“Kentuckians are hillbillies”
Very clever. Never heard that one before.
Very clever. Never heard that one before.
Expectations vs reality
- Thread starter Cawood86_rivals
- Start date
Every single coach in the US? Or are Cal Haters the only ones too weak in the head to figure it out? Hyperbole is part of the business and every coach uses it. Most people are smart enough to figure that out.
Cal hater is a bit strong. I don’t like Cal but I’ll support him as long as he’s successfull
There's tradeoffs with every system.
Yeah we had some guys leave way before they should have. When a bunch of guys that think they are one and done, you are going to get some that think they are when they aren't and leave early. That's the downside to the system obviously.
The flipside to that is we've gotten to see some great basketball players over the course of the last 10 years. Sure, we've seen great players in the history of UK bball as well but things have changed, The best players don't want to stay in college. It's just different now than it was in the past.
If we didn't have the system in place, John Wall doesn't come. Maybe Anthony Davis doesn't come. Cousins, Towns, Booker, Monk, Fox and a parade of other players.
Yeah we had some guys leave way before they should have. When a bunch of guys that think they are one and done, you are going to get some that think they are when they aren't and leave early. That's the downside to the system obviously.
The flipside to that is we've gotten to see some great basketball players over the course of the last 10 years. Sure, we've seen great players in the history of UK bball as well but things have changed, The best players don't want to stay in college. It's just different now than it was in the past.
If we didn't have the system in place, John Wall doesn't come. Maybe Anthony Davis doesn't come. Cousins, Towns, Booker, Monk, Fox and a parade of other players.
But to me, that screams "communication problem". These kids had the wrong mindset when they came to UK, which is on Cal and they weren't given good information throughout their time at UK to make them understand where they are as far as next level destinations go. That too, is on Cal.
If you're John Calipari, how long do you allow this to go on before you put a stop to it? It’s as clear as day that these early departures are killing this program to the point where he can’t even schedule legit opponents in Rupp anymore.
It worked well when he was getting 3+ top shelf players every year, but he had to know that was fools gold, it was never going to be sustainable.
Is it not obvious to everyone here that you better bring a veteran team that has played together for multiple seasons to the court if you want to win big? Seems pretty obvious to me. Cal's model stopped working 6 years ago and it doesn’t help that he doesn't know a good offense if it landed on his face and bit him.
Either that or they were given good information while at UK and ignored it which I think is more likely the case.
Cal is normally very supportive of his players regardless what they do but every now and then you can tell when he speaks that there were players he thought SHOULDN'T go and yet did anyways.
Yeah I mean it's a balancing job that Cal will have to do to have sustained success here. You cannot have completely new teams year in and year out. I don't think you need to be here for 4 years but even Cal's best teams had key players return for say a 2nd year.
I don't think he needs to completely revamp his thinking. Just as I do not want to lose players who aren't ready for the NBA and start over every single year I don't also want to miss out on those superstar players that might go elsewhere if they think Cal isn't serious about getting them to that next level. So to me it's just something he needs to balance better going forward.
I just think it's easier for us to sit here and discuss it in hindsight. It's much tougher in his position when he doesn't know ahead of time who is going to jump and who isn't.
If Lamb and Jones jump, 2012 maybe doesn't even happen.
If Harrisons, Johnson, Lee, WCS or Alex jumps, 2015 doesn't happen.
But they didn't jump. They came back. Lots of people think players just go but there are instances of players returning and then........well you know the results those seasons.
The entire issue with all of this is you just never know who is coming back and who is leaving. But I guess that's why they pay him the big bucks lol
Theres no communication problem, those kids know where they stand in the NBA scouting process they just dont care and decide to take unnecessary chances because theyre 19-20 year old kids and sometimes their handlers make bad decisions too
There’s no communication problem or “poor” decisions being made.
There’s little evidence that leaving early and not getting drafted is a bad decision based on things like earnings.
It’s unfair for us to project our own values onto our players. Some of them might jusr value playing professional ball anywhere more than we understand.
We select the kids most eager to make the jump to the next level. If we market as “OAD U,” don’t be surprised if that’s what you get.
There’s little evidence that leaving early and not getting drafted is a bad decision based on things like earnings.
It’s unfair for us to project our own values onto our players. Some of them might jusr value playing professional ball anywhere more than we understand.
We select the kids most eager to make the jump to the next level. If we market as “OAD U,” don’t be surprised if that’s what you get.
What’s the definition of insanity? Isn't that something Cal tells his players? "Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results". Isn't that what Cal is doing? How much data does he need? I think we can count on one hand the number of good players that stayed more than 2 years.
Remember now, Lamb and Jones returned because there was an NBA lockout, no lockout, no sophomore Jones and Lamb.
Yup, the Harrisons and Dakari returned for a whole second year. Well that's great, but when you look at the teams that are winning titles, they have better seniors than guys we lost after just 2 years.
When guys leave because they have potential, it's just not smart to continue with this culture. Whitney, BJ, Vanderbilt, Orton, Teague, Young and Clarke came here for the NBA, it didn’t matter how bad they played, they were leaving. That’s a problem and the direct cause is the culture Cal created.
How is it we lose Hagans and EJ, but Baylor hangs on to Butler, Teague, Mitchell, Mayer, Vital and Thamba?
How is it we lose BJB, Teague, Dakari, Skal, Briscoe and Diallo, but Villanova hangs on to Paschal, Jenkins, Hart, Brunson, Booth and Bridges?
How does Cal expect to compete with teams that have high level juniors and seniors when he's rolling out a brand new team every year?
Just look at the rosters of the teams getting to the final four and winning titles, then compare those rosters to the thrown together ones Cal has been rolling out there. It’s not going to work.
You say it's not easy, yeah, I get that, so why is Cal making it harder than it already is?
With some guys, yeah, but if you're the guy managing the program, how the hell do you allow it to keep happening? Every time a guy leaves that should stay, we take a step back. Now Cal has to bring in another project player to fill the position, gets him halfway through his training, then he leaves. Rinse and repeat.
Can you imagine how good some of these guys would be if they stayed? Well, you don't have to imagine it, you just have to watch the FF every year to see the teams that have those players.
This is on Cal, he started and grew this culture and he's done nothing to fix the issue. In fact, he's doubling down on it.
If their isnt a communication issue, then Cal knows these kids are only staying 2 years max, even though they aren't NBA caliber, but he takes them anyway.
Either way you look at it, it's not good for UK.
Reading this thread just makes me realize that some fans need to really let go of the 90s era UK and everything it entails. That includes Rick Pitino's run and the 4 year player era. Because they clearly think that it's the norm and conveniently forget the 50 years around it.
Get rid of Cal today and there isn't a coach out there who is doing any better. Roy Williams and K MAYBE, but they're retired and not coming here anyway. Pitino isn't coming back, he left us willingly and he isn't recreating the 90s. Every other coach out there is putting up similar or worse results than Cal over any 5 year span.
Cal is the best chance you've got at resurrecting 2010-2015 or 1992-1998. There's no home run hire out there.
Get rid of Cal today and there isn't a coach out there who is doing any better. Roy Williams and K MAYBE, but they're retired and not coming here anyway. Pitino isn't coming back, he left us willingly and he isn't recreating the 90s. Every other coach out there is putting up similar or worse results than Cal over any 5 year span.
Cal is the best chance you've got at resurrecting 2010-2015 or 1992-1998. There's no home run hire out there.
Largely agree. But in fairness, had any of three officials been able to recognize a double dribble that Auburn team in 2019 would have probably won the national championship. And remember, they put an *** whoopin on North Carolina before they played us.
So, I guess google is wrong when it tells me the last 5 national title winners were loaded with juniors and seniors?
Heck, with the exception of UK 2012, every other title winner, for as far back as you want to look, had key juniors and seniors, yes, even duke 2015.
Yep, those teams are pretty good on those Final Four years with the returning talent. And then they drop off the earth for two years after because they have to rebuild.
Three teams went to the Final Four twice since Cal has been there. Villanova, UNC (and one of those should have been ours), and Gonzaga.
Roy Williams dropped off and retired. Wright had a good three year run and is currently sitting on two losses this year. Few can't win the big game.
Careful what YOU wish for. We sound exactly like an Indians fan base today. I’ve never heard so many excuses. I’m hoping the Cal first guys follow him to his next stop if we go in a new direction.
Yeah it's pretty crazy that when you compare Cal and UK against the ENTIRE FIELD OF NCAA TOURNAMENT TEAMS it's amazing just how often those junior and senior led teams get to the final four compared to us.
Are any of those programs UK?
Is UK the gold standard in college basketball or not?
Villanova won 2 titles in 3 years, Baylor won last year and is a threat to get there this year. uNC lost a hall of fame coach, but that guy had 3 titles to his name. He was in the title game 2 years in a row recently.
Know who's fallen off since 2015? UK. Who had a historically bad season recently? UK. Not Villanova, not Baylor, it was UK.
You mean to tell me Cal couldn’t keep good juniors and seniors on his roster every year? Why not, everyone else manages to do it, why can't Cal?
How can Alabama football be in the playoff every year and either win it all, or come damn close, but Cal can't maintain status quo? Nick Saban had to be given a raise to make what Cal makes and NS had 6 titles to his name when he got it.
Yeah, well, Cal is choosing a culture that isn't getting it done. That’s the point of this. Villanova and Baylor are going to keep putting Juniors and Seniors out there and they will continue to out perform Cal and his thrown together rosters.
Anyone that compares college basketball where alot of the top players opt out of the sport after high school, to college football where players are required to stay in school for 3 years before they can move on to the next level, is trolling and doesnt really believe the ******** they type
They were, but some were redshirted and mist of the rest were in thd program gor more than a year.
If Cal could get transfers to stick around for more than 1 year, he might have something, but that's not happening either.
Does Cal even know what a redshirt is?
I'm not trolling ****. There's a clear point there, if you don't see it, I'm not goung to explain it to you.
When Rick Pitino came back to Louisville, he thought he was so popular with UK fans that many would pull for him there.
Rick failed.
Cal has actually succeeded in having quite a few fans that seemingly are more loyal to him than to the program. Trust me, the program will not fall apart if and when he leaves.
Rick failed.
Cal has actually succeeded in having quite a few fans that seemingly are more loyal to him than to the program. Trust me, the program will not fall apart if and when he leaves.
We are. It's why our expectations are ridiculous compared to all of the teams you mentioned.
Villanova has done precisely nothing since a good three year run. UConn had one too. Should we have picked up Kevin Ollie?
Baylor has yet to do it. They won one title. Maybe we should get Scott Drew? He's been to one whole final four in his 18 year career, clearly he's the man to replace Cal, right?
None of those teams recruit like we do. It's easy to keep juniors and seniors on the roster when the NBA doesn't want them as freshmen and sophomores. For every one of those teams that make a final four once in ten years with their experience laden rosters, there are ten who had a disappointing year. You're comparing Cal against all of the teams, and it's an unfair comparison.
Alabama football can be in the playoffs every year because the NFL forces college players to stay on a roster for three years. The NBA is actively trying to destroy college basketball by setting up minor leagues for players out of high school and only forcing players to stay for one year. You don't think Cal wouldn't have more titles if we got to keep the 2010 team for three years? I don't even have to mention 2012 because our 2012 team would have had a junior Wall/Bledsoe/Cousins/Orton.
What coach are you getting to replace Cal today if you had to?
Allen's a sophomore man, did you think about that before you posted? You don't think he'll be a better player in 2 more years?
Also, to add on to my earlier reply to you with regards to your point about Cal compared to the rest of college basketball, just remember this, Cal is the one that chooses to be different. You don't get to use it as an excuse when it’s a choice. "we're young"
Please tell me some more one hit wonders that are outperforming Cal year in and out. Nova is the only argument you have. And last time I checked they beat Tennessee, a bunch of nobodies, and lost to the two other good teams they've faced this year. And years and years of second and third round exits and a Sweet Sixteen. Man that's exciting. They did make a Final Four in 09, so that's cool.
Three years of making the Final Four in 20 years of coaching for Wright.
And he's the first guy I'd call if Cal were fired tomorrow. The list only gets worse from there.
Villanova, Baylor and most other programs don't have to worry about the NBA poaching their players, because they aren't trying to win recruiting titles. They’re recruiting program guys and they develop them. Meanwhile, Cal is trying to win recruiting titles every year and he's losing to duke on a consistent basis. He's bringing in players that are nba potential guys, not college basketball players.
I find it interesting that when talking about UConn, you asked if we should hire Kevin Ollie, but you didn't bring up Jim Calhoun.
From what I'm seeing, the game has changed and since it changed, Villanova, Baylor, Gonzaga, Michigan, KU and Michigan State have adapted and are able to stay at a high level. Say what you want about Baylor and Villanova, but they seem to have found a method that works. Don't be surprised if those programs are in the top 5 every year.
You’re also seeing all these programs with young rosters (UK, duke, Memphis, Michigan etc… ) taking a beating by seemingly average teams. Winning with young teams is just not going to happen anymore. Maybe Cal (and you) will realize that some day.
You’re misunderstanding, I don't want Wright or Drew, give me Cal with a veteran roster.
Cal is the better motivator, but he's handicapping himself.
If I want to watch great players and not care about the team, I can watch the NBA. I want watch a great college basketball program that I care about and respect.
Let me do a quick check here (last 5 years since we're only talking about the mediocre Cal years):
Michigan State: 1 Final Four, no title
Baylor: 1 Final Four and a title that year
Villanova we've already gone over
Gonzaga: 2 final fours, no title
Kansas: 1 Final Four, no title, possible program crushing probation
Michigan: 1 Final Four, no title
You never answered my question about who you'd replace Cal with btw.
Considering we can't hire Mark Few, Scott Drew, Bill Self, John Beilein, and Tom Izzo to be some sort of coaching super-team, pick one.
Stop acting like any of those programs are just destroying the rest of college basketball. Might as well have brought up Loyola-Chicago and South Carolina.
Okay then.
So are you saying you'd rather not have 5 stars and just go for 4 star guys?
But I did answer your question. I don't want to hire another coach, I want Cal to adjust to the current college game and stop trying to force this one and done stuff.
Give Cal a roster that has been together for more than 2 years and he'll get to a final four more times than not. His program and motivation tactics work better than anyone else out there.
He tells everyone he's helping kids, but the kids he's helping, don't need his help, they're going pro because they have height, length and athletesism, not because Cal was their coach.
If I had to hire a new coach, give me the guy at Alabama. I love that style of play and if he ever gets the opportunity to coach a blue blood, he'll win big.
Of course, everyone's dream hire is Brad Stevens, but that probably won't ever happen.
I typed that before I saw your reply.
I agree that Cal would benefit from more roster retention. He can't force them to stay, though.
I think NIL is going to help with that.
That's exactly what I'm saying. These 5* kids are rated that high simply because they have NBA potential. Most of the guys Cal is getting, are unskilled, they were just taller and more athletic than the scronny high school kids they were playing against in hs.
Look at Bates, BJ, Collins, Mo Bamba, Edwards, Ben Simmons, the kid from Missouri from a couple years ago, Ball etc… they weren't anything special in college, because they're built for the nba game.
Now, there's a difference between a typical 5* and a legit transcendent or generational talent like AD, Zion, Barrett, Fox or Sharpe (Apparently), if you can land one of those kids, fine, but there's a reason Memphis and Michigan are struggling this year and there's a reason UK has been struggling in recent years.
Correct, he can't force them to stay and they keep leaving long before they are developed, so, in my opinion, it's foolish to keep doing this.
Hitting the reset button every year is not a recipe for winning titles at this level, not when there are 4 or 5 teams every year that are built like Baylor 21, Gonzaga 21, uNC 2016, uNC 2017, Nova 2016 and Nova 2018. Those teams have a cohesiveness that a young team will lose to more times than not.
In the 10 years that Cal has been here I've never once gotten the impression the players "don't care about the team or the program".
Why because they have dreams and want to get to the NBA as quickly as possible? That doesn't mean they don't care about the program. Most come back and most speak very highly of their time at UK. So I don't agree with this at all.