-1-3-I)


It defines "targeting" as ...

“Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball.

It further goes on to say "indicators" of targeting include ...

1. Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make forcible contact in the head or neck area
2. A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground
3. Leading with helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area
4. Lowering the head before attacking by initiating forcible contact with
the crown of the helmet

Everything else in the rulebook regarding "targeting" relates to hitting a defenseless player in the head or neck. That did not occur in this instance, so those portions of the rulebook are irrelevant to this particular play.

Okay, so we break it down. What must happen for a hit to violate this rule?

a) The player must target;
b) The player must make forcible contact;
c) The forcible contact must be with the crown of the helmet; and
d) There must be at least one of the indicators

Since they supply the definition of targeting, we can re-write (a) to say, "The player must take aim at the opponent for the purpose of attacking beyond making a legal tackle."

The term "crown" of the helmet is not defined anywhere else in the rulebook, other than one single place where it is described as the "top" of the helmet (Page FI-59). I found this image on Google and it shows what I always understood the crown of the helmet to mean ...



And, if you watch these two slowed down clips (below), I think we can all agree that Indicators 1 through 3 do not even come close to applying (they all require contact to the head or neck), so we can re-write (d) to say "The player must have lowered his head before attacking."





So for our discussion, the elements of the rule are:

a) The player must take aim at the opponent for the purpose of attacking beyond making a legal tackle.;
b) The player must make forcible contact;
c) The forcible contact must be with the top of the helmet; and
d) The player must have lowered his head before attacking.

I'd argue that Purdue's player didn't even come close to violating the rule, but the only element that isn't even debatable is (b); there was clearly forcible contact.

Did the player lower his head before attacking? I don't see it. His head is up the entire time. Does it slightly dip the last 6 inches before contact? Maybe.

Was the contact made with the top of the helmet? Looks to me like the contact is made with the top of the facemask and and/or the section between the facemask and the right earhole. The contact can't be made with the crown of the helmet because the railroad tracks that run down the center of the helmet are visible at the point the contact is made.

And finally, did the player intend to hit the player with the crown of his helmet ("take aim ... for the purpose of attacking beyond making a legal tackle") - an action that he knows will result in being thrown out of the game? Give me a break. Nobody believes this guy was intending to do something that would get him thrown out of the game. Sorry, the rule requires intent. It's always forgotten by the officials and the broadcasters, but I just quoted you the rule - if the player's actions were not taken with the purpose of violating the rule ("purpose of attacking beyond making a legal tackle"), then it's not a penalty. It's not enough to hit a player below the head and neck (remember, the rule is different if the contact is not with the ball carrier's head and neck) with the crown of your helmet ... the defensive player must intend to hit the ball carrier with the crown of his helmet.

This was not targeting. The officials made a BS call and it changed the dynamic of the game. I still think we would have won, but we definitely wouldn't have been able to run all over them using the Jabu-special for an entire quarter.
He hit him with the crown of his helmet after lowering his head prior to forcible contact = targeting. See how easy that was...
 

sunsetregret

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He hit him with the crown of his helmet after lowering his head prior to forcible contact = targeting. See how easy that was...

If you believe he intended to do so, then you believe it's a good call.

I believe he (a) didn't intend to hit him with the crown of his helmet, (b) didn't lower his head, and (c) didn't actually hit him with the crown of his helmet (all three required for it to be a penalty and disqualification), so I believe it was a BS call.
 

krup

Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
70,133
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Here, I'll help you. This is a screenshot of a page of the NCAA rulebook (LINK) ...

So they split it up differently than the earlier version I saw, which still does not change the meaning.

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact With the Crown of the Helmet is protecting the player doing the hitting. This is what the Purdue player violated.

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact to Head and Neck Area of a Defenseless Player is protecting the player being hit.
 
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Phi_1055

All-Conference
Feb 27, 2006
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“When in question it is a foul.”

“Some indicators of targeting include but are not limited to...”

If you don’t want to put your fate in the hands of officials who have to make a judgement call, don’t hit them helmet-first.
 
Feb 5, 2003
10,969
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Thanks for posting the videos and screen shot from the rule book. Barnes clearly lowered his head and initiated forcible contact with the top of his helmet. I don't know how you can watch the slow-mo video and not see what we see. The rule clearly states, "When in doubt, it is a foul." The fact that almost every other poster here sees it that way is an indicator that there is a lot of doubt that your view is correct.
 

sunsetregret

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Apr 2, 2018
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Thanks for posting the videos and screen shot from the rule book. Barnes clearly lowered his head and initiated forcible contact with the top of his helmet. I don't know how you can watch the slow-mo video and not see what we see. The rule clearly states, "When in doubt, it is a foul." The fact that almost every other poster here sees it that way is an indicator that there is a lot of doubt that your view is correct.

When I look at both views, I see the contact being made by what I would call the upper-right portion of the facemask. This is why the head twists to the left as the contact continues. That is not the crown of the helmet.

That said, even if you believe the contact was made with the crown of the helmet, by rule, you still have to believe he intended to make contact with the crown of the helmet in order for it to be a penalty (and disqualification). I don't. The guy was literally on the sideline crying when he got thrown out of the game. It's easy for the officials to just ignore the rule, as written, and just throw everyone out of the game because determining intent is messy ... and they (the officials) know nobody is ever going to chastise them for abdicating their responsibilities.

It's unfair to the players (including #55) and it is a detriment to the game.

You provided the evidence to refute your claim. Look at that.. he lowered his head and hit with the crown

I disagree. I think his head is up and contact is made with the facemask (directly on the ball, too).
 

tico brown

Heisman
Oct 16, 2005
44,100
14,124
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Last line of Article “when in question, it is a foul”
Yeah, theres no OOHH... MY BAD... DIDNT MEAN TO DO THAT provision. According to the rules, kid was guilty.

Now unless it was a hit that caused an injury (cant even say if it was an obvious hit because one can never be sure), there should be a 2 penalty limit on these calls per player. And instead of being out for one game, the player is out for two. Maybe a compromise but this is not 1980s football anymore.
 
Feb 5, 2003
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That said, even if you believe the contact was made with the crown of the helmet, by rule, you still have to believe he intended to make contact with the crown of the helmet in order for it to be a penalty (and disqualification).
I do not agree that intent is required according to the rule. Same with a facemask penalty. If a tackler inadvertently grabs a facemask while tackling the ball carrier and lets go ASAP, he can still be flagged for the penalty.
 

beaced_rivals

Heisman
Jul 18, 2004
32,005
10,324
0
I hope to have the memory you have 10 years from now, let alone 40 years from now. You are awesome!


When Hank Gola was growing up in Garfield, there was no greater legend than Benny Babula.
Babula owned a meat-distribution business in the Bergen County city. “We kids would go over to the place and marvel at how he would throw a big side of beef over his shoulders,” says Gola, a former sportswriter for the New York Post and New York Daily News.
But Babula’s legend was based on more than beef. In his high school days, Babula was the best football player in Garfield history. . . . .
That good memory runs two ways. There are memories that I would like to forget,but they still pop up from time to time. What is,is.
 
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CERU00

All-Conference
Feb 10, 2005
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You provided the evidence to refute your claim. Look at that.. he lowered his head and hit with the crown
Lol. And...by lowering his head as he approached his target he obviously INTENDS to use the crown of his helmet because that will hit first, not the facemask.
 
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sunsetregret

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Apr 2, 2018
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Yeah, theres no OOHH... MY BAD... DIDNT MEAN TO DO THAT provision. According to the rules, kid was guilty.

There most certainly is. The rule requires the defensive player's illegality (the illegal tackle) be "purposeful." He has to intend to commit a penalty.

Lol. And...by lowering his head as he approached his target he obviously INTENDS to use the crown of his helmet because that will hit first, not the facemask.

I don't believe he lowered his head. But for the sake of argument, let's say he did. He still has to actually make contact with the crown of his helmet in order for it to be a penalty. I also do not believe that is what happened in this particular instance; I believe impact was made with his facemask.

It's not enough to make impact with the crown of the helmet. And it's not enough to intend to make impact with the crown of the helmet. The rule requires the player both intend to make contact with the crown of the helmet and actually make impact with the crown of the helmet before it is a penalty. Now that may be what you see (and reasonable people can disagree), but I don't think either is evidenced here and and I also don't think it's even close. This is just a good textbook tackle - helmet on ball.
 

miker183

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Sep 13, 2014
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There most certainly is. The rule requires the defensive player's illegality (the illegal tackle) be "purposeful." He has to intend to commit a penalty.



I don't believe he lowered his head. But for the sake of argument, let's say he did. He still has to actually make contact with the crown of his helmet in order for it to be a penalty. I also do not believe that is what happened in this particular instance; I believe impact was made with his facemask.

It's not enough to make impact with the crown of the helmet. And it's not enough to intend to make impact with the crown of the helmet. The rule requires the player both intend to make contact with the crown of the helmet and actually make impact with the crown of the helmet before it is a penalty. Now that may be what you see (and reasonable people can disagree), but I don't think either is evidenced here and and I also don't think it's even close. This is just a good textbook tackle - helmet on ball.

He could have hit him with the shoulder, but he did not.

Now, I would agree that the ejection was harsh. But, unless they change the rule to allow for a lesser penalty, the ejection is the rule. You can argue all day, but it won't undo a call made 4 days ago.

Personally, I would like to see a lesser penalty as I love hard hitting defenses, but I disagree with your assessment that he didn't lower his head. I believe he did.
 

ScarletDave

Heisman
Oct 7, 2010
34,597
15,352
85
Here, I'll help you. This is a screenshot of a page of the NCAA rulebook (LINK) ...

Congrats, there are 2 rules not 1. Who cares why, if it so bothers you petition the NCAA. But by that rule, #55 on Purdue deserves to get ejected for targeting. Period
 

hoquat63

All-Conference
Mar 17, 2005
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Can we now start to argue whether that tackle on the knees of Sit should have been roughing?
 

beaced_rivals

Heisman
Jul 18, 2004
32,005
10,324
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Jeez... You da man!!! I'm an Shabazz (South Side) alum from 1990.
An old friend of mine,now deceased,was the Athletic Director at Shabazz for many years. JIM KUSHMERICK.Did you know him? If you are interested we can have a private exchange of information VIA CONVERSATION.BTW I was graduated from South Side in 1942.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
19,586
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Lol. And...by lowering his head as he approached his target he obviously INTENDS to use the crown of his helmet because that will hit first, not the facemask.
And I was a guy that said during the game and watching replays that I didn't think it was a flag. BUT.. that slowed down GIF has convinced me.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

Heisman
Sep 11, 2006
123,974
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Can we now start to argue whether that tackle on the knees of Sit should have been roughing?
clearly was.. you cannot target the lower legs like that... and if you watch the way the legs took the impact, it is clear to see why. An argument I had off that play was someone claiming Sit chose for that ball to end up where it ended up.. despite the evidence of what happened to his legs as he was releasing.... that argument is a clear case of wanting to say Sit made a bad decision or threw it poorly when there was a legit target in the area he could have hit with more zip on the ball.. which was probably what was intended.
 

hoquat63

All-Conference
Mar 17, 2005
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clearly was.. you cannot target the lower legs like that... and if you watch the way the legs took the impact, it is clear to see why. An argument I had off that play was someone claiming Sit chose for that ball to end up where it ended up.. despite the evidence of what happened to his legs as he was releasing.... that argument is a clear case of wanting to say Sit made a bad decision or threw it poorly when there was a legit target in the area he could have hit with more zip on the ball.. which was probably what was intended.
Was being facetious - not trying to start a debate!
 
Sep 29, 2005
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There most certainly is. The rule requires the defensive player's illegality (the illegal tackle) be "purposeful." He has to intend to commit a penalty.



I don't believe he lowered his head. But for the sake of argument, let's say he did. He still has to actually make contact with the crown of his helmet in order for it to be a penalty. I also do not believe that is what happened in this particular instance; I believe impact was made with his facemask.

It's not enough to make impact with the crown of the helmet. And it's not enough to intend to make impact with the crown of the helmet. The rule requires the player both intend to make contact with the crown of the helmet and actually make impact with the crown of the helmet before it is a penalty. Now that may be what you see (and reasonable people can disagree), but I don't think either is evidenced here and and I also don't think it's even close. This is just a good textbook tackle - helmet on ball.
Will you just stop. We get it. You don’t think it was targeting.